considering paleo, can I get your input?

squirrelzzrule22

I'm considering a 90/10 type paleo diet after doing some research. The primary reason is hormonal balancing. I suspect I have undiagnosed PCOS. I see my obgyn yearly and have discussed my issues, but they've never done an ultrasound which seems like the only way to conclusively prove anything. However, I was put on BC which I was told would manage PCOS symptoms if I did have it. My primary symptoms were mild cramping in the ovary area, cystic acne, anxiety, and low energy. All of my symptoms were mild and did not disrupt my life.

However, birth control ultimately made my acne worse and my anxiety terrible. I've just gone off BC for the first time in a few years and already feel so much better. But I do still have bad acne in some areas and my weight is holding very stubbornly at just a couple pounds overweight. I want to lose about 25-30lbs, but 20 would be a great start. So far just counting and maintaining a deficit of things I like is frankly not working, although getting my nutrients in check has definitely improved my energy. But I feel like I need to switch things up.

I've been doing research about the interplay between carbs and hormones re:insulin resistance, and I am curious to try a paleo diet to see if it reins in my hormone-related issues. Between that and going off the pill I am hoping to feel healthier and more energetic overall. There is a LOT of support for the paleo diet on the internet for helping women with all kinds of hormonal issues. Would love to hear from MFPers about their experiences.

ALSO- to those who are paleo, if I go with a 90/10 type deal (basically to allow myself alcohol some weekends, the occasional night out to dinner where I can guess at a good meal but not prep it myself, and small amounts of dairy and grains- think occasional greek yogurt or organic granola) does that totally defeat the purpose? Does it need to be all or nothing?

Thanks for your help!!

squirrelzzrule22

bumpbump?

cynthiamm67

I have been doing about 90% paleo for about 3 months. I don't eat grains potatoes or dairy, with the exception of not more than 1 nonfat greek yogurt a day. I don't drink anyway, so that isn't an issue for me. I don't worry about the little things like what might be grain wise in my salad dressings. Before I started I ate a ton of bread, mostly whole grains, but still tons of carbs.

I can't speak to the hormonal side, but I do have anxiety disorder that I take meds for. I can't say if it is better, but it definitely isn't worse.

I don't miss the bread, potatoes, pasta, etc so I don't really have any desire to do the cheat days or cheat meals, but my opinion is that anything done in moderation and mindfully is fine. If you want an occasional drink or granola, have it, and the watch to see how you feel. I've stopped having near daily stomach issues (undiagnosed allergies?), so I'm pretty happy with my progress. I can definitely do this for the rest of my life.

Feel free to add me if you want to look at my diary and get an idea of what I eat.

kgeyser

When I think PCOS, I think of a low carb diet more than paleo. And from looking at your diary, it seems like paleo would be a big change from your current diet, which could make adherence an issue. My suggestion would be to increase your protein and fat intake (both look low to me), cut back a bit on carbs, try to focus on eating more fruits/veggies, and give yourself a few weeks and see how you feel physically, whether or not you're feeling full after you eat, and how well eating that way fits into your lifestyle. You can always cut back from there if you feel like you need to and want to move towards something like paleo.

I would also talk to your doctor or get a second opinion. BC is one way of treating it, but if you are having insulin-related issues (possibly the cause of low energy), then there are medications that can help with that. I'm sorry you are going through this, BC wreaks havoc on my system as well.

squirrelzzrule22

When I think PCOS, I think of a low carb diet more than paleo. And from looking at your diary, it seems like paleo would be a big change from your current diet, which could make adherence an issue. My suggestion would be to increase your protein and fat intake (both look low to me), cut back a bit on carbs, try to focus on eating more fruits/veggies, and give yourself a few weeks and see how you feel physically, whether or not you're feeling full after you eat, and how well eating that way fits into your lifestyle. You can always cut back from there if you feel like you need to and want to move towards something like paleo.

I would also talk to your doctor or get a second opinion. BC is one way of treating it, but if you are having insulin-related issues (possibly the cause of low energy), then there are medications that can help with that. I'm sorry you are going through this, BC wreaks havoc on my system as well.

Thanks for your input! I do need to see a new doctor (I'm moving so that will have to happen this year anyways) but since my symptoms have been pretty mild compared to what many women deal with I haven't been too concerned. The impression that I got was since I am not particularly overweight my doctor wasn't too concerned. I can understand that if she sees a lot of obese women but it was definitely a bit dismissive.

Question though- you mention low carb RATHER than paleo, but my impression from what I've read is that paleo is fairly low carb. I was thinking of it as low carb with particular attention paid to whole foods/organic/grassfed etc. It would definitely be somewhat of a big change for me, but I think it is one I can manage, although I may try phasing into as you suggested.

Thanks!

snvelasco

I've been doing about 80/20 paleo all year and it's been a total game changer!! I also have problem skin and get terrible cramps, and have been on the pill since I was 16 for both, and both seem much better. But the best thing is that it's super easy to lose weight, and you don't even need to count calories that strictly, especially at the beginning (obviously without going crrrrrazy on nuts etc....)

The OTHER best thing is that cutting out sugar and grain really stops me feeling hungry all the time, which I attribute to my satiety signals functioning properly, which in turn makes it SOO much easier to be in control of eating well. I also noticed an improvement in the health of my skin and hair, thanks to all the good fats I've been scoffing down!

I would recommend doing super strict paleo for a month (no sugar, dairy, grain, alcohol), without worrying too much about calories, just to cut your addiction to sugar etc, and then once you're 'clean', you'll find you're fine to have the occasional treat, because seriously you start noticing how gross sugar and bread etc. make you feel (plus in my case how they both make me immediately want to eat everything in sight!) and the temptation reduces dramatically.

Good luck!!

cynthiamm67

I agree totally. I read somewhere that sugar craves sugar; it was certainly the case with me. The more I ate the more I wanted. BUT I still think it's psychologically easier to decide you will do the best you can, and not strive for 100% compliance. That way one isn't discouraged if there is a bad meal or a bad day. I ate chocolate for the first time in weeks while I was at Disneyland, was able to stop after a reasonable serving, and felt fine afterwards. YMMV.

TiberiusClaudis

Just making sure we are all on the same page, a paleo diet is more or less:

Lean meat
Non-starchy vegetables
Fruits and berries
Nuts
No refined sugar (except honey)
Very little or no dairy food (butter, milk, cheese, yogurt).
Very little cereal grains (maize, wheat, barely, rice, etc.).
Very little salt.

if we agree on that, then yes, that's the diet I'm on every 3 months for 3 months...so twice a year, as I move from my bulk to cut phase.

Does it work...YES. By far the most effect diet I've used. And like I said, I'm on it twice a year.

Also, I fine tune it a bit. I don't eat a lot of fruits as they have natural sugars in them (nature's candy) nothing wrong with them, just that vegs have more bang to the buck (lower carbs/calories) and I refrain from Nuts due to their higher fat content. Rather just get my fats from olive oil and fish oil.

Good Luck!

Higher protein will make you feel fuller. But it won't necessarily satisfy you. You have to be careful that you don't graze...like hit the refrig looking for choc milk or the pantry looking for pop tarts.

Mr_Knight

Question though- you mention low carb RATHER than paleo, but my impression from what I've read is that paleo is fairly low carb. I was thinking of it as low carb with particular attention paid to whole foods/organic/grassfed etc.

There are 800 billion different versions of "paleo" diets out there, so it depends on which fadmeister you're reading at the time. Our paleo ancestors didn't eat pastured meat but did eat grains and loads of carbs, so really, you can eat pretty much anything you want and still be "paleo".

They also likely had crap loads of salt intake from ingesting brackish water, but that's probably not pertinent at this point.

squirrelzzrule22

Just making sure we are all on the same page, a paleo diet is more or less:

Lean meat
Non-starchy vegetables
Fruits and berries
Nuts
No refined sugar (except honey)
Very little or no dairy food (butter, milk, cheese, yogurt).
Very little cereal grains (maize, wheat, barely, rice, etc.).
Very little salt.

if we agree on that, then yes, that's the diet I'm on every 3 months for 3 months...so twice a year, as I move from my bulk to cut phase.

Does it work...YES. By far the most effect diet I've used. And like I said, I'm on it twice a year.

Also, I fine tune it a bit. I don't eat a lot of fruits as they have natural sugars in them (nature's candy) nothing wrong with them, just that vegs have more bang to the buck (lower carbs/calories) and I refrain from Nuts due to their higher fat content. Rather just get my fats from olive oil and fish oil.

Good Luck!

Higher protein will make you feel fuller. But it won't necessarily satisfy you. You have to be careful that you don't graze...like hit the refrig looking for choc milk or the pantry looking for pop tarts.

yes, this was definitely my understanding of paleo. and the sources I read were specific to paleo for PCOS so perhaps those were more tailored to lower carb versions of paleo, but my understanding was that with carbs coming from fruit and veg primarily it is inherently lower carb. good advice not to graze, but I've personally never been much of a snacker, I use my cals on meals for the most part!

thanks for your input!

establishingaplace

You say that you're moving soon and will find a new doctor, so I'll skip the part where I tell you to find a new doctor. But I will say: don't diagnose yourself. Your symptoms could be due to any number of things. PCOS is a very broad term, symptoms and treatment really vary from one woman to the next. IME it can take years of trial and error (and sometimes wacky tests) to find the right course of action. The endocrine system is complex. I have PCOS, but I'm also hypothyroid and have mild adrenal insufficiency.

And BTW I think any doctor who prescribes the BC pill as treatment is a doctor you need to dump immediately. Regular periods is how I know I'm doing all the right things.

That said, if you do have PCOS, Paleo might fix you or it might not. Low carb might fix you or it might not. You may be ok just minimizing some things in your diet. I find that excess dairy gives me cystic acne, and excess refined sugars break me out like a teenage boy. But that doesn't mean I never eat cheese or cookies. I enjoy both now and again. I also limit soy because I'm hypothyroid, but again, I don't have to be completely soy-free to feel a difference. I get lightheaded on low carb diets - not right away but a few months in. Even if I did go low carb, it doesn't take care of my symptoms anyway. I have to take Metformin or my waist expands and my periods go AWOL. Oh, and stress. Stress destroys my energy levels, breaks me out, gives me digestive problems, and on and on.

TL;DR. Sure, try 90/10 Paleo. But don't diagnose yourself. Find a competent doctor who can work with you.

squirrelzzrule22

You say that you're moving soon and will find a new doctor, so I'll skip the part where I tell you to find a new doctor. But I will say: don't diagnose yourself. Your symptoms could be due to any number of things. PCOS is a very broad term, symptoms and treatment really vary from one woman to the next. IME it can take years of trial and error (and sometimes wacky tests) to find the right course of action. The endocrine system is complex. I have PCOS, but I'm also hypothyroid and have mild adrenal insufficiency.

And BTW I think any doctor who prescribes the BC pill as treatment is a doctor you need to dump immediately. Regular periods is how I know I'm doing all the right things.

That said, if you do have PCOS, Paleo might fix you or it might not. Low carb might fix you or it might not. You may be ok just minimizing some things in your diet. I find that excess dairy gives me cystic acne, and excess refined sugars break me out like a teenage boy. But that doesn't mean I never eat cheese or cookies. I enjoy both now and again. I also limit soy because I'm hypothyroid, but again, I don't have to be completely soy-free to feel a difference. I get lightheaded on low carb diets - not right away but a few months in. Even if I did go low carb, it doesn't take care of my symptoms anyway. I have to take Metformin or my waist expands and my periods go AWOL. Oh, and stress. Stress destroys my energy levels, breaks me out, gives me digestive problems, and on and on.

TL;DR. Sure, try 90/10 Paleo. But don't diagnose yourself. Find a competent doctor who can work with you.

I totally agree, but since my symptoms have never been too noticeable it hasn't been a high priority. If I was experiencing very concerning problems it would be something I would aggressively seek other opinions on. I am hoping that playing around with my diet can help in general. And to be fair, I was seeking BC for contraception and so it was kind of a "well this should take care of that as well if its an issue." But BC has turned out to be horrendous on my system in a number of ways. You are very right that the whole system is complex....I've come to believe that some doctors sort of recklessly prescribe BC to everyone as a cure all.

Thanks for the input!

Navtendon

Have you read The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson? He paints a much more common sense and accessible picture of paleo.

The word paleo gets thrown around with such variable context and sometimes not very reasonably. So a very common sense way of living gets looked upon like it's the funny farm. Sisson cleans a lot of that up.

_Terrapin_

A review of diets is provided below: Read and decide which makes sense for you.

http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-overall-diets?int=9ff509

Good luck.

persistentsoul

I have PCOS and was also put on various birth control pills by different doctors, what a nightmare that was, all made things worse. Acne and mood swings were worse on combined pill as well as progesterone only pill. I also bleed non stop on progesterone only pill and get break through bleeding on combined pill. When not on any pill i can go anywhere from 14 days to 67 days between periods. I feel better off the pill than on it though.

I have been doing ketogenic style of eating but incorporating Paleo aspects for last 7 weeks. I have found my skin is much better than usual and have lost weight more easily than usual, my energy remains low but I suffer from chronic fatigue and that may take longer to respond.

squirrelzzrule22

I have PCOS and was also put on various birth control pills by different doctors, what a nightmare that was, all made things worse. Acne and mood swings were worse on combined pill as well as progesterone only pill. I also bleed non stop on progesterone only pill and get break through bleeding on combined pill. When not on any pill i can go anywhere from 14 days to 67 days between periods. I feel better off the pill than on it though.

I have been doing ketogenic style of eating but incorporating Paleo aspects for last 7 weeks. I have found my skin is much better than usual and have lost weight more easily than usual, my energy remains low but I suffer from chronic fatigue and that may take longer to respond.

Sorry to hear what a struggle you have had! Its great to hear that diet has improved things!! I think your type of eating- low carb with incorporating paleo aspects when possible/affordable- is definitely what I am shooting for. Thanks for the feedback and good luck!!

martinel2099

For weight loss it doesn't matter what diet you do, it's about calories in vs calories out. If you are concerned about your health and just want to weed out some of the processed foods from your diet that's ok, I'd do it slowly and ease your way into it.

It's hard to cut out every processed food you love and enjoy, it'll make it hard to go out with friends or family to restaurants and your grocery bill is going to go up.

On the plus side, if your following paleo strictly that's less temptation, no double double white moacha on the way to work in the morning, and no taking advantage of the buy 1 big mac get a 2nd for a penny deal, which speaking of, I'd fail paleo every time this promotion came around. I also love ice cream.

squirrelzzrule22

For weight loss it doesn't matter what diet you do, it's about calories in vs calories out. If you are concerned about your health and just want to weed out some of the processed foods from your diet that's ok, I'd do it slowly and ease your way into it.

It's hard to cut out every processed food you love and enjoy, it'll make it hard to go out with friends or family to restaurants and your grocery bill is going to go up.

On the plus side, if your following paleo strictly that's less temptation, no double double white moacha on the way to work in the morning, and no taking advantage of the buy 1 big mac get a 2nd for a penny deal, which speaking of, I'd fail paleo every time this promotion came around. I also love ice cream.

actually, for PCOS and the other hormonal issues I mentioned macros can play a huge role because of the relationship between carbs and insulin resistance. it is an illness that makes simply cutting calories often totally ineffective. its not quite as simple for everyone. the only thing I don't want to cut out is occasional alcohol but I take your point that it is restrictive. I actually think it will help my budget significantly to stop ordering takeout!!

katehellon1

Hi

I have PCOS too.... and have always looked for a diet to help control it.

Last year I Discovered fitter foods ( they have a fb page) and webpage is called fitter london
they take on the paleo princple but not as strict but teaches you about nutrition and really good, I have a personal trainer who really supports the paleo diet so even if you change your lifestyle a little its an improvement ! Thats my take on it

katie x

martinel2099

For weight loss it doesn't matter what diet you do, it's about calories in vs calories out. If you are concerned about your health and just want to weed out some of the processed foods from your diet that's ok, I'd do it slowly and ease your way into it.

It's hard to cut out every processed food you love and enjoy, it'll make it hard to go out with friends or family to restaurants and your grocery bill is going to go up.

On the plus side, if your following paleo strictly that's less temptation, no double double white moacha on the way to work in the morning, and no taking advantage of the buy 1 big mac get a 2nd for a penny deal, which speaking of, I'd fail paleo every time this promotion came around. I also love ice cream.

actually, for PCOS and the other hormonal issues I mentioned macros can play a huge role because of the relationship between carbs and insulin resistance. it is an illness that makes simply cutting calories often totally ineffective. its not quite as simple for everyone. the only thing I don't want to cut out is occasional alcohol but I take your point that it is restrictive. I actually think it will help my budget significantly to stop ordering takeout!!

Definitely a good point I honestly don't know too much about PCOS. I wish you luck I hope you figure out something that you enjoy and that will help you reach your goals++++

Akimajuktuq

Best to ask your questions in the Primal/Paleo Support Group.

squirrelzzrule22

Hi

I have PCOS too.... and have always looked for a diet to help control it.

Last year I Discovered fitter foods ( they have a fb page) and webpage is called fitter london
they take on the paleo princple but not as strict but teaches you about nutrition and really good, I have a personal trainer who really supports the paleo diet so even if you change your lifestyle a little its an improvement ! Thats my take on it

katie x

Thanks for the input! I think my strategy will be tending towards paleo with some exceptions until I have done it for about a month....at that point I figure I should be able to tell if its helpful or not. Thanks!!

squirrelzzrule22

no reason to be a paleo-tard...it's an arbitrarily restrictive diet UNLESS you have a diagnosed allergy from a physician. To exclude a food primarily b/c "Grok" didn't eat it 10,000 years ago is absolutely retarded.

Please don't use language that is offensive to the disabled. Most of us learned not to use those words in elementary school. I can't control you, but I'd rather it not be on my thread!

I know the "caveman" idea sounds goofy but when you take a step back from the name, it is really just eating clean, getting good fat and protein, and getting your carbs from veggies rather than processed grain. Many nutritionists would advocate such a diet for people trying to lose weight, and for people with hormonal imbalances like me there has been some indication that it can alleviate those problems. I'm trying to get input on whether or not that's true. If you'd like to learn more about it I suggest researching beyond just the name.

To those that gave feedback thanks again! So far I have found myself annoyed by giving up cheese but other than that it is a pretty tasty way to eat and not as difficult as I was expecting. Tonight I'm making turkey meatballs....on pasta for the bf and with a side of veggies for me. All in all, not bad diet food! I'm going to stick with it about 80/20 or 90/10 for at least a month and see how I feel.

I will definitely check out the paleo group, thanks!

Barbellgirl

Here's a good article that might lend some balanced input. The support groups here are a good idea as well. There's even a few for ketogenic diet followers which might also be helpful.

http://www.modernpaleo.com/principles.html

aeb09

I have pretty severe PCOS. Been living a ketogenic lifestyle for 6 months and I've lost 60 pounds. I've dieted on and off my whole life and nothing ever worked until this lifestyle change. Love it, would not go back. Paleo might work, or you might still have some issues if you do have PCOS. Lowering sugar intake to avoid unnecessary insulin release is key in PCOS. It may take trial and error to find out what works for you.

squirrelzzrule22

I have pretty severe PCOS. Been living a ketogenic lifestyle for 6 months and I've lost 60 pounds. I've dieted on and off my whole life and nothing ever worked until this lifestyle change. Love it, would not go back. Paleo might work, or you might still have some issues if you do have PCOS. Lowering sugar intake to avoid unnecessary insulin release is key in PCOS. It may take trial and error to find out what works for you.

congrats so much on your success that is wonderful! thanks for the input.

robert5891

Show me the research not something from a paleo/primal-advocating site showing how wonderful it is...here is scientific backed research...
http://www.nsca.com/uploadedfiles/nsca/inactive_content/program_books/ptc_2013_program_book/aragon.pdf

no reason to be a paleo-tard...it's an arbitrarily restrictive diet UNLESS you have a diagnosed allergy from a physician. To exclude a food primarily b/c "Grok" didn't eat it 10,000 years ago is absolutely retarded.

Please don't use language that is offensive to the disabled. Most of us learned not to use those words in elementary school. I can't control you, but I'd rather it not be on my thread!

I know the "caveman" idea sounds goofy but when you take a step back from the name, it is really just eating clean, getting good fat and protein, and getting your carbs from veggies rather than processed grain. Many nutritionists would advocate such a diet for people trying to lose weight, and for people with hormonal imbalances like me there has been some indication that it can alleviate those problems. I'm trying to get input on whether or not that's true. If you'd like to learn more about it I suggest researching beyond just the name.

To those that gave feedback thanks again! So far I have found myself annoyed by giving up cheese but other than that it is a pretty tasty way to eat and not as difficult as I was expecting. Tonight I'm making turkey meatballs....on pasta for the bf and with a side of veggies for me. All in all, not bad diet food! I'm going to stick with it about 80/20 or 90/10 for at least a month and see how I feel.

I will definitely check out the paleo group, thanks!

Navtendon

Show me the research not something from a paleo/primal-advocating site showing how wonderful it is...here is scientific backed research...
http://www.nsca.com/uploadedfiles/nsca/inactive_content/program_books/ptc_2013_program_book/aragon.pdf

no reason to be a paleo-tard...it's an arbitrarily restrictive diet UNLESS you have a diagnosed allergy from a physician. To exclude a food primarily b/c "Grok" didn't eat it 10,000 years ago is absolutely retarded.

Please don't use language that is offensive to the disabled. Most of us learned not to use those words in elementary school. I can't control you, but I'd rather it not be on my thread!

I know the "caveman" idea sounds goofy but when you take a step back from the name, it is really just eating clean, getting good fat and protein, and getting your carbs from veggies rather than processed grain. Many nutritionists would advocate such a diet for people trying to lose weight, and for people with hormonal imbalances like me there has been some indication that it can alleviate those problems. I'm trying to get input on whether or not that's true. If you'd like to learn more about it I suggest researching beyond just the name.

To those that gave feedback thanks again! So far I have found myself annoyed by giving up cheese but other than that it is a pretty tasty way to eat and not as difficult as I was expecting. Tonight I'm making turkey meatballs....on pasta for the bf and with a side of veggies for me. All in all, not bad diet food! I'm going to stick with it about 80/20 or 90/10 for at least a month and see how I feel.

I will definitely check out the paleo group, thanks!

This is hilarious for 2 reasons.

1) If I were to only have OP (squirrelzzrule)'s response and that tunnel-visioned presentation by Aragon, Primal would be the easy choice. That's without including the fact that she conducts herself much more maturely than several others.

2) That presentation by Aragon gets thrown around this website alot like it's gospel. He conveys information above his level of expertise and delves into subject matter that he is not trained in (he has publically confirmed his credentials). This shows!! (to those who ARE trained in the material towards which he extends himself). He is a very convincing presenter to the uninitiated and does have extreme diligence in looking things up. But looking things up doesn't always equate to understanding them. This shows too. He certainly isn't wrong all the time and his arguments aren't way out in left field, but he extends his arguments and conclusions far beyond what they are actually supported by. Many of his reasoning points that I've seen in additional material of his actually have a false premise and are misleading to those with a background, but he is skilled at delivering anything strongly so he wins people over. Because of people who love being skeptical of anything contradictory to convention, including common sense, this man will always have work.

His reasoning and logic are just as loose as the theories he is trying to debunk. There is no conclusive evidence to really support ANY SPECIFIC lifestyle pattern because randomized controlled double blind trials are impossible for lifestyle issues and always will be - there are too many variables to control, and the effects must be monitored over a lifetime. Lock somebody up for 60 years, do your experiments, and then you may have a chance to get "conclusive" evidence. Many of us don't plan on waiting that long for such research to be approved and completed, so we have to default to well thought out subjectivity.

Just because there is no definite evidence to say any specific thing works does not give us permission to throw things that sound like common sense out the window. Just because there is no randomized double blind control study to say that bicycle helmets are safe doesn't mean we send our kids out on bikes without them.

OP was talking common sense and handled immaturity with maturity. Good job.

robert5891

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BMOjVYgYaG8

FredDoyle

2) That presentation by Aragon gets thrown around this website alot like it's gospel. He conveys information above his level of expertise and delves into subject matter that he is not trained in (he has publically confirmed his credentials). This shows!! (to those who ARE trained in the material towards which he extends himself). He is a very convincing presenter to the uninitiated and does have extreme diligence in looking things up. But looking things up doesn't always equate to understanding them. This shows too. He certainly isn't wrong all the time and his arguments aren't way out in left field, but he extends his arguments and conclusions far beyond what they are actually supported by. Many of his reasoning points that I've seen in additional material of his actually have a false premise and are misleading to those with a background, but he is skilled at delivering anything strongly so he wins people over. Because of people who love being skeptical of anything contradictory to convention, including common sense, this man will always have work.

His reasoning and logic are just as loose as the theories he is trying to debunk. There is no conclusive evidence to really support ANY SPECIFIC lifestyle pattern because randomized controlled double blind trials are impossible for lifestyle issues and always will be - there are too many variables to control, and the effects must be monitored over a lifetime. Lock somebody up for 60 years, do your experiments, and then you may have a chance to get "conclusive" evidence. Many of us don't plan on waiting that long for such research to be approved and completed, so we have to default to well thought out subjectivity.

Just because there is no definite evidence to say any specific thing works does not give us permission to throw things that sound like common sense out the window. Just because there is no randomized double blind control study to say that bicycle helmets are safe doesn't mean we send our kids out on bikes without them.

That's great except all you've done is attack the arguer(Aragon). You haven't addressed any of the points.
So, basically nothing but an ad hominem logical fallacy.

Navtendon

2) That presentation by Aragon gets thrown around this website alot like it's gospel. He conveys information above his level of expertise and delves into subject matter that he is not trained in (he has publically confirmed his credentials). This shows!! (to those who ARE trained in the material towards which he extends himself). He is a very convincing presenter to the uninitiated and does have extreme diligence in looking things up. But looking things up doesn't always equate to understanding them. This shows too. He certainly isn't wrong all the time and his arguments aren't way out in left field, but he extends his arguments and conclusions far beyond what they are actually supported by. Many of his reasoning points that I've seen in additional material of his actually have a false premise and are misleading to those with a background, but he is skilled at delivering anything strongly so he wins people over. Because of people who love being skeptical of anything contradictory to convention, including common sense, this man will always have work.

His reasoning and logic are just as loose as the theories he is trying to debunk. There is no conclusive evidence to really support ANY SPECIFIC lifestyle pattern because randomized controlled double blind trials are impossible for lifestyle issues and always will be - there are too many variables to control, and the effects must be monitored over a lifetime. Lock somebody up for 60 years, do your experiments, and then you may have a chance to get "conclusive" evidence. Many of us don't plan on waiting that long for such research to be approved and completed, so we have to default to well thought out subjectivity.

Just because there is no definite evidence to say any specific thing works does not give us permission to throw things that sound like common sense out the window. Just because there is no randomized double blind control study to say that bicycle helmets are safe doesn't mean we send our kids out on bikes without them.

That's great except all you've done is attack the arguer(Aragon). You haven't addressed any of the points.
So, basically nothing but an ad hominem logical fallacy.

Ad hominem is going after tangential aspects of the GUY to discredit him. I was going after what he DOES. Please re-read.

You can tell by my post that I obviously take exception to a hell of a lot of what he conveys (although there are things that he says that are certainly valid as well). You expect me to dissect his work piece by piece, and spill out things I learned in decades of school/training to provide context on a forum that wants to hear none of it? That's days, maybe weeks, of unpaid work. All that time and energy so that someone can post another misleading link or make some stupid comment to derail the whole train of thought??? People who volunteer their time like that are generous, but are also suckers who get their time wasted.

I'm happy to comment in a general sense to influence the general direction of where things go on a forum, but no, I will not do your homework for you.

A serious private message is another matter.