Bulk or Cut ? Need advice! Been thinking too hard.

va_01

Here is my situation, my apologies if this is coming off confusing.

I am currently 194 lbs, 6'2 at around 16% body fat (measured by a professional using calipers, though from a visual standpoint I feel this is fairly accurate). So my current measurements put me at around 163 lbs of LBM, and 31 lbs of body fat. My #1 goal is aesthetics. I have been tall/lanky/skinny-fat my whole life. And my initial action (and recommendation by others) was to do a slow, clean bulk immediately to gain mass, as it might offset the fat I carry and even lower my bf %.

I sit here now, after a long time of bulking (granted it took me a while to get the hang of it) to be where I am now. I feel like my arms are smaller (not big at all - 14.5 in flexed) in comparison to my trunk/chest (chest measures 40.5 inches), and I naturally carry more weight in my thighs and butt. (although my deadlfts and squats aren't that impressive relatively speaking to those on this site, as are my bench and other lifts). My waist is 34 inches, just above my belly button.

I have read everywhere that bulking past 12-14% bf is ill-advised, especially at 16%. My question for you is do you think I should take 8-10 weeks, shed off 10-12 pounds of fat, and get to around 12% bf, then start a bulk from there? I feel like, aesthetically, I am covering up any "muscle" I am gaining by a layer of fat. I don't think I'm where I am at size-wise to look super great after a cut, but I think it would give me a good base (12%) to start from, and build from there.

What are your thoughts on this? My original thinking was to continue slow bulking as I was, maybe get to 205-210 through the fall/winter, but probably would end up at 18% bf along the way. Then I would cut down to 12% that spring.

I'm not sure what to do. And I'm not sure how to implement this into my work out. I am currently, basically, doing ICF 5x5. I'm seeing tiny tiny strength gains, but set-back due to adjusting my form, range of motion, etc. I want to focus on BUILDING muscle, which I understand I won't do if I go on a cut. So should I keep the strength routine I have for another 2 months, then once I'm ready to bulk again, switch to a more hypertrophy routine?

Would cutting help my situation, as in make my arms look relatively larger with a slimmer waist?

Thanks for your help -- will be more than happy to provide more info if needed!

3laine75

You know the general guidelines which is to be lower bf% than where you are now BUT winter is coming (=D) and I am actually quite happy with the results I got bulking at above ideal bf%.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure my results could have been better if I'd got the bodyfat down more but I was sick of dieting and it felt like the right time for me. I am waiting till I'm at a better point, bf wise, next time but it can be done.

If you're not terribly uncomfortable it might be worth carrying on for a few months then cutting in time for spring/summer - I don't think anyone can give you a definitive yay or nay.

Another thing is (and I could be terribly wrong here) maybe try switching up from a strength to a more hypertrophy/bodybuilding type programme. The same as yourself, I stuck with my strength programme during my bulk but I'm seriously thinking about doing a more hypertrophy centred routine next time.

Springfield1970

Hey why don't you put some piccies up so we can see what you mean?

If I were you, because I love bulking sooooo much, especially over November December, I would keep bulking at 500 cals over maintenance, hitting the upper body and arms HARD! Enjoy my food and super strength and January 1st start a super slow bulk, whilst still enjoying nearly at maintenance foodz and maintaining strength. By summer you will be ready for world dominance.

From my experience, time spent in either phase goes really quickly and it's very hard to reach deadlines, so it's better to make them longer. I started cutting too late this year for my athletic goals and missed my spring training weight. Blame it on a late January Hawaii trip.

Also, try some new workout routines. I am focussing on glutes for the time being, and maintenance, but the plates keep getting added on week after week.

Springfield1970

.

Hopefullysane

bumping for the wisdom...

SXMEnrico

IMO you should do as the above poster suggested.

Do a lean bulk from now until the end of the year and then start your cut. By lean bulk I mean don't just eat whatever you want. Figure out what your maintenance cal total is. Add about 500cals.

Get about .8 - 1/g per lb of Protein. Fill the rest of your macros with Carb and Fats. Try to get your carbs and fats from healthy, whole food sources. Vegetables, nuts, etc.

Work out 3x per week. Go easy on your cardio. You don't want to unwind your gains. Keep track of your lifts so that you are progressively loading.

I'd also look into maybe switching your workout to a hypertrophy full body workout Here's an example: http://hypertrophyspecific.com/hst_II.html

In the example they do 10RM. You would do that, or a similar HST workout and start at 15RM. Repeat for 3 weeks, then switch to 10RM, then 8 and finally 5. That's 12 weeks total, which should take you to December. In December let your body decondition for 2 weeks. Watch your eating throughout the holidays and just maintain. Let your body recover.

Then Jan 1 restart the program, but up your protein intake to 1-2g/lb and lower your carb. Add cardio on your off days. Drop your carb intake or even do carb cycling with high carb on lifting days and low carb on cardio days. Eat at maintenance or just over. The idea is to drop 1-2lbs per week over the next 12 weeks.

Take about a week to figure out your program and what your true 15RM are for each exercise. Your central nervous system will be shot in the first few workouts. You may feel like throwing up, but your body will adapt quickly so don't give up.

MityMax96

Here is my situation, my apologies if this is coming off confusing.

I am currently 194 lbs, 6'2 at around 16% body fat (measured by a professional using calipers, though from a visual standpoint I feel this is fairly accurate). So my current measurements put me at around 163 lbs of LBM, and 31 lbs of body fat. My #1 goal is aesthetics. I have been tall/lanky/skinny-fat my whole life. And my initial action (and recommendation by others) was to do a slow, clean bulk immediately to gain mass, as it might offset the fat I carry and even lower my bf %.

I sit here now, after a long time of bulking (granted it took me a while to get the hang of it) to be where I am now. I feel like my arms are smaller (not big at all - 14.5 in flexed) in comparison to my trunk/chest (chest measures 40.5 inches), and I naturally carry more weight in my thighs and butt. (although my deadlfts and squats aren't that impressive relatively speaking to those on this site, as are my bench and other lifts). My waist is 34 inches, just above my belly button.

I have read everywhere that bulking past 12-14% bf is ill-advised, especially at 16%. My question for you is do you think I should take 8-10 weeks, shed off 10-12 pounds of fat, and get to around 12% bf, then start a bulk from there? I feel like, aesthetically, I am covering up any "muscle" I am gaining by a layer of fat. I don't think I'm where I am at size-wise to look super great after a cut, but I think it would give me a good base (12%) to start from, and build from there.

What are your thoughts on this? My original thinking was to continue slow bulking as I was, maybe get to 205-210 through the fall/winter, but probably would end up at 18% bf along the way. Then I would cut down to 12% that spring.

I'm not sure what to do. And I'm not sure how to implement this into my work out. I am currently, basically, doing ICF 5x5. I'm seeing tiny tiny strength gains, but set-back due to adjusting my form, range of motion, etc. I want to focus on BUILDING muscle, which I understand I won't do if I go on a cut. So should I keep the strength routine I have for another 2 months, then once I'm ready to bulk again, switch to a more hypertrophy routine?

Would cutting help my situation, as in make my arms look relatively larger with a slimmer waist?

Thanks for your help -- will be more than happy to provide more info if needed!

Similar to me...I was at my heaviest back around 2000 at 196 lbs

Ultimately it will be what do you want, it is your body and you have to look at yourself.

If I were in your shoes again, I would lift weights.....and cut....
try to hit ~10% BF

Good Luck

JoRocka

Well. Do you want bigger arms or do you want to look leaner?

I mean really that's the choice/decision.

My personal choice/thought would be get swoleson. You're arms are marginally bigger than mine (mine float around the high 12's)- so I'd say lift more.

But it's totally up to you- I like being balanced- I would want to wait till next year to even out- but again- totally up to you- bigger arms- or look leaner/more cut.

MagnumBurrito

Here is my situation, my apologies if this is coming off confusing.

I am currently 194 lbs, 6'2 at around 16% body fat (measured by a professional using calipers, though from a visual standpoint I feel this is fairly accurate). So my current measurements put me at around 163 lbs of LBM, and 31 lbs of body fat. My #1 goal is aesthetics. I have been tall/lanky/skinny-fat my whole life. And my initial action (and recommendation by others) was to do a slow, clean bulk immediately to gain mass, as it might offset the fat I carry and even lower my bf %.

I sit here now, after a long time of bulking (granted it took me a while to get the hang of it) to be where I am now. I feel like my arms are smaller (not big at all - 14.5 in flexed) in comparison to my trunk/chest (chest measures 40.5 inches), and I naturally carry more weight in my thighs and butt. (although my deadlfts and squats aren't that impressive relatively speaking to those on this site, as are my bench and other lifts). My waist is 34 inches, just above my belly button.

I have read everywhere that bulking past 12-14% bf is ill-advised, especially at 16%. My question for you is do you think I should take 8-10 weeks, shed off 10-12 pounds of fat, and get to around 12% bf, then start a bulk from there? I feel like, aesthetically, I am covering up any "muscle" I am gaining by a layer of fat. I don't think I'm where I am at size-wise to look super great after a cut, but I think it would give me a good base (12%) to start from, and build from there.

What are your thoughts on this? My original thinking was to continue slow bulking as I was, maybe get to 205-210 through the fall/winter, but probably would end up at 18% bf along the way. Then I would cut down to 12% that spring.

I'm not sure what to do. And I'm not sure how to implement this into my work out. I am currently, basically, doing ICF 5x5. I'm seeing tiny tiny strength gains, but set-back due to adjusting my form, range of motion, etc. I want to focus on BUILDING muscle, which I understand I won't do if I go on a cut. So should I keep the strength routine I have for another 2 months, then once I'm ready to bulk again, switch to a more hypertrophy routine?

Would cutting help my situation, as in make my arms look relatively larger with a slimmer waist?

Thanks for your help -- will be more than happy to provide more info if needed!

Similar to me...I was at my heaviest back around 2000 at 196 lbs

Ultimately it will be what do you want, it is your body and you have to look at yourself.

If I were in your shoes again, I would lift weights.....and cut....
try to hit ~10% BF

Good Luck

Ditto.

Bulk from 10% to 15%. Cut. Repeat

drepublic

Here is my situation, my apologies if this is coming off confusing.

I am currently 194 lbs, 6'2 at around 16% body fat (measured by a professional using calipers, though from a visual standpoint I feel this is fairly accurate). So my current measurements put me at around 163 lbs of LBM, and 31 lbs of body fat. My #1 goal is aesthetics. I have been tall/lanky/skinny-fat my whole life. And my initial action (and recommendation by others) was to do a slow, clean bulk immediately to gain mass, as it might offset the fat I carry and even lower my bf %.

I sit here now, after a long time of bulking (granted it took me a while to get the hang of it) to be where I am now. I feel like my arms are smaller (not big at all - 14.5 in flexed) in comparison to my trunk/chest (chest measures 40.5 inches), and I naturally carry more weight in my thighs and butt. (although my deadlfts and squats aren't that impressive relatively speaking to those on this site, as are my bench and other lifts). My waist is 34 inches, just above my belly button.


What are your thoughts on this? My original thinking was to continue slow bulking as I was, maybe get to 205-210 through the fall/winter, but probably would end up at 18% bf along the way. Then I would cut down to 12% that spring.

I'm not sure what to do. And I'm not sure how to implement this into my work out. I am currently, basically, doing ICF 5x5. I'm seeing tiny tiny strength gains, but set-back due to adjusting my form, range of motion, etc. I want to focus on BUILDING muscle, which I understand I won't do if I go on a cut. So should I keep the strength routine I have for another 2 months, then once I'm ready to bulk again, switch to a more hypertrophy routine?

I have been at your weight, then cut to 185, and if I had to do it all over again I would just stay at 200 lbs and lift weights and eat at or slightly above maintenance with a solid diet, and just transform at 200 lbs. Changes will be slow to you but I'm through with the bulk and cut. And besides..."Winter is Coming." Gives you plenty of time to grow your arms and lose fat.

I would add cardio sessions to burn the fat and take this into consideration for your maintenance calories assuming 200 lbs weight.

va_01

What does everyone think of the training program I'm on? (ICF 5x5). Should I switch into a more hypertrophy program?

Mixed responses on here. I am so confused now

JoRocka

What does everyone think of the training program I'm on? (ICF 5x5). Should I switch into a more hypertrophy program?

Mixed responses on here. I am so confused now

don't be confused.. it's personal choice.

pick a goal and plan a path that supports that goal.

va_01

Ok , so general consensus, is it smart to:

Stick with ICF 5x5 for 6-8 weeks, cut down around 10 lbs (About a pound per week). Then, after 6-8 weeks, switch back to a bulk, using a hypertrophy routine?

During the cut, I will try to keep my strength where it is now.

Is it normal to lose a lot of weight in the very beginning?

NRBreit

Just as point of reference, I am similar height as you and did a bulk last year. Here are my measurements bulked up and then cut:

Bulked - 186 lbs., 18% BF, 41" chest, 36" waist at navel, 15.75" arms, 23" thighs
Cut - 160 lbs., 10% BF, 40" chest, 32" waist at navel, 14.5" arms, 21.5" thighs

I was at 18% BF at the top of my bulk and I couldn't stand it any more. It was time to cut. I was really hoping for 175ish cut, but I'm still not there yet.

If possible, post up a pic so we can give you an objective view on where you are currently at.

_benjammin

Cut.
Keep your routine if you like it but don't switch to a hypertrophy routine on a cut.

va_01

Here's a link to a similar post I had around 3 months ago of a front photo of me. I look more or less the same.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6958851&d=1401119708

va_01

The thing is, strength really isn't all that important to me. I am focused on aethestics. I want to be lean, but "bigger" as well (i.e. fill out a tshirt). My arms and shoulders feel small ~for me~, but maybe they aren't, it's just fat covering them, showing less definition?

I just know that most of the time, strength = size and size = strength. The two have to go hand in hand, which is why I try to focus on something objective, like strength, rather than subjective, like size.

I just don't feel like I'm seeing any results with this "layer" of fat. To bulk more, would be to add on fat, and is it really smart to go up to 18% bf? Or is it smarter to go down to 12%, then bulk up from there? I know it all depends on what I want, but I still can't help but feel like there's a more productive route to take.

For instance, I want to see definition in my lateral delts. I want to see that ball shape on my shoulders. But it's just flat right now. That could be the lack of muscle, or it could be the fat covering it, as I see guys who are TINY with the same definition, albeit the muscle isn't as large. Same with chest definition, etc.

Does that make sense? Just an example.

NRBreit

You carry the 18% BF well. I see why you're confused. You could bulk or cut from where you're at. Why not cut until the holiday season and then go full scale bulk mode?

JoRocka

For instance, I want to see definition in my lateral delts. I want to see that ball shape on my shoulders. But it's just flat right now. That could be the lack of muscle, or it could be the fat covering it, as I see guys who are TINY with the same definition, albeit the muscle isn't as large. Same with chest definition, etc.

so cut.

va_01

The calipers measured me around 16%. I hold a lot of weight in my thighs and butt, (although they aren't that fatty, ironically, they are the most firm part of my body yet the heaviest in my opinion).

I just feel like I don't have enough mass to survive a cut and look good. I feel so small, yet so big at the same time.

Would you stick to ICF 5x5 while cutting? then go into a PHAT / PHUL routine when going back onto a bulk?

JoRocka

stop.
over.
thinking
it.


I wouldn't change anything in terms of my lifting routine if I like it. I do the same thing lifting while I'm cutting as when I am bulking.

I add some extra cardio and drop my calories while cutting- the lifting stays the same.

_benjammin

The thing is, strength really isn't all that important to me. I am focused on aethestics. I want to be lean, but "bigger" as well (i.e. fill out a tshirt). My arms and shoulders feel small ~for me~, but maybe they aren't, it's just fat covering them, showing less definition?
...

I just feel like I don't have enough mass to survive a cut and look good. I feel so small, yet so big at the same time.

Would you stick to ICF 5x5 while cutting? then go into a PHAT / PHUL routine when going back onto a bulk?

You'll look bigger leaner. Buy smaller shirts.
A full body routine on a cut will help you maintain what you've got. ICF 5x5 with all the accessories might be too much as you get leaner. You'll want to keep the compound movements, maybe cut some of the volume down to 3x5 and skip the accessories. Have you looked at MADCOW? Not ideal for a cut either but on my recent cut I was able to keep up with the squat and DL volume. I elminated accessories except for some random ab work and pullups. For my top sets of bench, row, and ohp I'd try to get at least 2 or 3 reps instead of 5.

NRBreit

Either way it's not a long term commitment. Just pick a path and commit to it for 15-20 weeks. It sounds to me like you're really after more definition, so you should probably cut first. You are not small by any means. You are at the very top of normal BMI range and if you truly have 163 lbs. LBM, you're gonna look killer cut up.

margannmks

Sorry didnt look at pic, but after reading everything youve said id say cut for the 6-8 weeks and do same program lifting progressively more, the only way your going to know if its the fat bothering you is to get rid of it. Then you can do maintenance for a couple of weeks change your routine to hypertrophy start bulking around thanksqiving to how ever long it takes to get closer to where you want to be and then go back to maintenance and carry on from there.

va_01

Thank you so much, everyone! Here's my plan, as I'm trying to keep it simple:

I currently eat ~3,900 cals/day, and gaining a roughly .5 a week (3 lbs a month).


I'm going to cut back my calories to ~3,200, as I believe my maintenance lies around 3,500. I will weigh myself weekly, aiming to lose no more than 1-2 lbs a week. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'll lose 5-6 lbs in the beginning, correct? Or is that something to not worry about)? I will keep my protein high (200 grams as I weigh 190) and cut down the carbs.

As far as my lifting routine, I will stick with my ICF 5x5 for the next 6-8 weeks (I hope to get to where I want to be by then). However, on major lifts that require 5x5, I will simple cut down to 3x5 or 4x5 if I'm feeling up to it. I will try to keep 3x8 for the accessory lifts. 2x8 if necessary.

At the end of all this, if all goes well, I hope to return to a bulk, using a strength/hypertrophy routine like PHAT or PHUL.


Does this sound like a good plan?

MityMax96

Yeah, prolly in the first week, it is possible to drop 5 - 10lbs due to water weight.

I just started doing Layne's PHAT program with my own tweaks......so hopefully it will benefit me during my bulk.

danielmbuckley

Good plan. Cut to see that hard work and then bulk, but not above 15%. It's all personal preference though.. but I definitely am happier when I can see some abs instead of feeling puffy even though I know I'm making gains.

Slow Gains = Win.

Unknown

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Tickwomp

Bulk until 15%, cut until 10%.

va_01

Thanks so much guys.

A question on my macros. I have cut down to:

3200 Calories

240 CARBS
240 PROTEIN
142 FAT

Does this look OK? I'm not sure if this is the perfect # for me to lose the right amount of weight on (I might need to lower by another 100-200 calories in a week or two).

I'm just nervous about losing muscle. I don't want to lose weight too quickly, and i'm worried I'll see a -5 lb drop on the scale right away, and it's all eating at my muscle. How do I ensure I am going slow and steady? This is my first cut, and I want to make sure I keep as much muscle as possible.

_benjammin

^That might work.
Fat seems way high. I would think you'd want fat less than 100 and more carbs.
Calories might be too high too.