Acceptable muscle loss when losing while lifting?

threnjen

Hi all,

I recently was working with a trainer who took my measurements and body fat % at our first session and at our last after 17 days. She and I worked almost exclusively with lifting. I exercise at least 4 times a week and spend about 45-60 minutes actively lifting and 30ish minutes cardio.

During the 17 days I lost 3.5 pounds (which was unexpected and more aggressive than my 1lb/week goal), but based on my body fat % difference, 2.5 of that was fat and 1 lb was lean muscle despite my constant lifting.

I am eating in a deficit (obviously, hence the weight loss) but she seemed disappointed in my lean muscle loss. I have another check-in with her in 4 weeks and she told me she'd like to see some muscle gains rather than losses. I am definitely a "newbie" to lifting so I suppose there could be newbie gains, but I'm a bit intimidated that she thinks I can build new muscle when I haven't even maintained what I have, and am eating at a deficit.

What should I expect out of my body as far as retaining lean muscle mass?

I eat plenty of protein; I am 135 lbs with about 96lbs lean muscle and I eat a minimum of 115g protein every day.

TIA!

ana3067

You won't gain muscle. Your calories are also not consistent (not even for net), and you are probably just not eating enough. Or you are over-training already, especially if you are not splitting up your lifting sessions into body parts. I.e. full body 4x a week is too much. And some people find that cardio reduces their muscle mass. You may want to try doing less cardio and only on rest days, and log all exercise; eat back all of them and if you find the losses are too slow, reduce that to 75%. Reduce until you find a good balance.

Calculate your maintenance needs (without exercise if you are eating back calories) from a sitelike health-calc.com or exrx.net and subtract 20% from that as your caloric deficit needs.

Also, unless she is using calipers and is measuring at the same time of day (morning upon waking), then the results are not going to be consistent.

threnjen

She is using calipers and measured at the same time of day both times after I had eaten the same thing, so it should be fairly consistent.

Lifting wise, the things she was teaching me were always focused as far as body parts, and now that I am no longer working with her I am working on the Stronglifts 5x5 program.

For my current calories, my baseline is using a sedentary/light TDEE averaged - 20% (because when I am not working out, I sit on my butt), and then I eat back 75% exercise calories, using a Polar HRM which I wear at all times when exercising. I'm not having any trouble with the weight loss portion of the diet. I have lost very steadily 1 lb/week for the last 4 months and this has only changed in the last 3 weeks since I joined the gym and changed up my exercise. I do 100% agree that I need to eat more with my new workout plans as I seem to be losing too much too fast now.
I actually find I have too many calories now on workout days (first world problems), so I'm probably going to switch to a TDEE-20% plan to eat the same every day. That's going to help me be consistent, but I'm already pretty consistent on a weekly basis.

I looked over the last week of my diary and I changed my goals yesterday which affects all previous diary entries, so that is annoying.


Mostly I am just trying to understand if it was really awful for me to have lost some lean muscle mass, and is it expected that I will lose SOME when losing weight even if I lift a lot? Will that likely be lessened if I find my new caloric level for 1lb /week (please do understand I have only belonged to the gym for 3 weeks; before this I had an extremely firm sense of how much I needed to eat to lose exactly 1 lb/week and had done so for 20 weeks running).
And of course, is there any credence to her expectation that I can gain any muscle on a deficit, because it was my understanding that this is pretty difficult.

ana3067

Honestly, the only way you won't lose any lean mass is if you are eating at a TINY deficit. But also remember. lean mass is not just muscle. So it could be that maybe you were retaining more water, or maybe she actually measured you in slightly different places. Lean body mass = everything except body fat, so there are lots of variables to consider.

I was doing TDEE-20% for the first few months, I just switched to net in the last month and I do prefer it. Gives me more freedom to exercise on a relaxed schedule, so that I'm not tied down to x minutes 4x a week.

Whenever I change my goals it has no effect on my previous entries. I just changed my goal for yesterday to 1950 because I was hungry and wanted an extra 100 cals, and then I dropped it back down and my goal for yesterday is still showing as 1950.

I do recommend figuring out your TDEE from a website like exrx.net or health-calc.com though because they are not drop-downs. Health-calc (advanced) also has a form you can fill out to mark out how many minutes/hours you spend at different activity levels to get a better idea of your energy expenditure. I plan on using it this week as much s I can actually, at least marking every time I sit for sure.

Sedentary on drop-downs is almost always too low, in my opinion/experience.

But yeah, outside of some possible noobie gains you are not going to increase much in muscle mass if at all. You need a caloric surplus for that. And since you are not overweigh or obese, you cannot rely on fat stores to help maintain muscle mass more easily.

Rely more on how your lifts change and on how your clothes feel and how you look in the mirror. I feel I've lost some tricep muscle myself, mostly because my arms feel a bit flabbier, and I've not been able to work out my arms all that well in the last few months due to tennis elbow which I have only just started going to physio for. But It's not a huge deal. If I can get down to my desired body fat range without losing a whole bunch of muscle mass then I can just work on putting it back on once I enter into the bulking phase.

Also you may want to consider doing 3x5 instead of 5x5 since it's a lot harder to maintain volume and intensity in a deficit. I'm about to switch to reverse pyramid scheme, doing 1-2 sets at 4-6 reps, then 1 at 6-8, one at 8-10 (reduce weight with each set). Was doing all at the heavy weight low rep range and that is partially the cause of my tennis elbow. Periodization and reduced volume are important when in a deficit, although both are good in general to minimize injury (periodization especially).

Sued0nim

I thought you should eat back all exercise calories if using a HRM because that's as close to accurate burn as you will get

threnjen

Honestly, the only way you won't lose any lean mass is if you are eating at a TINY deficit. But also remember. lean mass is not just muscle. So it could be that maybe you were retaining more water, or maybe she actually measured you in slightly different places. Lean body mass = everything except body fat, so there are lots of variables to consider.

True. The caliper measurements don't seem to account for water weight.

I was doing TDEE-20% for the first few months, I just switched to net in the last month and I do prefer it. Gives me more freedom to exercise on a relaxed schedule, so that I'm not tied down to x minutes 4x a week.

That's what I've liked about net so far too. With TDEE I will feel really obligated to not have a lazy week. Good thing? Bad thing? Not sure. TDEE has never appealed to me too much. I like eating my exercise calories

Whenever I change my goals it has no effect on my previous entries. I just changed my goal for yesterday to 1950 because I was hungry and wanted an extra 100 cals, and then I dropped it back down and my goal for yesterday is still showing as 1950.

Whoops, my mistake! I thought that if I increased my calories that it did that for all previous days. I see I was mistaken. I guess I just had some lean days earlier this week! Yikes.

I do recommend figuring out your TDEE from a website like exrx.net or health-calc.com though because they are not drop-downs. Health-calc (advanced) also has a form you can fill out to mark out how many minutes/hours you spend at different activity levels to get a better idea of your energy expenditure. I plan on using it this week as much s I can actually, at least marking every time I sit for sure.

Sedentary on drop-downs is almost always too low, in my opinion/experience.

I will take a look, thank you. I have a spreadsheet where I've used several calculators and then use the averages of all of their reports. I've used the health-calc.com one and it seems much higher than the others with all of its numbers, so I actually stopped including it in my averages. My averages were always pretty good before I joined the gym and changed my exercise But I need to do a recalc. It's fun to see the numbers on the scale drop really fast, let's be honest, but it's not a race.

But yeah, outside of some possible noobie gains you are not going to increase much in muscle mass if at all. You need a caloric surplus for that. And since you are not overweigh or obese, you cannot rely on fat stores to help maintain muscle mass more easily.

I agree. I am a little overweight for my height (only 5'1") but not a ton. I'm not sure how long newb gains last I guess. Is that what she is counting on? I am, like you, skeptical. I think I may have made skeptical face at her. I mean I've done my research and it's pretty clear that I need a surplus to bulk unless I'm still qualifying for my newb gains and who can really tell?

Rely more on how your lifts change and on how your clothes feel and how you look in the mirror. I feel I've lost some tricep muscle myself, mostly because my arms feel a bit flabbier, and I've not been able to work out my arms all that well in the last few months due to tennis elbow which I have only just started going to physio for. But It's not a huge deal. If I can get down to my desired body fat range without losing a whole bunch of muscle mass then I can just work on putting it back on once I enter into the bulking phase.

Also you may want to consider doing 3x5 instead of 5x5 since it's a lot harder to maintain volume and intensity in a deficit. I'm about to switch to reverse pyramid scheme, doing 1-2 sets at 4-6 reps, then 1 at 6-8, one at 8-10 (reduce weight with each set). Was doing all at the heavy weight low rep range and that is partially the cause of my tennis elbow. Periodization and reduced volume are important when in a deficit, although both are good in general to minimize injury (periodization especially).

I think I will be psychologically ok with stalling out on my increases. At some point I will need to prioritize fat loss over increasing my strength, and that's ok. If I stall on adding more weight at least I can keep lifting the same while I lose fat and keep my lean muscle. I can go back to strength increases when I am at my ideal body fat and ready for a bulk


Thank you very much for your responses, they have been very helpful.

threnjen

I thought you should eat back all exercise calories if using a HRM because that's as close to accurate burn as you will get

Polar and Garmin are both pretty darn accurate for solid state cardio. Not so much for lifting.

Eating back 75% worked for me for months, I am not claiming that is correct for everyone. It no longer seems to be correct for me now that I am investing a lot of time in lifting, where the HRM seems to under-report.

I preferred to eat back 75% to account for any errors in my food logging or recommended intake calculation.

heybales

There is no such thing as "lean" muscle, that's a cut of beef basically. Any site you see talking about lean muscle is silly, you can no more control that then you can control where you lose the fat first and last.
Some muscle has more fat in (encouraged with endurance cardio), some doesn't.

You have fat mass, and you have non-fat mass, otherwise called Lean Body Mass (LBM - because no fat in it). That's where the "lean" applies.

But LBM is EVERYTHING but fat - so organs, muscle, bones, water, ect.

You are starting from the wrong premise and discussion so far isn't about the right thing.

When you first start a diet, some of the initial water weight lost is sodium retained because usually people eat less sodium.
But other of it is less water stored with carbs in the muscle.

All of that lack of water is LBM.

Now, the water with carbs in the muscle did take energy to manage, so metabolism does drop with less of that to take care of.

But come out of the diet and eat up your carbs and gain 1-2 lbs of water weight - metabolism for that reason is back again.

Strength training is going to help retain muscle mass - with reasonable deficit and enough protein studies have shown all can be retained.

Make the deficit too extreme and despite using most of the muscle with lifting, some can be lost. Most used is last lost. Least used first lost.
Rather, with lack of calories some just doesn't get built back up to prior levels - body is always breaking down muscle, using it just tells body to build it back up.

heybales

I will take a look, thank you. I have a spreadsheet where I've used several calculators and then use the averages of all of their reports. I've used the health-calc.com one and it seems much higher than the others with all of its numbers, so I actually stopped including it in my averages. My averages were always pretty good before I joined the gym and changed my exercise But I need to do a recalc. It's fun to see the numbers on the scale drop really fast, let's be honest, but it's not a race.

For a best estimate of BMR based on BF% (measurement and skinfold and scale, ect averaged together), then TDEE based on what you actually do, check out the spreadsheet on my profile page.
Couple hundred using it successfully. Well, as long as they follow the guidelines, which about 20 did and reached goal.

It is TDEE method though, but perhaps you'll like the fact that lifting allows a bigger deficit.
The recommendations are based on desired amount to lose and activity done, and based on studies that showed retaining muscle mass. Not LBM, that should drop as you drop weight, but muscle mass.

FrankieTrailBlazer

The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”: Part 1 (of 6)
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=146

you may find this of interest.

threnjen

Strength training is going to help retain muscle mass - with reasonable deficit and enough protein studies have shown all can be retained.

Make the deficit too extreme and despite using most of the muscle with lifting, some can be lost. Most used is last lost. Least used first lost.
Rather, with lack of calories some just doesn't get built back up to prior levels - body is always breaking down muscle, using it just tells body to build it back up.

Thank you for your response. I didn't quote all of it for space reasons.
I think my deficit is simply too extreme, which is why she recommended I just eat more. I'm just losing too fast right now. What a weird problem to have. My old caloric baseline pre-exercise was 1350 (which was in line for my height and weight, I know it looks low to most people) but I am going to up it to 1450 and see how that goes.
It's hard for me to eat more when the scale has been so enjoyable for me lately (losing weight so fast!), but I need to be losing weight safely and maintaining my muscle mass.

threnjen

I will take a look, thank you. I have a spreadsheet where I've used several calculators and then use the averages of all of their reports. I've used the health-calc.com one and it seems much higher than the others with all of its numbers, so I actually stopped including it in my averages. My averages were always pretty good before I joined the gym and changed my exercise But I need to do a recalc. It's fun to see the numbers on the scale drop really fast, let's be honest, but it's not a race.

For a best estimate of BMR based on BF% (measurement and skinfold and scale, ect averaged together), then TDEE based on what you actually do, check out the spreadsheet on my profile page.
Couple hundred using it successfully. Well, as long as they follow the guidelines, which about 20 did and reached goal.

It is TDEE method though, but perhaps you'll like the fact that lifting allows a bigger deficit.
The recommendations are based on desired amount to lose and activity done, and based on studies that showed retaining muscle mass. Not LBM, that should drop as you drop weight, but muscle mass.

Thanks, I will check it out! I'm not averse to trying a TDEE method. It might feel nice to be able to eat a little more on non-lifting days
I love spreadsheets so I will definitely take a look at what you have put together!

threnjen

The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”: Part 1 (of 6)
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=146

you may find this of interest.

That was a really interesting article, thanks.
So with consistent weighing methods it is fair to say my body fat is actually decreasing, but she really cannot make these claims that x amount of it was muscle as opposed to water weight. And even if a method of measurement might be wildly inaccurate (she measures my body fat at a full 3.5% higher than my scale, but it doesn't matter to me as long as the numbers on each go down), a general downward trend is what is important to see. I don't worry about the number so much as long as it is going down.

So my plan for my next weigh-in: upping my calories to create a smaller deficit, and keep on lifting

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”: Part 1 (of 6)
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=146

you may find this of interest.

That was a really interesting article, thanks.
So with consistent weighing methods it is fair to say my body fat is actually decreasing, but she really cannot make these claims that x amount of it was muscle as opposed to water weight. And even if a method of measurement might be wildly inaccurate (she measures my body fat at a full 3.5% higher than my scale, but it doesn't matter to me as long as the numbers on each go down), a general downward trend is what is important to see. I don't worry about the number so much as long as it is going down.

So my plan for my next weigh-in: upping my calories to create a smaller deficit, and keep on lifting

Its a very good article to get people to understand how bad relying on these measures can be, I think prediction is the term that should be used, since getting your body fat "measured" is much more like a weatherman predicting the weather, and the image is better for people to understand how it works, there is much more info if you keep reading his linked pages. Everyone can remember the times the weatherman said the weekend would be clear and it rained...but most of the time he's relatively sorta, kinda on target.

Definitely do what you said above, keep lifting, keep protein high, and use both averages of weight over many weigh ins and how your clothes fit as the best indicators. Like any other data, more data points can increase accuracy, but body fat measure expense is so prohibitive, an occasional body fat measure I think is not very useful, and unless you are a competitive athlete, I think its close to useless.

I would much rather use data points which may be a bit less accurate, but can be taken very frequently to far surpass the accuracy of the sparse data points. Using body fat measuring may put you on a wrong track, which you won't find out it has done for long periods, or even ever if you don't do another 10 body fat measures to get a good average or your body type is significantly different than the average they measured against... Daily weigh ins, circumference measurements, lifting results and fit of clothes all become much stronger data very quickly.

heybales

I will take a look, thank you. I have a spreadsheet where I've used several calculators and then use the averages of all of their reports. I've used the health-calc.com one and it seems much higher than the others with all of its numbers, so I actually stopped including it in my averages. My averages were always pretty good before I joined the gym and changed my exercise But I need to do a recalc. It's fun to see the numbers on the scale drop really fast, let's be honest, but it's not a race.

For a best estimate of BMR based on BF% (measurement and skinfold and scale, ect averaged together), then TDEE based on what you actually do, check out the spreadsheet on my profile page.
Couple hundred using it successfully. Well, as long as they follow the guidelines, which about 20 did and reached goal.

It is TDEE method though, but perhaps you'll like the fact that lifting allows a bigger deficit.
The recommendations are based on desired amount to lose and activity done, and based on studies that showed retaining muscle mass. Not LBM, that should drop as you drop weight, but muscle mass.

Thanks, I will check it out! I'm not averse to trying a TDEE method. It might feel nice to be able to eat a little more on non-lifting days
I love spreadsheets so I will definitely take a look at what you have put together!

Which can aid in repair that is happening for 24-36 hrs. Eating more the next day.

threnjen

Which can aid in repair that is happening for 24-36 hrs. Eating more the next day.

Your reply here reminded me to check out your spreadsheet and I LOOOOOVE it! Thank you!

heybales

Which can aid in repair that is happening for 24-36 hrs. Eating more the next day.

Your reply here reminded me to check out your spreadsheet and I LOOOOOVE it! Thank you!

Forgot to mention just stick on the Simple Setup and Progress tabs normally. Confirm all the yellow cell sample data is deleted before putting your own in.

Well, HRM and Fitbit tabs may be useful too, but perhaps not with lifting.

7aneena

@threnjen you and I are the same height and BF%, and you are actually at my desired weight goal but I can see how at 28% you still want to lose some bf. I am not an expert by any means but it seems to me that you are over doing it in terms of cardio and not eating enough
I think if I was in your shoes (135lbs) I would concentrate on lifting because it is so close to goal and you can still lose fat/weight with a small deficit
Maybe go over your goals and numbers (BMR, TDEE, calorie goal) with your trainer? she should be able to help you figure this out

@heybales I'm tagging this for later so I can pick your brain if you don't mind. I have somewhat similar issue as the OP
I tried looking at the spreadsheet but got an error

heybales

@heybales I'm tagging this for later so I can pick your brain if you don't mind. I have somewhat similar issue as the OP
I tried looking at the spreadsheet but got an error

Just PM me if you downloaded as Excel or you have a Google account and copied as Google sheet in to your own account.

fivethreeone

You can safely lose up to 1% of your body weight per week, assuming your protein is adequate for your needs.

heybales

You can safely lose up to 1% of your body weight per week, assuming your protein is adequate for your needs.

So a body builder with current 7% BF weighing 240 lbs could go for 2.4 lbs weekly with a 1200 cal deficit to say a TDEE of 3500 (5 days lifting 1 hr and 5 days walking 30 min)? In other words a 34% deficit amount?

Actually, you didn't even clarify if lifting was needed in that safe loss, or what is safe about it, or what is adequate protein.

I'll agree 1% is decent starting place with certain amount of fat to lose, but the extremes prove out it's not universally a good recommendation without more facts.

fivethreeone

You can safely lose up to 1% of your body weight per week, assuming your protein is adequate for your needs.

So a body builder with current 7% BF weighing 240 lbs could go for 2.4 lbs weekly with a 1200 cal deficit to say a TDEE of 3500 (5 days lifting 1 hr and 5 days walking 30 min)? In other words a 34% deficit amount?

Actually, you didn't even clarify if lifting was needed in that safe loss, or what is safe about it, or what is adequate protein.

I'll agree 1% is decent starting place with certain amount of fat to lose, but the extremes prove out it's not universally a good recommendation without more facts.

When I said "you," I was speaking to the OP.

threnjen

@threnjen you and I are the same height and BF%, and you are actually at my desired weight goal but I can see how at 28% you still want to lose some bf. I am not an expert by any means but it seems to me that you are over doing it in terms of cardio and not eating enough
I think if I was in your shoes (135lbs) I would concentrate on lifting because it is so close to goal and you can still lose fat/weight with a small deficit

Hey! Good luck You can do it!

I don't do a lot of cardio deliberately, it's just because the gym is only a mile away, so I usually run there and then run (or briskly walk) home afterward. So it just kinda happens. And I am embarrassingly slow >.< So it takes me a while.

I've already started eating more (although haybales' spreadsheet told me to eat exactly what I was eating before, almost to the calorie, so that was funny. Can only assume I am underestimating my activity). I've added on 100 cal/day so I should not lose quite as aggressively.

I'm kind of torn between switching to .5lb/week vs being too vain, as I still want to lose a good amount, and there is a dress I would love to wear on Halloween if I happen to get there (but it is NOT a fixed "required" goal, just a hope). We also have a vacation in December and I want to look super badass in our vacation pictures. Vanity might get the best of me =/

7aneena

I've already started eating more (although haybales' spreadsheet told me to eat exactly what I was eating before, almost to the calorie, so that was funny. Can only assume I am underestimating my activity). I've added on 100 cal/day so I should not lose quite as aggressively.

I'm kind of torn between switching to .5lb/week vs being too vain, as I still want to lose a good amount, and there is a dress I would love to wear on Halloween if I happen to get there (but it is NOT a fixed "required" goal, just a hope). We also have a vacation in December and I want to look super badass in our vacation pictures. Vanity might get the best of me =/

Good luck, I am interested how things work out for you

Azdak

There is no such thing as "lean" muscle, that's a cut of beef basically. Any site you see talking about lean muscle is silly, you can no more control that then you can control where you lose the fat first and last.
Some muscle has more fat in (encouraged with endurance cardio), some doesn't.

You have fat mass, and you have non-fat mass, otherwise called Lean Body Mass (LBM - because no fat in it). That's where the "lean" applies.

But LBM is EVERYTHING but fat - so organs, muscle, bones, water, ect.

You are starting from the wrong premise and discussion so far isn't about the right thing.

When you first start a diet, some of the initial water weight lost is sodium retained because usually people eat less sodium.
But other of it is less water stored with carbs in the muscle.

All of that lack of water is LBM.

Now, the water with carbs in the muscle did take energy to manage, so metabolism does drop with less of that to take care of.

But come out of the diet and eat up your carbs and gain 1-2 lbs of water weight - metabolism for that reason is back again.

Strength training is going to help retain muscle mass - with reasonable deficit and enough protein studies have shown all can be retained.

Make the deficit too extreme and despite using most of the muscle with lifting, some can be lost. Most used is last lost. Least used first lost.
Rather, with lack of calories some just doesn't get built back up to prior levels - body is always breaking down muscle, using it just tells body to build it back up.

^^this. Also, 17 days is too son to reliably measure anything. This is a complete non-issue.

meerkat70

I thought you should eat back all exercise calories if using a HRM because that's as close to accurate burn as you will get

No. Take your sedentary cals off first. I normally work to about 60% of burnt cals, when I'm working out properly.

RHachicho

It's 17 days in all likelihood the vast majority of your lean mass loss is accounted for by your muscles releasing glycogen. When you are in a caloric surplus your muscles fill their tanks. And hold a lot of water to counterbalance it. But when you are running a negative calorie balance your muscles are a bit more conservative in how much fuel they ask for. This is why often at the start of a weight loss plan someone loses a lot of weight in a short amount of time. And this is also why someone who goes from a diet to a surplus or maintenance sometimes freaks out because they suddenly gain 2/3lbs. It's not fat but your muscles have decided there's enough energy to go around again.