Some questions about undereating & starvation mode

x_cylence_x

I keep reading on here about it being imperative that you get in your calories or your body will go into starvation mode (holding onto whatever calories you give your body, which will actually make you gain weight, and ultimately muscle loss)


My question is this: What about the ever so popular trend of anorexia & bulimia?
I've met a few in my time and they are some hardcore people. Eating nothing at all or at least very minimal amounts. Exercising 2-3 hours a day. How are they not fat? And how, if by exercising you gain muscle, would you lose said muscle by NOT eating your calories?




This just confuses me and for curiosity sake I decided to get everyone else's opinion. Please don't freak out on me, I'm very good at getting in my calories, but I'm just curious and I can't possibly be the only one who's ever asked this question to themselves...

Thanks!

AbbyRedwine

BUMP!

ssarv2021

Well if those people keep it up they will be dead by 35 and if you go into the "starvation mode" you may lose weight at that time, but then once you start eating the correct way again you will have a rapidweight gain!!

crazyeaCHANGED

Theres only so much that your body can compensate for lack of calories. These people have gone so far the other way that they lose to the detriment of their health. Instead of burning fat the body burns the muscle. It would be pretty hard to gain muscle without providing your body the fuel it needs to rebuild torn tissue.

adaramirez

I was definitely wondering the same thing. i have been under my calorie goal by at least 100 calories every day and working out an hour a day and i havent lost a pound....

littlelionesslove

I don't mean to start drama by any means (absolutely hate it...I work at a local live theater and there's plenty of drama there lol) but anorexia and bulimia are not trends...they are disorders.

Starvation mode...to me basically means the metabolism gets slower and slower. I have extremely slow metabolism, so even though when I log my calories and it tells me "If every day were like today you'd weigh Xlbs" I don't because my metabolism is so freakin' slow.

That being said...I have lost a lot of muscle. I used to do martial arts and could kick some @$$ but now, there is no way I could take on even a 10 year old. I basically spend hours on an elliptical machine burning calories, and have no tone. I'm okay with that really. Hope this kind of makes sense...I'm no professional. Just speaking from personal experience.

x_cylence_x

I realize it's a disorder, i stated trend because, just like it's apparently "cool" to be gay when you're younger (more specifically lesbian), it's becoming (or has been) a "trend" of younger people (and even some adults) to completely stop eating in order to lose weight.

So, I wasn't at all suggesting it's just a fad, but did mean it that way for this specific purpose.


Does that make sense?

x_cylence_x

Theres only so much that your body can compensate for lack of calories. These people have gone so far the other way that they lose to the detriment of their health. Instead of burning fat the body burns the muscle. It would be pretty hard to gain muscle without providing your body the fuel it needs to rebuild torn tissue.

If they are working out 2-3 hours a day... wouldn't that then rebuild the lost muscle mass? Or at least maintain what they already had?

littlelionesslove

Fo'sho girrrl. I call people like those "wannarexics" sometimes they do cultivate into disorders later on...but most of the time it's quickly grown out of. Thanks for clarifying

loganaw

Being someone that struggles with disordered eating - I can tell you, I have lost 30 pounds doing it this way. My net calories are generally anywhere from as low as 100 calories to no more than 800 calories a day. However, I do have binge days. I, in my opinion, believe that eating little to nothing will make you gain weight is a MYTH. The ONLY and I mean ONLY way you will gain weight is by having binge days from being so hungry from starving. Or, by increasing your intake too fast if you chose to eat normally again. Not from actually starving itself. And I can also tell you, I have GAINED muscle. My legs are so toned right now it is crazy. Muscle has replaced the fat that i lost. So no, you don't lose muscle. But then again, I have done a lot of cardio along with restricting so that could be why. The only way a person loses muscle is when there is no more fat to be lost, or if they quit using the muscle.

littlelionesslove

Being someone that struggles with disordered eating - I can tell you, I have lost 30 pounds doing it this way. My net calories are generally anywhere from as low as 100 calories to no more than 800 calories a day. However, I do have binge days. I, in my opinion, believe that eating little to nothing will make you gain weight is a MYTH. The ONLY and I mean ONLY way you will gain weight is by having binge days from being so hungry from starving. Or, by increasing your intake too fast if you chose to eat normally again. Not from actually starving itself. And I can also tell you, I have GAINED muscle. My legs are so toned right now it is crazy. Muscle has replaced the fat that i lost. So no, you don't lose muscle. But then again, I have done a lot of cardio along with restricting so that could be why. The only way a person loses muscle is when there is no more fat to be lost, or if they quit using the muscle.

exactly...I lost my muscle.

rileysowner

The best write-up I have read about this is here http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/81391-starvation-mode-myths-and-science

Points to Note:

Starvation mode does not start in a matter of hours or day, but requires a sustained several day fast (probably longer with some food consumptions)

Weight lost when in starvation mode is not all muscle, it is both muscle and fat

The problem with this is that when a person starts eating again (after prolonged extreme low calorie eating) they have little control and will eat and eat thus putting back on any weight they have lost.

Read the post I linked to, and stop being paranoid about Starvation mode. I frankly am sick and tired of people saying if a person misses a meal or eats less than 1200 calories one day or even two days, that they might go into starvation mode. It simple does not work that way. Even a 24 hour fast will not put you in anything even remotely like that, in fact and 24 hour fast with resistance training will burn pretty much just fat.

x_cylence_x

Fo'sho girrrl. I call people like those "wannarexics" sometimes they do cultivate into disorders later on...but most of the time it's quickly grown out of. Thanks for clarifying

any time hun, thanks for your input!

taso42_DELETED

If they are working out 2-3 hours a day... wouldn't that then rebuild the lost muscle mass? Or at least maintain what they already had?

Working out creates micro-tears in the muscles and depletes glycogen stores. The body then repairs the the muscles while you sleep. The carbohydrates fuel this process and the protein is the brick & mortar that build up the muscle. If nutrition side of things isn't there, those muscles will be flat as pancakes. When we work out, we're not building muscle; we're breaking it down. The building happens when we sleep using the fuel and protein from what we eat.

x_cylence_x

The best write-up I have read about this is here http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/81391-starvation-mode-myths-and-science

Points to Note:

Starvation mode does not start in a matter of hours or day, but requires a sustained several day fast (probably longer with some food consumptions)

Weight lost when in starvation mode is not all muscle, it is both muscle and fat

The problem with this is that when a person starts eating again (after prolonged extreme low calorie eating) they have little control and will eat and eat thus putting back on any weight they have lost.

Read the post I linked to, and stop being paranoid about Starvation mode. I frankly am sick and tired of people saying if a person misses a meal or eats less than 1200 calories one day or even two days, that they might go into starvation mode. It simple does not work that way. Even a 24 hour fast will not put you in anything even remotely like that, in fact and 24 hour fast with resistance training will burn pretty much just fat.

Thank you. And don't worry, I'm hardly paranoid, was just more curious than anything. There are days when I'm just not hungry and I won't get my calories in and I'm fine with that. I try to stick to the "Eat when you're hungry, stop when you aren't" philosophy.

Thanks though, that article did clear up a few things.

Hoffmandm

I am a nurse and had a patient who was anorexic. She had damaged her body for so long, not only did she go into starvation mode but her body quit absorbing anything. She was being fed through I.V.s and her body was still rejecting it. She eventually died of starvation. I was very sad.:sad:
Muscles use energy. They need fuel to grow. Food is your body's fuel. Metabolism is your body using energy. Without food, your muscles do not have the fuel needed to grow.
If you have seen anorexics, they are never muscular. If you see their muscles it is because there is no fat covering them. Their skin is thinner. They grow lanugo all over. (fine white hair that babies have in the uterus)
Most bulemics are not underweight like anorexics but that does not mean that they are healthy. Long term bulemics have cardiac, and stomach problems at the least. Their teeth become eroded. especially in the back, no matter how often they brush.
I could go on and on. There are many websites with this information. There are also websites promoting this behavior. You can see how thin and sickly these people are. For many of these people there is an underlying issue and not about weight, at first anyway. It is more about self-control.
See I am going on and on. I have read a lot about it.

scagneti

You cannot compare someone who is anorexic or bulimec to someone here who is undereating their calories by 500-800 calories. And here's why. Whereas someone who is either not eating or throwing up their food will consume ZERO calories (or very minimal like Logan), the people here who are starving themselves are still consuming calories -- often around 700-1000. That means that the body is still getting calories in and it's enough to barely maintain their organs and breathing, so the body holds on to the calories it is given and lowers the metabolism to make up for the lack of calories because it knows it won't likely eat ennough again for a long time.

Starvation mode doesn't mean that the body can go years or decades without consuming calories (like an anorexic or bulimec that you compared to). That's why there are people starving around the world. Of course people lose weight when they eat nothing -- then their organs stop working and they die. And once they start eating again, their metabolism is so shot that they gain weight right away and they have to lower their caloric intake even more, and the vicious cycle continues.

x_cylence_x

I am a nurse and had a patient who was anorexic. She had damaged her body for so long, not only did she go into starvation mode but her body quit absorbing anything. She was being fed through I.V.s and her body was still rejecting it. She eventually died of starvation. I was very sad.:sad:
Muscles use energy. They need fuel to grow. Food is your body's fuel. Metabolism is your body using energy. Without food, your muscles do not have the fuel needed to grow.
If you have seen anorexics, they are never muscular. If you see their muscles it is because there is no fat covering them. Their skin is thinner. They grow lanugo all over. (fine white hair that babies have in the uterus)
Most bulemics are not underweight like anorexics but that does not mean that they are healthy. Long term bulemics have cardiac, and stomach problems at the least. Their teeth become eroded. especially in the back, no matter how often they brush.
I could go on and on. There are many websites with this information. There are also websites promoting this behavior. You can see how thin and sickly these people are. For many of these people there is an underlying issue and not about weight, at first anyway. It is more about self-control.
See I am going on and on. I have read a lot about it.

My sister suffers from what I call mild anorexia. She eats very very little and on a vegetarian diet and works out upwards of 4 hours a day.... Her appearance on the outside is healthy, but I know better...

x_cylence_x

You cannot compare someone who is anorexic or bulimec to someone here who is undereating their calories by 500-800 calories. And here's why. Whereas someone who is either not eating or throwing up their food will consume ZERO calories (or very minimal like Logan), the people here who are starving themselves are still consuming calories -- often around 700-1000. That means that the body is still getting calories in and it's enough to barely maintain their organs and breathing, so the body holds on to the calories it is given and lowers the metabolism to make up for the lack of calories because it knows it won't likely eat ennough again for a long time.

Starvation mode doesn't mean that the body can go years or decades without consuming calories (like an anorexic or bulimec that you compared to). That's why there are people starving around the world. Of course people lose weight when they eat nothing -- then their organs stop working and they die. And once they start eating again, their metabolism is so shot that they gain weight right away and they have to lower their caloric intake even more, and the vicious cycle continues.

I guess I hadn't thought about it like that. Thanks!

taletreader

I realize it's a disorder, i stated trend because, just like it's apparently "cool" to be gay when you're younger (more specifically lesbian), it's becoming (or has been) a "trend" of younger people (and even some adults) to completely stop eating in order to lose weight.

So, I wasn't at all suggesting it's just a fad, but did mean it that way for this specific purpose.


Does that make sense?

Not really. Given I'm gay and had a friend 25 years ago (in secondary school) who nearly died from anorexia, I find your word choice quite offensive. You don't seem to be doing it intentionally, though, but if I may recommend something: an an attitude that would involve 15 min on Google or with the search function of this forum instead of expecting others to be at your service and explain would be a little more, let's say, egalitarian.

Anyhow, here it goes. The body is a complex system. There's always more than one thing going on. Imagine the relationship between your calorie intake and your body composition:

- If you eat more calories than you use up, your body will add fat storage and you will on the average gain weight (duh!).
- Lower the intake to match *exactly* what you consume (that's not really possible, but let's imagine you hit the exact figure over each day by chance), you will, again, on the average, maintain your weight.
- Lower a little and you will start using up reserves, including from fat (but also muscle, glycogen etc) and you will on the average slowly lose.
- Lower a little more (or work out more to boost calorie consumption) and you'll lose faster. However, at the same time your body will slowly adjust the metabolism to become a little thriftier.
- Lower further, or for some, just keep at the low level for a while, and your body will at one point, which depends of the individual, have lowered the metabolism enough for weight loss to become a lot less efficient or even stop. This is what people a little over-dramatically call starvation mode or famine response.
- Lower even more and of course your body HAS to come up with the calories that you consume from somewhere. Ultimately, as anorexics or starved kidnapping victims or concentration camp survivors can attest, you WILL lose all fat reserve and all expendable muscle and organ mass. And then you die.

Now I do think that people on MFP tend to be a little too much in awe of starvation mode -- for psychologically quite understandable reasons. Also, this exaggerated fear fosters a reasonable approach to calorie deficits. After all, if your deficit is JUST large enough to keep on losing steadily for a long time, you aren't depriving yourself, have an easy transition into maintenance & a sustainable lifestyle etc etc. This said, in reality when someone is complaining about eating at a deficit and not losing, any of the following could be happening:

- They over-estimate their consumption. Especially if they aren't weighting their food they may not have integrated correct portion sizes and eat easily 500 cal/day or more above what they think they eat.
- They over-estimate their exercise calorie burn. Anyone who started seriously overweight and out of shape and tells me of 1500 cal/day burns (like myself when I started!) is probably wrong.
- They are expecting results RIGHT AWAY and have not realized that weight fluctuates, by several pounds within days, simply from the body's management of fluids.
- They have also kicked up a serious bout of exercising that makes their muscles retain water. (I "gained" 2 pounds when my personal trainer stepped up my strength training, and for a week or more I was *up* while doing seriously harder work in the gym.)
- Or they *really* have put their metabolism to sleep.

ladyhawk00

Theres only so much that your body can compensate for lack of calories. These people have gone so far the other way that they lose to the detriment of their health. Instead of burning fat the body burns the muscle. It would be pretty hard to gain muscle without providing your body the fuel it needs to rebuild torn tissue.

If they are working out 2-3 hours a day... wouldn't that then rebuild the lost muscle mass? Or at least maintain what they already had?

You cannot build or rebuild muscle if you don't provide the building blocks (protein) with which to build it. That requires food.

What anorexics do is not starvation mode - it is a much more strict, extreme restriction of calories. Starvation mode is a range of cals that is JUST enough to prevent complete breakdown of the body's systems - generally over 500 cals. While many anorexics are dedicated enough to get to the point that they move beyond "starvation mode" (actually called adaptive thermogenesis), to the point that they are actually in a state of starvation (breaking down of all systems - hair, teeth, skin, heart, all muscle groups are broken down to provide fuel) - most people do not have the mental state to take it this far. Most anorexics are able to restrict/burn for a time, and then end up binging. Also, much of what they eat is carbs (due to the natural tendencies of the body, once you are in state of severe restriction, to demand carbs) - so it does not promote musle retention, it promotes fat storage. And, the extreme exercise actually breaks down more muscle tissue (because muscle is more readily available to turn into energy than fat). This is why there aren't that many anorexics that actually get down to a very low weight - most hover around a weight that is underweight, but not extreme. (Bulimia is a whole other topic - most bulimics are actually overweight or obese - that would take up even more space, but most bulimics do tend to stay in a state of adaptive thermogenesis, rather than actual starvation).

Basically, you can tone (strengthen) muscles that already exist, while in a caloric deficit; however, it is quite difficult to build muscle mass while in a caloric deficit, and impossible while in an extreme caloric deficit.

Hoffmandm

People who have the disorder never like to be told that they look too skinny, or unhealthy. They will just stop listening and shut you out and if you are trying to help, you will get nowhere.
It is better to be a friend.
I would be concerned about your sister if I were you. It usually starts out by just cutting calories lower and lower until they stop eating. The have what is called body dysmorphic disorder. The mirror doesn't matter. It is what they think they see that they will see.
http://www.anad.org/

x_cylence_x

I realize it's a disorder, i stated trend because, just like it's apparently "cool" to be gay when you're younger (more specifically lesbian), it's becoming (or has been) a "trend" of younger people (and even some adults) to completely stop eating in order to lose weight.

So, I wasn't at all suggesting it's just a fad, but did mean it that way for this specific purpose.


Does that make sense?

Not really. Given I'm gay and had a friend 25 years ago (in secondary school) who nearly died from anorexia, I find your word choice quite offensive. You don't seem to be doing it intentionally, though, but if I may recommend something: an an attitude that would involve 15 min on Google or with the search function of this forum instead of expecting others to be at your service and explain would be a little more, let's say, egalitarian.

Well, be offended, it was not my intention. Nor is it my expectation of others to be at my service. Not everyone is incompetent, I was asking everyone's opinion & thoughts, personal experiences. I thought that was what this board was about, so excuse me for trying to use it as such.


Thank you for your input anyways.

taso42_DELETED

Some good (and also some sad) info in this thread. What I am wondering is, how does this thread look from the eyes and mind of a person who is struggling with an eating disorder? Do they think, "oh that's bs.. they're wrong!" or "that may be true for some, but my body is different" (i.e., denial). Or, is it more like, "I know this is bad, i need to change this behavior, but it's so hard" (i.e, something like struggling with an addiction). Or something else altogether? It would help me, to understand the perspective. If anyone who has lived this or is living it can shed some light....

x_cylence_x

People who have the disorder never like to be told that they look too skinny, or unhealthy. They will just stop listening and shut you out and if you are trying to help, you will get nowhere.
It is better to be a friend.
I would be concerned about your sister if I were you. It usually starts out by just cutting calories lower and lower until they stop eating. The have what is called body dysmorphic disorder. The mirror doesn't matter. It is what they think they see that they will see.
http://www.anad.org/

Don't get me wrong, I am concerned about her, but I've watched her do this for nearly 15 years. She'll eat (minimally) based on her weight. 500-800 calories if she's over 135 and 800-1200 if she's below, but again... exercising upwards of 4 hours a day.

There is no talking to her about it, so the best I can do is just be there for her.

eellis2000

I was just thinking when doctors order blood tests for sugar, cholesterol, or surgery they make you fast for 12 hrs before hand, so it can't happen that quick. Just thinkin...

Tammysueless

If they are working out 2-3 hours a day... wouldn't that then rebuild the lost muscle mass? Or at least maintain what they already had?

Working out creates micro-tears in the muscles and depletes glycogen stores. The body then repairs the the muscles while you sleep. The carbohydrates fuel this process and the protein is the brick & mortar that build up the muscle. If nutrition side of things isn't there, those muscles will be flat as pancakes. When we work out, we're not building muscle; we're breaking it down. The building happens when we sleep using the fuel and protein from what we eat.

Well said.:happy:

x_cylence_x

Some good (and also some sad) info in this thread. What I am wondering is, how does this thread look from the eyes and mind of a person who is struggling with an eating disorder? Do they think, "oh that's bs.. they're wrong!" or "that may be true for some, but my body is different" (i.e., denial). Or, is it more like, "I know this is bad, i need to change this behavior, but it's so hard" (i.e, something like struggling with an addiction). Or something else altogether? It would help me, to understand the perspective. If anyone who has lived this or is living it can shed some light....

so far we've had 2 strugglers post and neither have seemed offended. They both provided some pretty good information about themselves and what they've experienced.
And I think the "my body is different" could be something else other than denial because, quite frankly, every body is different. *shrugs*

ladyhawk00

Some good (and also some sad) info in this thread. What I am wondering is, how does this thread look from the eyes and mind of a person who is struggling with an eating disorder? Do they think, "oh that's bs.. they're wrong!" or "that may be true for some, but my body is different" (i.e., denial). Or, is it more like, "I know this is bad, i need to change this behavior, but it's so hard" (i.e, something like struggling with an addiction). Or something else altogether? It would help me, to understand the perspective. If anyone who has lived this or is living it can shed some light....

It's been a long time since I was in a severe disordered eating state (both anorexic and bulimic, but at different times). So it's almost a little hard to try and go back and look at it through those eyes. But basically, I was not aware of the potential damage. Yes, I knew it was "bad", and not healthy, but had no idea of the extent of damage it could/would do. That said, even if I had known, at that point, I was young, full of immortality, and was easily able to deny that "that could happen to me." And above all, the desire to look a certain way (and the body dysmorphia that ensures you will never look "right", even if you get to your goal) supercedes all of that. In essence, in the mind, it's not worth living in the ugly, unsatisfactory body. The need to control the body, and the inherent lack of ability to do so (in the manner used), trumps everything.

jen0619

I was just thinking when doctors order blood tests for sugar, cholesterol, or surgery they make you fast for 12 hrs before hand, so it can't happen that quick. Just thinkin...

Yeah, it definitely doesn't happen that quick. It is over a prolonged period of time. I myself was on a clear liquid diet (no colors) for over 24 hours doctors orders and I am still fine. Just agreeing with your thinking.

littlelionesslove

Some good (and also some sad) info in this thread. What I am wondering is, how does this thread look from the eyes and mind of a person who is struggling with an eating disorder? Do they think, "oh that's bs.. they're wrong!" or "that may be true for some, but my body is different" (i.e., denial). Or, is it more like, "I know this is bad, i need to change this behavior, but it's so hard" (i.e, something like struggling with an addiction). Or something else altogether? It would help me, to understand the perspective. If anyone who has lived this or is living it can shed some light....

It's like both for me. I'll send you a friend request