Calories in, calories out

freerange

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/03/09/weight-watchers-finally-recognizes-calorie-counting-doesnt-work.aspx

For those that believe counting calories, and EVERYTHING in moderation is the end all to diet, read the above.

Galathea

Well, isn't that the reason why we track carbs, protein, fat, sodium and a lot of other things here too? Took them a long time to figure out that the nutrition counts too.
And you can bet, I will still have my choc, if it fits into my daily plan. So everything in moderation works for me.

jesshasredhair

Really great article! Been a fan of Dr. Mercola for a long time, even if i haven't heeded his advice as much as I aspire to :huh:

ShellyMacchi

well of course *LOL*
there has to be variety and balance.

if a person is only getting 1200 calories a day and still only eating chocolate cake to get those 1200 calories, they are doomed to crave and feel hungry and gain back anything they lose.

It's about healthy choices.. 'just' counting calories alone is not enough

christinet8504

I think (or hope) that most of us on MFP realize that if all you're eating is junk you're not going to get vary far. Thats why I love this site - it tracks EVERYTHING and encourages good food and a healthy/active lifestyle. BUT, that 100 calorie pack of cookies is a whole lot better than a whole BOX of cookies lol.

ShellyMacchi

I think (or hope) that most of us on MFP realize that if all you're eating is junk you're not going to get vary far. Thats why I love this site - it tracks EVERYTHING and encourages good food and a healthy/active lifestyle. BUT, that 100 calorie pack of cookies is a whole lot better than a whole BOX of cookies lol.

so true... so long as the 100 cal pack of cookies is a treat and not a daily staple *S*

sgk0411

makes sense to me.

crystal_sapphire

well yeah of course

jknops2

Well, I guess I am prodded in responding.


1. Mercola.com, another website who want to make money of your weight and health. If you want to trust them, it is you choice. I prefer the National Institute of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, etc.

2. There are two issues here, often confounded; weight and health.

3. For weight, calories in and calories out, basic physics, chemistry and biology. Nothing else matters, end of story. Of course if people cheat, you need to count the extra calories in, and that’s where the problem is.

4. Health, no question, diet matters. More fiber, more vitamins (to a degree), more nutrients, less saturated fat, less cholesterol, less simple sugars, are good for us. If Weight Watchers wants to combine weight and health, good for them, most of their users will benefit from that. Do note this is another company making money of weight loss, and for this company, it is making a lot of money of this. If you benefit from their structure, use it.

5. Having said that diet matters, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, health risk is being overweight. Lower your weight to a healthy range and you probably are getting more benefit from this fact alone, than anything else that you do in your diet. Recall the Twinkie diet:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Even on junk food, lowering you calorie input, you can lose weight AND get healthier.

6. So, yes, I stick to my story, eat in moderation whatever you want (but keep the servings small), lower your weight into a healthy range, and do choose healthy food whenever you can.

7. And note, for losing weight, you do not need to spend money; all you need is a website like this, count calories in and calories out. Get less in and you will lose weight. You do not need to pay companies like Marcola.com, Weight Watchers, etc.

8. And a final note, please do stay away from junk science like the Paleo diet, Blood Group diet, HCG diet, Homeopathy, etc. There is no evidence supporting any on them, at best they will help you, but none of their risk has been evaluated. And if they help you, it is a placebo effect. Drink a glass of water, stick a fork in your stomach, pretend you are a hunter/gatherer when you go to the grocery store, or whatever mimics their program, and pretend that you get the treatment. If you believe strongly enough, it will work, just as well as what they prescribe. And you will save a lot of money, with much less health risk.

jknops2

Mercola.com FYI:

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

freerange

Well, I guess I am prodded in responding.


1. Mercola.com, another website who want to make money of your weight and health. If you want to trust them, it is you choice. I prefer the National Institute of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, etc.

2. There are two issues here, often confounded; weight and health.

3. For weight, calories in and calories out, basic physics, chemistry and biology. Nothing else matters, end of story. Of course if people cheat, you need to count the extra calories in, and that’s where the problem is.

4. Health, no question, diet matters. More fiber, more vitamins (to a degree), more nutrients, less saturated fat, less cholesterol, less simple sugars, are good for us. If Weight Watchers wants to combine weight and health, good for them, most of their users will benefit from that. Do note this is another company making money of weight loss, and for this company, it is making a lot of money of this. If you benefit from their structure, use it.

5. Having said that diet matters, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, health risk is being overweight. Lower your weight to a healthy range and you probably are getting more benefit from this fact alone, than anything else that you do in your diet. Recall the Twinkie diet:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Even on junk food, lowering you calorie input, you can lose weight AND get healthier.

6. So, yes, I stick to my story, eat in moderation whatever you want (but keep the servings small), lower your weight into a healthy range, and do choose healthy food whenever you can.

7. And note, for losing weight, you do not need to spend money; all you need is a website like this, count calories in and calories out. Get less in and you will lose weight. You do not need to pay companies like Marcola.com, Weight Watchers, etc.

8. And a final note, please do stay away from junk science like the Paleo diet, Blood Group diet, HCG diet, Homeopathy, etc. There is no evidence supporting any on them, at best they will help you, but none of their risk has been evaluated. And if they help you, it is a placebo effect. Drink a glass of water, stick a fork in your stomach, pretend you are a hunter/gatherer when you go to the grocery store, or whatever mimics their program, and pretend that you get the treatment. If you believe strongly enough, it will work, just as well as what they prescribe. And you will save a lot of money, with much less health risk.

Hmmm, junk science, like the ever evolving FDA and of course we all know they have no ax to grind. LOL you funny guy. Weight loss is the end all to health? Really? tell that to the millions of skinny diabetics.

I'll ask you the same question I ask all the conventional "science" believers, what diet plan do you follow?

beckajw

Jknops2--I agree with everything you said. In sum, calories in vs. calories out is all that matters for weight loss. However, if your calories come from junk, you never feel satisfied and eventually cheat. When it comes to health (and helping yourself not to cheat), eating nutritious, whole foods matters. I'm an 80/20 supporter. I eat healthy 80-90% of the the time and allow myself to "splurge", "cheat" (whatever word you like to use--I don't go over my calories), 10-20% of the time.

The twinkie diet was eye opening for me. I still have trouble processing it. It was not a surprise to me that he lost weight--he was dieting (taking in less calories than he was using), of course he was losing weight. What surprised me was that his "numbers" got better too. Although, I'm not ready to embrace the twinkie diet (and he isn't advocating that you do), it did give me something to think about and supports my 80/20 rule (for myself).

Freerange--I don't think you really read Jknops post.

jwstew007

That "Article-Advertisement" is a bit misleading, jknops2 said it all

I've eaten healthy and with in portions for a month and dropped 31 lbs, 1700 cals a day is what I aim for, and nutritionally i shoot for 45% Protein, 45% Carb, and 10% fat a day.

freerange

Jknops2--I agree with everything you said. In sum, calories in vs. calories out is all that matters for weight loss. However, if your calories come from junk, you never feel satisfied and eventually cheat. When it comes to health (and helping yourself not to cheat), eating nutritious, whole foods matters. I'm an 80/20 supporter. I eat healthy 80-90% of the the time and allow myself to "splurge", "cheat" (whatever word you like to use--I don't go over my calories), 10-20% of the time.

The twinkie diet was eye opening for me. I still have trouble processing it. It was not a surprise to me that he lost weight--he was dieting (taking in less calories than he was using), of course he was losing weight. What surprised me was that his "numbers" got better too. Although, I'm not ready to embrace the twinkie diet (and he isn't advocating that you do), it did give me something to think about and supports my 80/20 rule (for myself).

Freerange--I don't think you really read Jknops post.

Why don't you think so?

lowpost42

I live with someone who proves that cals in vs cals out (thermic science) is trumped by hormones and biochemistry.

If it's cals in vs cals out, why do animals that hibernate get fat even though what they eat and the amount they eat doesn't change? Or why do they get fat when food supplies are in abundance, but also when they're scarce?

I believe cals in vs cals out is a factor - and may be a bigger factor for the average, generally healthy human. But it's not one-size-fits-all. Not even one-size-fits-most.

dlaplume2

This it like one or the Derrrr moment.

we all know that the quality of the calroies is what matters. It is all how you apply them.
if you have 1500 calories alloted for the day, and you eat 1500 cal in two meals as opposed to 3 meals and 2 snacks, which one has the most nutritional value?

It is all semantics. calories count just as much as they did yesterday. All he is says or in this case reaffiming is that the quality of the calories do matter.

Keep on going everyone.
Nothing has changed.

freerange

Mercola.com FYI:

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

I don't know the Dr, and have never been to his site before, I did however just read the link you provided. One thing I noticed there was no proof his claims are wrong, just illegal. The FDA has this way of making things illegal, without regard to if they are wrong or not, you do understand the difference,,,,,,,, don't you?

jwstew007

You do realize why it is illegal right?

If it works so well curing cancer then there should be no problem with providing proof.

freerange

You do realize why it is illegal right?

If it works so well curing cancer then there should be no problem with providing proof.

Realize or Know? Do you? Yes I know why it's illegal, and did it say curing or preventing? Do you trust everything the FDA tells you is ok to use?

freerange

You do realize why it is illegal right?

If it works so well curing cancer then there should be no problem with providing proof.

Has there been any proof provided that it doesn't work? Or is it illegal because the company has not jumped thru the FDA's hoops to prove it does?

jwstew007

"Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act, bans unapproved claims for products that are intended for curing, mitigating, treating, or preventing of diseases."

I personally think they should ban a lot more crap that is advertised as healthy when it is not, It is ethically and morally wrong to intentionally mislead people.

FDA doesn't need to tell me when someone is selling snake oil

freerange

6. So, yes, I stick to my story, eat in moderation whatever you want (but keep the servings small), lower your weight into a healthy range, and do choose healthy food whenever you can.

I checked out your profile, I see you are a biologist, also are pre diabetic. Here is a test for you,,,,, go on that Twinkie diet, you will lose weight, and in five years let us know how that diabetic deal is working for you?

A couple other observations, by your pics you don’t appear to be obese, and by your BMI chart you are not/ were not. So how did you end up as a pre-diabetic? Could it be you were following the Standard American Diet? Could it be that you still are, but in more moderate servings? I bet not, I’m sure you are a smart man, I bet you have cut down severely on sugar and refined grains. Am I right?

freerange

"Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act, bans unapproved claims for products that are intended for curing, mitigating, treating, or preventing of diseases."

I personally think they should ban a lot more crap that is advertised as healthy when it is not, It is ethically and morally wrong to intentionally mislead people.

FDA doesn't need to tell me when someone is selling snake oil

Good for you,,,,,, do you take vitamins?

jwstew007

I usually don't, but on occasions I do when I don't get enough potassium.

I thought I was having a heart attack once, heart was skipping beats erratically, after an overnight at a hospital, I found that I had deficiency in potassium. So when ever my heart starts skipping beats, I up my potassium, and it goes away.

There have been numerous scientific studies that back this

freerange

I usually don't, but on occasions I do when I don't get enough potassium.

I thought I was having a heart attack once, heart was skipping beats erratically, after an overnight at a hospital, I found that I had deficiency in potassium. So when ever my heart starts skipping beats, I up my potassium, and it goes away.

There have been numerous scientific studies that back this

Well sounds like you know how you want to live,,,,,,,, if it's not FDA approved or recomended it's not for you.

Have a good day.

I choose to not put all my faith into a governmential agency.

freerange

I usually don't, but on occasions I do when I don't get enough potassium.

I thought I was having a heart attack once, heart was skipping beats erratically, after an overnight at a hospital, I found that I had deficiency in potassium. So when ever my heart starts skipping beats, I up my potassium, and it goes away.

There have been numerous scientific studies that back this

By the way I read your profile, and I just want to say, good for you for making the choice to be healthy, and good luck, I wish you all the best.

jknops2

So, to respond:

1. First off, you need to mellow a bit. We can have a normal discussion, without making this, or taking this personal.

2. Secondly, for me, no diet plan, calories in calories out, that’s the bottom line. And if you want to diet follow this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/ That’s the most intelligent diet I have seen so far. And it is free, cost nothing, you can even download the book for free. But note this is basically calorie counting like I do.

3. Yes, about health, do read my post again. Nowhere did I say that for being healthy only calories, matter. But they do for your weight, calories in calories out, basic physics, chemistry, and biology. Nothing more than I can say.

4. FDA and conspiracies, please let’s move on. If you don’t trust evidence based medicine, and prefer to listen to the snake oil merchants, well there is not much else that I can say. And I do agree with other posters, if a person or a web site sells things claiming that they help you, and make money of this, they need to prove it. That’s the bar for pharmaceutical companies, why is it not required for alternative providers, who also make money of what they sell, including the weird diets, supplements, advice, out there?

5. Next, since you make in personal. Yes, I am a biologist, but not in any health related field, I am in ecology, I can understand science, but can only follow and understand the health related topics up to a certain degree.

6. And, no, re-read my post I do not advocate the Twinkie diet. There is your health and your weight. For your health diet matters, there is lots of evidence supporting this. For you weight, it is calories in and calories out. End of story. But your weight has a major influence on your health, lower you weight, and you can gain a lot, especially for cholesterol and diabetes, as shown by the guy on the Twinkie diet. And reading into the literature, I think that weight, for me, is much more important than my diet, which was fine before I got diagnosed with prediabetes.

7. And, even more personal, yes, my doctor told me I was prediabetic 5 months ago. The biggest factor in that is genetics; my cholesterol also has been borderline high for the last 5-10 years. But there is nothing you can do about your genetics, and in my case, it is not diet related, I always have eaten healthy, no pop, I rarely ate desert, or junk, etc. But, I ate a bit too much, and tracking it on this website, in my case it is peanuts, meat and bread. But the bottom line is, I gained 1-2 pounds a year over 20 years. And no, I was not obese, my BMI was around 28, now down to 22.5, and I am aiming a bit lower. Reading through the research available, if your genetics predispose you to type 2 diabetes, it is best to aim at the lower end of the healthy BMI number. so, for me, That's the amin thing that I can control.

8. So, in total, I am eating the same, just less. And my last blood sugar reading was 5 months ago. I lost 35 pounds since them, eat the same, just less, and my next blood sugar reading is 1 months from now, we will see at that stage where I stand.

9. So, bottom line, for weight, calories in and calories out. That’s how I lost 35 pounds, and went from a BMI of 28 to 22.5, nothing magical, just eat kess or exercise more.

pyro13g

Well, I guess I am prodded in responding.


1. Mercola.com, another website who want to make money of your weight and health. If you want to trust them, it is you choice. I prefer the National Institute of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, etc.

2. There are two issues here, often confounded; weight and health.

3. For weight, calories in and calories out, basic physics, chemistry and biology. Nothing else matters, end of story. Of course if people cheat, you need to count the extra calories in, and that’s where the problem is.

4. Health, no question, diet matters. More fiber, more vitamins (to a degree), more nutrients, less saturated fat, less cholesterol, less simple sugars, are good for us. If Weight Watchers wants to combine weight and health, good for them, most of their users will benefit from that. Do note this is another company making money of weight loss, and for this company, it is making a lot of money of this. If you benefit from their structure, use it.

5. Having said that diet matters, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, health risk is being overweight. Lower your weight to a healthy range and you probably are getting more benefit from this fact alone, than anything else that you do in your diet. Recall the Twinkie diet:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Even on junk food, lowering you calorie input, you can lose weight AND get healthier.

6. So, yes, I stick to my story, eat in moderation whatever you want (but keep the servings small), lower your weight into a healthy range, and do choose healthy food whenever you can.

7. And note, for losing weight, you do not need to spend money; all you need is a website like this, count calories in and calories out. Get less in and you will lose weight. You do not need to pay companies like Marcola.com, Weight Watchers, etc.

8. And a final note, please do stay away from junk science like the Paleo diet, Blood Group diet, HCG diet, Homeopathy, etc. There is no evidence supporting any on them, at best they will help you, but none of their risk has been evaluated. And if they help you, it is a placebo effect. Drink a glass of water, stick a fork in your stomach, pretend you are a hunter/gatherer when you go to the grocery store, or whatever mimics their program, and pretend that you get the treatment. If you believe strongly enough, it will work, just as well as what they prescribe. And you will save a lot of money, with much less health risk.

crapload of bad advice. Manage your insulin response. Learn how do do it., learn the purpose of insulin. And for goodness sake, stay away from the traditional food pyramid. It's driven by business and keeping people employed. Junk science, look to the food pyramid, Ansel Keys and the huge amount of disease that came along with both.

Calories in Calories out. :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

pyro13g

So, to respond:

1. First off, you need to mellow a bit. We can have a normal discussion, without making this, or taking this personal.

2. Secondly, for me, no diet plan, calories in calories out, that’s the bottom line. And if you want to diet follow this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/ That’s the most intelligent diet I have seen so far. And it is free, cost nothing, you can even download the book for free. But note this is basically calorie counting like I do.

3. Yes, about health, do read my post again. Nowhere did I say that for being healthy only calories, matter. But they do for your weight, calories in calories out, basic physics, chemistry, and biology. Nothing more than I can say.

4. FDA and conspiracies, please let’s move on. If you don’t trust evidence based medicine, and prefer to listen to the snake oil merchants, well there is not much else that I can say. And I do agree with other posters, if a person or a web site sells things claiming that they help you, and make money of this, they need to prove it. That’s the bar for pharmaceutical companies, why is it not required for alternative providers, who also make money of what they sell, including the weird diets, supplements, advice, out there?

5. Next, since you make in personal. Yes, I am a biologist, but not in any health related field, I am in ecology, I can understand science, but can only follow and understand the health related topics up to a certain degree.

6. And, no, re-read my post I do not advocate the Twinkie diet. There is your health and your weight. For your health diet matters, there is lots of evidence supporting this. For you weight, it is calories in and calories out. End of story. But your weight has a major influence on your health, lower you weight, and you can gain a lot, especially for cholesterol and diabetes, as shown by the guy on the Twinkie diet. And reading into the literature, I think that weight, for me, is much more important than my diet, which was fine before I got diagnosed with prediabetes.

7. And, even more personal, yes, my doctor told me I was prediabetic 5 months ago. The biggest factor in that is genetics; my cholesterol also has been borderline high for the last 5-10 years. But there is nothing you can do about your genetics, and in my case, it is not diet related, I always have eaten healthy, no pop, I rarely ate desert, or junk, etc. But, I ate a bit too much, and tracking it on this website, in my case it is peanuts, meat and bread. But the bottom line is, I gained 1-2 pounds a year over 20 years. And no, I was not obese, my BMI was around 28, now down to 22.5, and I am aiming a bit lower. Reading through the research available, if your genetics predispose you to type 2 diabetes, it is best to aim at the lower end of the healthy BMI number. so, for me, That's the amin thing that I can control.

8. So, in total, I am eating the same, just less. And my last blood sugar reading was 5 months ago. I lost 35 pounds since them, eat the same, just less, and my next blood sugar reading is 1 months from now, we will see at that stage where I stand.

9. So, bottom line, for weight, calories in and calories out. That’s how I lost 35 pounds, and went from a BMI of 28 to 22.5, nothing magical, just eat kess or exercise more.

Crap load X 2

freerange

Well gee where do I start, first of all I don’t think I made this personal, I read your profile because I like to know a little bit about who I’m talking with. Pointing out that you are a biologist and pre diabetic was only a reference point, biologist makes me assume you are at least passingly (is that a word) intelligent, and pre diabetic shows me where your diet has been up to this point. And that whole genetic thing, I would think as a biologist you would know that genetics isn’t the last word in your health, being predisposed does not mean preordained.

Your whole post is full of contradictions, first you say (Having said that diet matters, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, health risk is being overweight. Lower your weight to a healthy range and you probably are getting more benefit from this fact alone,) Then you say (Nowhere did I say that for being healthy only calories, matter. ) Which is it, does weight loss the = more benefit than any other factor, or do calories only, not matter? The fact is being overweight is a symptom not a cause, and as with most modern medicine we Americans have been conditioned to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Thus the calories in calories out syndrome, yes you will lose weight and yes that is good, and there are many health benefits from this fact alone. But are you truly healthy if you are eating the same foods as before just in smaller amounts? Have you really addressed insulin resistance by simply lowering the amount of processed sugar and simple carbs you take in? Being overweight does not cause diabetes, insulin resistance causes diabetes and causes overweight.


Next,,,, evidence based medicine? From the FDA? Like them saying hydrogenated oil is ok, that high fructose corn syrup is the same as fruit based natural sugars? That finfin is ok, shall I go on? Should I list all the side affects of the most popular drugs on the market today that has been declared “safe” by the FDA?

Snake oil merchants? Now who is getting personal? Are you accusing me of not having the wherewithal to decide what is snake oil and what is real? A very risky proposition when dealing with someone you don’t even know.

And back to the personal comment, if I’m not mistaking you said this (And a final note, please do stay away from junk science like the Paleo diet,) In your first post. Now I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t know there are a good many of us Paleo diet followers here (me being one of them) but intended or not you made this personal first, when you basically accused us of not being smart enough to tell the difference between the latest fad and a diet that provides all the health benefits of eating whole, natural, foods. Yes it may sound kind of funny, Paleo, Primal, Caveman, but if you would get off your, I’m a biologist, scientist, high horse and actually do some research you may come to a different conclusion.

And one last thing, Marksdailyapple.com is absolutely free, I have not paid one dime, all the information you need is on his FREE website. You can buy his book if you wish but there is no need to, because, like I said all the information is on line for the cost of your internet connection.

freerange

You know what let’s take this one step further. Let’s say you are right that Primal is a fad, is junk science, a placebo. You cannot deny that it works to shed weight, that is a fact, low carb diets work in getting rid of fat, period you cannot argue that point, there are too many science based studies that agree. So by your words, getting rid of weight is the biggest health factor, or something close to that. Wouldn’t you have to agree that primal is good for your health? If not please explain why not.