Can you lose fat and gain muscle?

End6ame

I personally did the Stronglift program for 3 months and saw no major improvement vs a regular workout.

Then you were doing something wrong. Diet, recovery, I don’t’ know, but the 5x5 method is supported by the biggest names in weight lifting (for strength not bodybuilding) and is proven to work over and over again.

You are not special, if it works for the powerlifters, strongmen, and Olympic athletes that train using it, then it can work for you.

FrenchMob

I personally did the Stronglift program for 3 months and saw no major improvement vs a regular workout.

Then you were doing something wrong. Diet, recovery, I don’t’ know, but the 5x5 method is supported by the biggest names in weight lifting (for strength not bodybuilding) and is proven to work over and over again.

You are not special, if it works for the powerlifters and Olympic athletes that train using it, then it can work for you.

Different goals obviously. I don't care how "strong" I am. If and when I do weight training, I do it for the appearance/size. You'll get stronger no matter what way you did it, just not as strong if you'd do it just for strength gains.

Also, just because Parker "inspired" Arnold to use 5x5, doesn't mean that's actually what got him to the size he was to win those Mr. Olympia titles. There's alot of propaganda in there without any references to back them up.

Finally, there's just no way you can isolate/strengthen the secondary groups properly with just those 5 compound exercises. Yes, they will get a workout, but far from their potential, which in the long run will cause imbalances and disproportions.

But if it's working for you, then good for you.

End6ame

Also, just because Parker "inspired" Arnold to use 5x5, doesn't mean that's actually what got him to the size he was to win those Mr. Olympia titles. There's alot of propaganda in there without any references to back them up.

You are right Arnold did isolation work to become a successful bodybuilder, but he was a power lifter first. You will not get muscle imbalances from compounder lifts, in fact, that is what compound lifts avoid. Arnold himself explains this in "Pumping Iron"

If isolation works better than compound, then I challenge you to find a person that can leg press 300lbs that is functionally (all around) stronger than someone that can squat 300lbs. You can't. because a leg press has a quad dominance, where *kitten* a proper squat hist quads, hams, glutes, adductors, abs, lower back, upper back, and the list of stabilizer muscles that you can't actually work in isolation goes on.

ganesha303

I can personally vouch for both losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time. The following are my results over 6 months of pure strength training without cardio. I lift three times per week for about 45min to an hour and perform only 5 lifts over the course of a week. Admittedly, fat loss is slower using only strength training. I could speed up my fat loss by doing cardio, but then I would also compromise my recovery and strength gains. Another factor is also the kind of lifting that you do. You need to stress you body HARD to pull this off with big compound muscle movements, bicep curls aren’t going to cut it.

Body Stats:
Body Weight = 246lbs - 225lbs (net loss of 21lbs)
BF % = 35% - 27% (lost 8% body fat)
Fat Mass = 87lbs - 60lbs (lost 27lbs of fat)
Fat-free Mass = 159lbs - 165lbs (gained 6lbs of muscle)
Waist = 44in – 40in (lost 4in off waistline)

These are really great results too! The good news is hard work and discipline pay off. I am more in line with Grglandr's way of thinking with regards to getting stronger. Do I want to look good? You bet! But even more than that I want to lift things and not worry about hurting my back. I want to swing my 5'10" wife around on the dancefloor like she is a rag doll. I want to pull a truck 100 miles uphill with my teeth. OK, maybe not that last one but you get the picture.

But I am also OK with Body builders and the goal of size. That is fine. I have more in common with you than couch potatoes anyway. That we have each found methods that work for us and we are realizing our goals is the most important things. That we can share our successes with others as we go is great too.

I came to this site last year and got inspired and have radically changed my life and I love to share my successes, now that I have something to share. Let's lift each other up (figuratively)!

SHBoss1673

Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.

With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.

So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.

Best of luck to you all!

This is a prank right?

SHBoss1673, No. It should be noted, like you said, my overall weight has increased during this time. I am also relying on an Omron scanner for BF %, so give or take some margin of error for that.

Essentially I am following the program from http://stronglifts.com/, and it has been effective for me as the site author claims.

Since you are skeptical, perhaps my math is wrong? I am certainly open to that, and would like to know if this is the case. Here is the detail I am using (Note, in looking back at my #'s, I started at 21.3% BF, not 23% - apologize for misreporting that):

I started at 218.5 lbs and 21.3% BF - LBM 172.5
today I weigh 232.2 lbs and 17% BF - LBM - 192.7

Do you see something wrong with my interpretation?

well, it's not impossible but, never seen anyone do anything even approaching those levels of gains before without anabolic steroids. Your talking 3 of 4 times the amount of muscle mass gains that a professional body builder expects to build in their bulking mode, all while making the kind of body fat reductions that those same body builders attempt when doing their cut phase. I mean I guess anything is possible, and if that's what happened, AWESOME. But this should NOT be used as an example as it's so uncommon as to be an anomaly if accurate.

Now, that being said, besides the amount that you gained (and lost), nothing you did counteracts my argument. I mean, you didn't lose weight in the process, so I'm not shocked about that.

It just seems like a monumental feat.

As the coach said in "The Program" : "It's not that hard to put on 25 lbs of RIP in the off season." As they show the dude jucing up in the back room

ganesha303

well, it's not impossible but, never seen anyone do anything even approaching those levels of gains before without anabolic steroids. Your talking 3 of 4 times the amount of muscle mass gains that a professional body builder expects to build in their bulking mode, all while making the kind of body fat reductions that those same body builders attempt when doing their cut phase. I mean I guess anything is possible, and if that's what happened, AWESOME. But this should NOT be used as an example as it's so uncommon as to be an anomaly if accurate.

Now, that being said, besides the amount that you gained (and lost), nothing you did counteracts my argument. I mean, you didn't lose weight in the process, so I'm not shocked about that.

It just seems like a monumental feat.

As the coach said in "The Program" : "It's not that hard to put on 25 lbs of RIP in the off season." As they show the dude jucing up in the back room

SHBoss1673, out of curiosity, have you worked with anyone on the SL 5x5 program? Also, please do not take me as approaching this negatively or behaving derogatorily you or anyone else here. I am juts looking to share, inspire and be inspired.

I am not sure how rare it may or may not be. It seems like a lot of people that share their stories from SL 5x5 program have more impressive stories than this. Though many of them are ectomorphs on the GOMAD program and are not doing the fat loss part.

I do assure that I have never used steroids of any sort. I am morally opposed to this. I do use creatine before my workout and glutamine after (both completely legal and available over the counter all over and commonly used by strength trainers). The author of the StrongLifts program says that a lot of people on the program get accused of steroid use because of their rapid progress through progressive loading and high protein diets, especially in the beginning.

If I am a freak of nature, I will take it. However, I'm sure at my early phase lifting I probably do have impressive results next to experienced body builders with 10% or less BF and huge muscle mass. I can already see myself start to stall on a couple exercises and know I will have to fight harder for my strength gains. I certainly do not expect to get another 20lbs over the next 5-6 months. ( I do hope to get down to 14% BF though)

The main reason I wanted to post my story here is I used to get so disempowered when people would say I could not build muscle and lose fat over the same period. I thought I should do lots of cardio to kill off the fat first, and must have lost lots of muscle mass in the process. Since discovering stronglifts I have felt empowered, motivated and made a huge difference in my strength, self esteem and appearance in ways I did not achieve before. I hope I have inspired or empowered someone out there, as others successes have inspired me.

freerange

I feel I need to correct something here; When I said I should not see the “beginner” Loss of fat and gain of muscle, I was not meaning I was no longer a beginner. What I meant was, in most of the links I provided (I think all of them) they said it was easy to lose fat and gain muscle (at the same time) when you first start out. I mentioned, that probably would not (might not) happen to me, because I have already been on a weight lifting program (all be it modest) and have already lost some weight(half way to goal). So that first flush fat loss and muscle gain may not happen. I will be doing an experiment by getting my body fat% taken in a bod pod, and use the low carb approach mentioned in the second link, lots of protein and fats, low carbohydrates, turn my body onto burning fat for energy instead of carbs. After 2 months, get my % done again and see if there is any noticeable fat% loss and lean muscle gain.

Just as an aside I am no stranger to weight lifting or body building, it’s just been years since I was in any kind of good shape and I’m working my way back. My goal is to be close to the body composition I was in my twenties when I turn 50, next year. So far I’m well on my way to dropping the fat, and I’m slowly getting my muscles and joints used to lifting again. Soon I will start hitting the weights with the intensity I know is needed to really show gains in strength and size, I’m just not comfortable pushing it that hard yet, for fear of injury.

So really, calling what I said BS, is nothing more than puffing out your chest where it’s not needed. You could be right I might drop a ton of fat and gain just as much muscle in the first two months, because I am a beginner. If that happens and I all of a sudden stop losing fat and gaining muscle I will report that too.

End6ame

But I am also OK with Body builders and the goal of size. 

I am not :-)  I know my opinion doesn't matter to anyone, and it shouldn't if you are secure in your goals and training. 

Strong bodybuilders, like Jay Cutler, the ones that actually put in the hard work, are fine with me, but trying to appear strong without actually being strong is idiocy to me. If you want to continue to fuel the body image issues that our society has and your only goal is to look like an Abercrombie model then enjoy your nice easy training style. If you want to add real muscle to your frame, then get under the bar and make it happen. 

That being said, there are very few things as satisfying as going into the gym and lifting more than the ripped model types who's primary focus is the mirror.  

End6ame

SHBoss1673, out of curiosity, have you worked with anyone on the SL 5x5 program?

I don't know about SHBoss1673, so I apologize in advance for lumping you into this category, but many personal trainers, at least the ones I have interacted with (either in person or over the Internet) wouldn't know the first thing about this type of program,the kinesthetics, or the proper mechanics of the human physiology with regards to these exercises. I know this is a generalization, but it has been my experience. 

I have seen countless personal trainers coaching improper technique in squats and bench (don't see too many people doing deads, rows, or press). Most continue to spread bro-science myths like "full squats are bad for your knees", "don't work the same muscles twice in one week", etc...

Basically if you want a coach in these type of lifts you need to find a CSCS or someone experienced in Olympic or power lifting. 

Again, sorry to SHBoss1673 for lumping you into this category. Based upon some of the information I have read of yours, I do not believe you are this type of trainer. 

Wileyjoe

If you are approaching any kind of leaness or have a reasonable amount of training under your belt then this will not really be an option unless you use a specific strategy balancing anabolic days (where you overfeed) with catabolic days (where you underfeed.) CKD diets or low carb days followed by refeeds can work very well in this context. It certainly won't happen by accident though.

This is likely why I have been able to gain a little - I cycle my calories and carbs a bit in relation to my heavy lift days. I often am above maintenance calories for 1-2 days per week.

SHBoss1673

I don't train people with stronglifts program, or any progressive load programs like that as my area of focus is obesity and high impact athletic functional training (plyometrics, and yes, some body weight, but also speed drills, balance drills, and functional power drills). I don't focus on power and don't pretend to be an expert on body building techniques (I'm working on it, in fact I'm attending a very highly regarded Olympic lift training session in a few months at our gym which is supposed to be the best out there, put on by the Olympic weight lifting association). but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I study every chance I get on kinesiology and body mechanics, which is more than most people do (trainers I mean), so I feel I'm adequate to give advice to most beginner and intermediate weight training.

That said, I don't question your program, stronglifts 5x5 along with other 5x5 or 3x5 programs like that (marc rippetoe et all) are all fine if that's the way you want to go, progressive load techniques are proven to be effective for beginner and intermediate strength training.

My main issue is the timeline.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

2 other factors to take into account.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

So you see, I don't have any problem with someone making massive gains over the first few months of a training program, but it's not LBM gains, it's water and fluid weight, which is fine, and healthy, and does provide some small amount of metabolic rate increase, but it's not overly high.

That's probably what happened with you.

Again, as long as you're not trying to say you lost WEIGHT, nothing that happens is particularly shocking to me. But I'm all about classification and clarification.

Joe body builder, who's been doing this for 4 years can't make the kinds of gains you're stating (because of above), and building lean mass is HARD, average for those who are serious is between 1 and 2 lbs a month, for the rest of us, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass in a year is about what to expect.

As to BF%. Yes, if you change to eating healthy and exercise from not, you could lose 5 or 6 percent in a few months (or more if you're obese and dedicate hours a day to it) but once you get into a zone where you are merely overweight or at a healthy BF%, looking for these kinds of losses is unreasonable to say the least.

Doing both at the same time is even harder, again I won't say it's impossible, it's just really hard to keep that kind of thing going, burning the candle at both ends as it were. Most people who do this sort of thing end up working to hard, stressing out, and failing. I don't say that to discourage, I say it as simple fact. if you can keep it going, that's great, but it becomes a drain on the mental faculties after a while, and you really need to be aware of the potential pitfalls of it.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).


hope this helps clear things up.

-Banks

freerange

I don't train people with stronglifts program, or any progressive load programs like that as my area of focus is obesity and high impact athletic functional training (plyometrics, and yes, some body weight, but also speed drills, balance drills, and functional power drills). I don't focus on power and don't pretend to be an expert on body building techniques (I'm working on it, in fact I'm attending a very highly regarded Olympic lift training session in a few months at our gym which is supposed to be the best out there, put on by the Olympic weight lifting association). but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I study every chance I get on kinesiology and body mechanics, which is more than most people do (trainers I mean), so I feel I'm adequate to give advice to most beginner and intermediate weight training.

That said, I don't question your program, stronglifts 5x5 along with other 5x5 or 3x5 programs like that (marc rippetoe et all) are all fine if that's the way you want to go, progressive load techniques are proven to be effective for beginner and intermediate strength training.

My main issue is the timeline.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

2 other factors to take into account.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

So you see, I don't have any problem with someone making massive gains over the first few months of a training program, but it's not LBM gains, it's water and fluid weight, which is fine, and healthy, and does provide some small amount of metabolic rate increase, but it's not overly high.

That's probably what happened with you.

Again, as long as you're not trying to say you lost WEIGHT, nothing that happens is particularly shocking to me. But I'm all about classification and clarification.

Joe body builder, who's been doing this for 4 years can't make the kinds of gains you're stating (because of above), and building lean mass is HARD, average for those who are serious is between 1 and 2 lbs a month, for the rest of us, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass in a year is about what to expect.

As to BF%. Yes, if you change to eating healthy and exercise from not, you could lose 5 or 6 percent in a few months (or more if you're obese and dedicate hours a day to it) but once you get into a zone where you are merely overweight or at a healthy BF%, looking for these kinds of losses is unreasonable to say the least.

Doing both at the same time is even harder, again I won't say it's impossible, it's just really hard to keep that kind of thing going, burning the candle at both ends as it were. Most people who do this sort of thing end up working to hard, stressing out, and failing. I don't say that to discourage, I say it as simple fact. if you can keep it going, that's great, but it becomes a drain on the mental faculties after a while, and you really need to be aware of the potential pitfalls of it.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).


hope this helps clear things up.

-Banks

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

djhavoc

I can personally say that YES it is possible last year my pants were falling (losing fat/weight) but my shirts were fitting me tighter around my chest and biceps/triceps I think every body/person is different just as some can lose weight fast while others it's a much slower process.

SHBoss1673

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

freerange

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

Thanks, yes 10% might not be in my future, and I'm just kind of throwing numbers out there, I will adjust as I learn more, like I said back in the day, we really didn't think in terms of body fat%, like is common today. Yeah at my peak I had striation, nothing like a pro, but pretty cut for a regular gym rat.

Wileyjoe

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

Interesting... i am currently at a point in my weight loss where I am trying to decide what to do next. I turn 40 in a few months and am looking to be in great shape for it. I am trying to decide if I should continue on my current path and try to get into single digit BF% or do a stint of bulking. I'm not trying to become a body builder or anything, I just want to look as good as i can at this age and be healthy for myself and my wonderful wife (not to mention a better role model to my kids). How healthy or unhealthy at this age is it to try to get to single digit BF%?

freerange

Here is a great way to tell about where you are by looking at photos of others and what their Body Fat % is. By this I would say I'm between 20-25% now.

http://www.leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages

ganesha303

Here is a great way to tell about where you are by looking at photos of others and what their Body Fat % is. By this I would say I'm between 20-25% now.

http://www.leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages

Based on this, I would guess that the OMRON analyzer is probably in the right ball park for me.

Wileyjoe

Yeah, from the photos from that web site it appears that I am in the range where my scans have said I was. I did read up on issues prior to using the scans before hand and am aware of the issues with them. I tried to ensure that my hydration levels were the same each time I was scanned so that they would be consistant.

ganesha303

Banks, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate you taking the time to do so and for your gentlemanly demeanor.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

I agree that the device has a margin of error. I have worked my way around that as best as possible and do not see fluctuations near what you describe. I hold the unit as directed and am conscious to hold it the same way every time. I take three measurements every morning when I wake up and when there is a difference it is usually around 0.2%. This morning my readings were 16.9%, 16.9% and 16.7%. I usually see little difference within a given week and see them slowly go down over time.

So though these devices are not 100% accurate, I believe they can be accurate enough if used properly and the margin of error should not detract from the story of my progress.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

I certainly do not understand the technical details of muscle fibers, fluid retention etc and cannot speak meaningfully to the above other than to say from my experience and anecdotally through the experiences of others, early weight training gets much more dramatic results than later training will. So that validates what you are saying.

Functionally, my sense of logic begs the question, if we are invalidating my change in LBM based on it being more water than anything, when calculating LBM do we remove water from the equation? Since the male body is roughly 60% water, do we take that out for LBM equations? My lay-person's understanding of LBM, which may be flawed, is LBM = weight - (BF% * weight). Does the fact that my muscles are theoretically retaining more water really not count as LBM?

And from a purely utilitarian viewpoint, I have to ask, even if this is true, so what? I look bigger and less fat. I have reduced BF% and actual fat. I am stronger than I have *ever* been. I am comfortable on the beach in a bathing suit. I am succeeding by almost any measure the people on this site would consider useful, and I am doing it in a manner I would consider healthy: free of drugs, hormones, starvation, etc. After doing cardio and fooling around with weight machines, being overly obsessed about my food intake, and making only slow progress, I have found being under the barbell is powerful and dramatic and I want to advocate it to others seeking to make these changes as well.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).

I have mixed feelings about this. From the standpoint that free weights intimidate people, I get it. For a long time I avoided that part of my gym, and had some false impressions about what goes on there. The reality is SL 5x5 is only three exercises per workout, takes about and hour to hour and a half, three days a week and starts really easy since you just do the bar, tighten your form and add 5lbs each workout. Elderly woman have been able to succeed on this program. So though the concept may seem intimidating, the reality it is quick, efficient, effective and suitable for beginners.

So, for anyone that believes that my story is outlandish or impossible or too good to be true, I challenge you to try Stronglifts.com program for three months. Stick to your three workouts per week, consume .75 - 1gram of protein per lb of body weight daily, get enough sleep, and tell your story here. I would love to hear about your results!