The Sodium and Potassium Relationship

dwardca

I'm curious if anyone knows more on this subject and can refer me for further reading.

Back in February I started going to Hot Yoga. I was sweating like mad during class, and I seemed to overheat .. unable to cool myself down (I'd have a cold shower and still have sweat pouring off me an hour later, at rest). I was force drinking 10 glasses of water a day, but all I ended up doing was urinating more. (You could set your watch to it - I drink, one hour later I was peeing clear water out). My acupuncturist did the usual tongue analysis and continually told me I needed more water. So I was pretty confused.

I read up on the internet (various sites) and seen that the body also needs potassium in order to absorb water (electrolytes). I looked around and ended up buying Electro-Mix from Alacer Corp. It is a sugar free / salt free sports drink powder you mix in with water. I've been having about 3-4 of these packets a day, which is about 1200mg of potassium. When I started taking them, I immediately "felt" cooler. I could feel the air on my arms and I felt way more comfortable. I also noticed that over the course of two months - I stopped drinking soda pops (they just didn't appeal to me anymore) and was drinking a ton of water. My bathroom trips however were spacing themselves apart. I was absorbing water! I also found that by drinking it during Hot Yoga .. I remained cooler throughout the class and performed better. My last two trips to the acupuncturist have resulted in a "you have good hydration now" remark. So great, right?

Not quite. I've decided to get back on my diet now that so many other issues with the water is fixed. I do Atkins and therefore in the first week when I'm fighting cravings .. meats are usually a nice free snack. I went out and bought a bunch of carb free deli meats. Well the first day I noticed I had consumed over 6500mg of sodium. After the second day, I started having a bloated feeling .. tightness in my chest .. stopped sleeping well .. and my skin has started to get pretty irritated (itchy).

Right away I suspected the sodium - and started searching. Sure enough, my symptoms were consistant with high sodium. Today I am cutting as much sodium out of my diet and hoping things will level out by the weekend.

The problem is that when doing the research on the internet, I read a number of articles talking about the *ratio* of potassium to sodium as being more important than the quantities. Essentially the body regulates both sodium and potassium - so unless you have a deficiency of either one, or a substantial off balancing of the two, the body will do the rest and regulate it.

Now this part I may have incorrect - so do your homework before taking it as gospel. From what I've read and compiled in my head: Sodium is responsible for the outer pressure of the cells. When sodium draws too much water, it can cause cellular damage. By contrast - Potassium is responsible for the inner pressure of the cells. The two ions are used to move water in and out of the cells at a controlled and healthy rate. To much of either is bad for cellular health, and not enough of either is bad.

It was also saying that one should consume twice as much potassium as they do sodium. And increasing potassium has the same effect as decreasing your sodium levels. At the end of the day - its all about retaining water. For example - your blood pressure increases because there is more water in your blood, which increases the blood volume. Whether you decrease sodium or increase potassium - they both result in the same effect: a more regulated water volume in the blood.

My question to people out there (other than .. is my understanding correct), is .. how can you really know if you are eating too much salt or too much potassium?

kerriknox

I am just marking this to read later - I am also interested in the response!

otr12

I want to know too.

SueInAz

Doesn't seem to me that you need to do much more reading. Everything you're stating matches what I've read about the subject (casually). I think we're only starting to get the information (the public, that is) about the relationship between potassium and sodium. So much has been out there about sodium, but not enough about potassium's interrelationship with it. In addition, OTC potassium supplements only have 99mg when we need 3500mg per day. Rather ridiculous when you realize you get 4-5 times that amount in a single banana.

If you really want to know where you're at, see your doctor about getting blood work done. I recently had mine done after my annual checkup and was relieved to see that both my sodium and potassium levels were right where they should be.

therealangd

I have absolutely no idea, but it is a very interesting concept. Something I'll probably read up on.

drasr

Sodium is responsible for the outer pressure of the cells. When sodium draws too much water, it can cause cellular damage. By contrast - Potassium is responsible for the inner pressure of the cells. The two ions are used to move water in and out of the cells at a controlled and healthy rate.

That is right to some extent. Water only moves if there is a difference in osmolarity. If you are drinking electrolyte powder, water will move into cells till the osmolarity reaches the normal/physiological range. After that it will stop and will be excreted in urine. If you kidney function is normal you don't have to worry about these imbalances. But taking too much of either sodium or potassium is bad. The hormones which regulate their concentration in the body usually have opposite effect i.e. if one hormone causes absorption of sodium, it will also cause excretion of potassium and vice versa. It is a bit complicated. Could you be more specific what you really want to know.

nikki_zav

bump

dwardca

That is right to some extent. Water only moves if there is a difference in osmolarity. If you are drinking electrolyte powder, water will move into cells till the osmolarity reaches the normal/physiological range. After that it will stop and will be excreted in urine. If you kidney function is normal you don't have to worry about these imbalances. But taking too much of either sodium or potassium is bad. The hormones which regulate their concentration in the body usually have opposite effect i.e. if one hormone causes absorption of sodium, it will also cause excretion of potassium and vice versa. It is a bit complicated. Could you be more specific what you really want to know.

Right - I remember reading that the process that water moves in the body is osmosis... however the articles I read said that too much or two little water could go into the cells resulting in death of the cells.

My kidney function is normal right now - but I don't want to place a strain on my kidneys un-necessarily.

I did not know about the hormone regulation (Aldosterone). Going to read up on that. Preliminary reading on Wikipedia suggests that I am going to have to read up on the Renin-angiotensin system (blood pressure and water balance).

As for my specific question - I'm more after information on whether its primarily the intake levels of each independently, if its only the ratio that matters, or a combination of both. Will read more on the above noted articles.

EDIT: Some good reading. When dehydrated, the hypothalamus releases a hormone (vasopressin) to stimulate water absorbtion by the kidneys and create an appetite for salt, along with a "thirsty" sensation (which, in many people are food cravings).
Thx

sweet_lotus

In addition, OTC potassium supplements only have 99mg when we need 3500mg per day. Rather ridiculous when you realize you get 4-5 times that amount in a single banana.

That's because hyperkalemia (high serum potassium) can be very serious. Some people really pound the supplements, thinking more is better. In most cases taking too many vitamins, etc, won't really do much damage. But taking too much potassium can cause a fatal arrhythmia. Potassium chloride is what they use when the death penalty is administered.

You don't want to mess with your potassium unless under medical supervision.

drasr

Right - I remember reading that the process that water moves in the body is osmosis... however the articles I read said that too much or two little water could go into the cells resulting in death of the cells.

My kidney function is normal right now - but I don't want to place a strain on my kidneys un-necessarily.

I did not know about the hormone regulation (Aldosterone). Going to read up on that. Preliminary reading on Wikipedia suggests that I am going to have to read up on the Renin-angiotensin system (blood pressure and water balance).

As for my specific question - I'm more after information on whether its primarily the intake levels of each independently, if its only the ratio that matters, or a combination of both. Will read more on the above noted articles.

EDIT: Some good reading. When dehydrated, the hypothalamus releases a hormone (vasopressin) to stimulate water absorbtion by the kidneys and create an appetite for salt, along with a "thirsty" sensation (which, in many people are food cravings).
Thx

10% of a single functioning kidney is enough for survival, so don't worry about 'over-straining' your kidneys.
ADH and Renin-Angiotensin-Aldosterone System are different ways by which body maintains BP and conserves water.
It is a combination of both that matters. There is an independent regulation system for both ions and a combined one as well.
My advice to you is that if you want to read, either read and understand the concept in full[from A to Z] or don't read anything at all. Knowing parts of the information is not a wise thing esp when human body is concerned. Remember Little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Please don't take it as me discouraging you from reading more but rather encouraging you to understand everything.
And whatever the other poster said about potassium is right.

celestial_girl

Ok, so this is what I learned in my cellular biology class about sodium/potassium pumps. Thanks for making me crack out my texts btw lol, haven't touched them in years! Na/K pumps are just one type of active transport ion pumps used by cells to transport solutes across the cell membrane that are too big to diffuse across on their own. They are powered by ATP (energy), which is what is made from the food you eat.

The active transport of solutes, like sodium and potassium ions, across cell membranes affects the net movement of water via osmosis. Your body is always going to try to achieve a balance of water/solute concentrations on both sides of the cell membrane. More sodium in a cell means more water will diffuse into the cell so that the concentration on the inside is equal to the concentration on the outside of the membrane. Which is why you retain water when you eat a large amount of sodium.

You don't really want to mess around with your nutrients. The daily recommended amount of sodium is around 2500 mg I believe (it's late, I may be wrong). Strive to not go over this amount as much as possible, but occasionally it's fine. I'm not sure what the safe amount for potassium is, but too much can mess up your kidneys. If you're concerned about what you're eating, I highly suggest speaking with a doctor or nutritionist.

Swimgoddess

This is all pretty interesting since I was recently prescribed Spironolactone for my skin. I'm terrified of anything with potassium now.

Thexplodingirl

I would be interested to know who here has trouble with getting too much potassium in their normal diet. I would imagine if you're not taking supplements you shouldn't have a problem.
I noticed when I started tracking my potassium and trying to get more of it I retained water less. But you still need sodium too. I try to keep it at 1500g sodium, 2500g potassium which is the ratio but lower amounts mfp initially recommended for me.

dwardca

That's because hyperkalemia (high serum potassium) can be very serious. Some people really pound the supplements, thinking more is better. In most cases taking too many vitamins, etc, won't really do much damage. But taking too much potassium can cause a fatal arrhythmia. Potassium chloride is what they use when the death penalty is administered.

You don't want to mess with your potassium unless under medical supervision.

See.. its this kind of stuff that worries me. I see benefits when I take the potassium drinks .. which have 400mg of potassium per packet .. but I don't want to kill myself. On the other hand .. using four packets a day has as much potassium as eating two bananas .. I could eat 10 bananas in a day - I'm not going to kill myself .. So ..