Escalating Density Training

Lyadeia

I have gotten into really great shape doing things at home like P90X and Insanity, but I don't want to do cookie-cutter workouts any more. I want to really cut the fat from my body and then work on building a little lean muscle. My "perfect" body doesn't look anything like someone like Jessica Biel. Skinny with a teeny bit of muscle doesn't interest me.

So I have been working up some new training schedules and routines that I will use at the gym when it is done being renovated...I am hoping by August, but they seem to be working really slowly...

I really like the looks of Tom Venuto's "The New Bodybuilding Workout" and will probably do a rotation of that. I'll probably do it in circuit training fashion and then do cardio on my "in between" days with at least one day of HIIT sprints... And I know that this will work to shred the fat and get stronger as well as gain a little lean mass because I have seen it work for others.

I also like the looks of Staley's EDT training, or Escalating Density Training. The science appears to be solid and it looks like something that will really change body composition depending on the food intake. Only issue is, I don't know anyone who has actually done it and I tend to call BS on all those stupid success stories you see floating around the internet without even knowing who those people are or what they've actually done...

So basically I would like to know who has done EDT training, and what did it do for you in terms of body comp. changes?

As far as nutrition goes, I will follow the guidelines in Tom Venuto's book Burn The Fat, Feed the Muscle because I have had much greater success with that then all this weird "eat back your calories" crap from this website where it is almost impossible to know how many calories that is...so I just went back to basics and started doing what I was doing before coming to this website. Less stress...much easier...and golly gee it works. I will still use the planner on this website to make sure I am near my calorie goal and ratios, though.

Anyway, can you give me some insight on EDT?

therobinator

....all this weird "eat back your calories" crap from this website where it is almost impossible to know how many calories that is....

I know I am not answering your actual question, but I was struck by your comment which I quoted above. How it is weird? How is it so hard to figure out how much that is? Check this link: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/238136-myfitnesspal-builds-in-your-deficit-for-you
It's all quite simple and easy.

Edited to fix link.

Lyadeia

It's weird because they have me starting out at 1200 calories which they actually recommend for me on my non exercise days which is STARVING me to death. Plus, all the generic blah blah calculators for figuring out calories burned are estimations and not a true indication of what I am burning.

After seeing a nutritionist and learning about MY body as opposed to anything generic and "one size fits all" I do not use MFP calculators for me which are wrong.

I have much better results following Tom Venuto's plan after discovering what MY body responds to.

Lyadeia

This is why I *almost* didn't post my question on this website. I knew someone was going to ask me about that, but I ain't a fixin' what ain't broke...

Just curious about EDT???

therobinator

It's weird because they have me starting out at 1200 calories which they actually recommend for me on my non exercise days which is STARVING me to death. Plus, all the generic blah blah calculators for figuring out calories burned are estimations and not a true indication of what I am burning.

After seeing a nutritionist and learning about MY body as opposed to anything generic and "one size fits all" I do not use MFP calculators for me which are wrong.

I have much better results following Tom Venuto's plan after discovering what MY body responds to.

I was not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong, just that your thinking the general MFP systems don't make sense was an over broad interpretation.

Using your own numbers that you get from a HRM and/or certified nutritionist, etc. is always better than using any online estimators. And listening to your body is also a good idea when it tells you to eat more or less, which you obviously know.

Sorry, though, I don't know anything about EDT. I even Googled it and couldn't find much info....it all seems to be guarded and the sites I found want money to get any information, which to me says something. Maybe you can give us an outline here of what the program entails?....and then I am sure someone can offer you a good analysis of whether the methods are legit or not.

Lyadeia

Sorry, though, I don't know anything about EDT. I even Googled it and couldn't find much info....it all seems to be guarded and the sites I found want money to get any information, which to me says something. Maybe you can give us an outline here of what the program entails?....and then I am sure someone can offer you a good analysis of whether the methods are legit or not.

This is one article that I was using to create my own workouts using EDT:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/going_deep_with_edt_your_10_most_common_questions_answered

You won't find a lot of details because Staley meant it to be simply a guideline that you can use for training, not a strict program like P90X.

Basically you just pick 2 (or more depending on your preferences) exercises that use antagonistic muscle groups. You perform 5 reps of the first exercise and immediately go into 5 reps of the second with no rest and repeat this process for 15 minutes. If you get to the point where you can't do 5, that's fine, you do less reps. You just make it to 15 minutes counting total reps for the whole "circuit" and record that number. Then you try to increase the number of total reps next time you do that circuit. The weight you pick is what you could lift 10 reps of before needing to rest.

My plan is to do this 3 times per week using 2 circuits each day. Like on Mondays I would do deadlifts/squats, take about 5 minutes rest, and then do something like push-ups/pull-ups. Then on Wednesdays I would something different like low back extensions/swiss ball crunches and biceps curls/triceps extensions, and something even different from that on Fridays to hit different muscle groups each day. That would be about a 45 minute workout each day I did it.

I am expecting a huge DOMS hit for a couple of weeks, possibly longer...but the more I read and the more I think about it, the more I like the whole idea of EDT because it seems like a good way to increase strength and endurance at the same time. And weight training with a cardio effect is great for fat loss. People who lift heavy lose more fat than people who do the pink dumbbells routines after their hours of cardio. But I was hoping to find at least one real person who has tried it that I can question instead of just believing the websites and books. After all Staley wouldn't even imagine putting someone on his website or in his book that didn't see great results...just like all the ads for 30 Day Shred or the Beachbody products, which is why I like to talk to real people and see how it worked for them. :flowerforyou:

Azdak

Sorry, though, I don't know anything about EDT. I even Googled it and couldn't find much info....it all seems to be guarded and the sites I found want money to get any information, which to me says something. Maybe you can give us an outline here of what the program entails?....and then I am sure someone can offer you a good analysis of whether the methods are legit or not.

This is one article that I was using to create my own workouts using EDT:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/going_deep_with_edt_your_10_most_common_questions_answered

You won't find a lot of details because Staley meant it to be simply a guideline that you can use for training, not a strict program like P90X.

Basically you just pick 2 (or more depending on your preferences) exercises that use antagonistic muscle groups. You perform 5 reps of the first exercise and immediately go into 5 reps of the second with no rest and repeat this process for 15 minutes. If you get to the point where you can't do 5, that's fine, you do less reps. You just make it to 15 minutes counting total reps for the whole "circuit" and record that number. Then you try to increase the number of total reps next time you do that circuit. The weight you pick is what you could lift 10 reps of before needing to rest.

My plan is to do this 3 times per week using 2 circuits each day. Like on Mondays I would do deadlifts/squats, take about 5 minutes rest, and then do something like push-ups/pull-ups. Then on Wednesdays I would something different like low back extensions/swiss ball crunches and biceps curls/triceps extensions, and something even different from that on Fridays to hit different muscle groups each day. That would be about a 45 minute workout each day I did it.

I am expecting a huge DOMS hit for a couple of weeks, possibly longer...but the more I read and the more I think about it, the more I like the whole idea of EDT because it seems like a good way to increase strength and endurance at the same time. And weight training with a cardio effect is great for fat loss. People who lift heavy lose more fat than people who do the pink dumbbells routines after their hours of cardio. But I was hoping to find at least one real person who has tried it that I can question instead of just believing the websites and books. After all Staley wouldn't even imagine putting someone on his website or in his book that didn't see great results...just like all the ads for 30 Day Shred or the Beachbody products, which is why I like to talk to real people and see how it worked for them. :flowerforyou:

I kind of skimmed this article, so maybe I am wrong, but it seemed reasonably objective. At least the conclusions pretty much matched what I would have guessed.

http://www.bodybuildingsecretslive.com/escalating-density-training-review/

chrisdavey

I have looked into it and done a few workouts based on it's principles a few times but never used it as a main program so can't really comment on that perspective. Searching on T-nation, EliteFTS of bb.com might get some more answers?

I wouldn't advise pairing squats and deadlifts together! That's just craziness!

Lyadeia

LOL, I didn't even know they claimed that you could "burn 1/2% body fat every week." I just know that ANY weight training program, properly done with heavy weights, will results in fat loss. :flowerforyou:

So even from that review that you posted, it seems to be a good weights program for fat loss. I am not looking for the "ultimate" program or whatever, just something to do for like a 12 week rotation in between rotations of other, more typical, weight training routines. It seems that this may be just what I need.

Plus, I like the idea of trying to beat your own personal best each week, rather than just hitting a certain number of reps and then moving on. I know that you should beat your own personal best each time with other programs by adding a rep or adding weight...but the way this program is written almost sounds more like a personal challenge to yourself.

I have other things in mind for when I reach my body fat % goal to help build the lean muscle mass, but it appears that this will work with my other cardio to help burn the fat while retaining muscle. Most cardio based fat loss programs don't have anything to deter muscle loss, which is sad. I hate those girlie programs that have you do a bazillion reps with the little 5 pound weights! Might be great for beginners, but they definitely will NOT help me get to the goals that I have in mind!

Lyadeia

The author of this article says that EDT is "really enjoyable" as opposed to "really boring" from the article that Azdak posted--

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler35.htm

So far from the research I have done just from various articles it seems to be a good way of training that works...I was just hoping to see someone on this website who may have done it to see what their results have been. That's more "real" to me than articles on the internet.

I will try to do this with dumbbells at home (I have Bowflex weights adjustable to 52 pounds) so at least that's a start to see how I like the program. I just think most of the exercises would be easier on me with a barbell or machine. Squats with dumbbells is difficult simply because of wrist strength...or lack thereof...and I feel like my legs are getting cheated. I'll deal with it until the gym is finished.

Azdak

Just to be perfectly clear--Neither my comment nor the article I posted was meant to be critical of EDT. I didn't think the author's use of the statement "really boring" was that significant--overall I thought he had the right perspective, pointing out some positive aspects of EDT but also keeping it in perspective vis a vis the spectrum of resistance training alternatives available.

Anyone is certainly free to disagree with that article--I just threw it out there because it's something I found quickly and it seemed more "objective" than other stuff I saw-- but I didn't want to leave the impression that I was trying to "dis" EDT. Certainly if someone is looking to try something new, it should be an interesting change of routine.

Lyadeia

Just to be perfectly clear--Neither my comment nor the article I posted was meant to be critical of EDT. I didn't think the author's use of the statement "really boring" was that significant--overall I thought he had the right perspective, pointing out some positive aspects of EDT but also keeping it in perspective vis a vis the spectrum of resistance training alternatives available.

Anyone is certainly free to disagree with that article--I just threw it out there because it's something I found quickly and it seemed more "objective" than other stuff I saw-- but I didn't want to leave the impression that I was trying to "dis" EDT. Certainly if someone is looking to try something new, it should be an interesting change of routine.

I know. :flowerforyou: I appreciate you finding the article for me. I don't necessarily his view of it being boring was all that significant either, I just pointed out that the author of the other article had a different opinion of it...basically meaning I just have to try it to see if I like it since some people find it fun, others don't.

There's a few different routines that I am adding to my arsenal right now. I believe that fat loss and lean muscle gains are more continually made when we try new types of routines and change things up. I will probably change up my routines every 2-3 months or so. Probably every 2, actually. I can say with quite a bit of certainty that I get bored and want to do something else after 2 months...I frequently stop doing home workouts after 2 months like P90X, Turbo Jam, etc. I guess that's why I like Insanity so much as a cardio workout...it is designed to last only 2 months. :bigsmile:

czallstarwes

Check out you tube videos from Robert dos Remedios (Coach dos). His modified density training is probably one of the best types of workout to combine overall fitness, strength, and hypertrophy training. It's a takeaway from Charles Staley's work. In his book, coach outlines five types of exercises, explosive (think Olympic lifts), Knee/hip dominant (squat/Romanian deadlift), upper body push (bench press or overhead press), upper body pull (bent row, pull ups), core (rotational core). Setting up the exercises in a circuit and doing four rounds with a goal of finishing somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes (1 minute per set). If you finish in less than 20, add resistance. If you finish in more than 20, try again the next time or reduce some resistance. The idea is that as you improve your times, and increase your weights, you are building work capacity. He suggests that you start with your 10-12 rep max, and do 8 rep sets.

I'm a member on his website, since he published his book, he's also come out with a lower rep version using the 8 rep max and pushing 5 reps. Same concept, but with more of a strength focus.

rybo

I didn't read the articles but density training is a pretty good system. Several ways to incorporate it. I have been shifting to that type of training myself. Getting more reps over a fixed amount of time or completing more rounds in a set time. Or even completing a fixed number of rounds in less time.

ahamm002

therobinator wrote: »

....all this weird "eat back your calories" crap from this website where it is almost impossible to know how many calories that is....

I know I am not answering your actual question, but I was struck by your comment which I quoted above. How it is weird? How is it so hard to figure out how much that is? Check this link: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/238136-myfitnesspal-builds-in-your-deficit-for-you
It's all quite simple and easy.

Edited to fix link.

I completely agree with the OP. Unless you're doing steady state cardio then you have no idea how many calories you're burning by working out.

ahamm002

double post

ahamm002

therobinator wrote: »

It's weird because they have me starting out at 1200 calories which they actually recommend for me on my non exercise days which is STARVING me to death. Plus, all the generic blah blah calculators for figuring out calories burned are estimations and not a true indication of what I am burning.

After seeing a nutritionist and learning about MY body as opposed to anything generic and "one size fits all" I do not use MFP calculators for me which are wrong.

I have much better results following Tom Venuto's plan after discovering what MY body responds to.

I was not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong, just that your thinking the general MFP systems don't make sense was an over broad interpretation.

Using your own numbers that you get from a HRM and/or certified nutritionist, etc. is always better than using any online estimators. And listening to your body is also a good idea when it tells you to eat more or less, which you obviously know.

Sorry, though, I don't know anything about EDT. I even Googled it and couldn't find much info....it all seems to be guarded and the sites I found want money to get any information, which to me says something. Maybe you can give us an outline here of what the program entails?....and then I am sure someone can offer you a good analysis of whether the methods are legit or not.

LOL at HRM! And what certifications does a nutrionist really need that allow them to figure out how many extra calories you burn by doing resistance training?

Iron_Feline

czallstarwes wrote: »

Check out you tube videos from Robert dos Remedios (Coach dos). His modified density training is probably one of the best types of workout to combine overall fitness, strength, and hypertrophy training. It's a takeaway from Charles Staley's work. In his book, coach outlines five types of exercises, explosive (think Olympic lifts), Knee/hip dominant (squat/Romanian deadlift), upper body push (bench press or overhead press), upper body pull (bent row, pull ups), core (rotational core). Setting up the exercises in a circuit and doing four rounds with a goal of finishing somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes (1 minute per set). If you finish in less than 20, add resistance. If you finish in more than 20, try again the next time or reduce some resistance. The idea is that as you improve your times, and increase your weights, you are building work capacity. He suggests that you start with your 10-12 rep max, and do 8 rep sets.

I'm a member on his website, since he published his book, he's also come out with a lower rep version using the 8 rep max and pushing 5 reps. Same concept, but with more of a strength focus.

Bumped a 4 year old thread to promote your website eh?