Fact, Opinion, and Belief

Mindful_Trent

Well, we have to make do with the pool of knowledge we have in the present. Sure, over time, certain things may change, but the fundamentals will probably hold true. There's no reason to reject the current "facts" just because they might change in the future. This to me looks like an example of one's belief-system interfering with progress.

A long time ago, I would allow myself to go to bed hungry. It was my (wrong) belief that eating before bed was a bad idea, so I'd be better off going to bed hungry than eating. Eventually I learned that eating right before bed is not an issue, so I changed my beliefs and my habits.

What if I refused to change? What if my belief that "eating before bed is bad" was so strong, that it trumped the facts? I could have rationalized it by saying, "well, facts can change over time. maybe in the future they'll tell us that eating before bed is bad again". Well, I would just be impeding my progress - I would likely lose lean muscle mass, and feel hungry and irritable.

Belief is a hugely powerful force. When we believe in ourselves, we succeed. But the sword cuts both ways. When we hold on to incorrect or harmful beliefs, we can seriously impede our progress.

I definitely agree that we have to make do with the knowledge & facts as we have them. I wasn't at all suggesting that we reject current facts because they *might* change - that would be pretty silly.

I just think it's important to recognize that it's very easy to find someone knowledgeable and competent who presents one thing as fact (supported by research) while someone else who seems equally knowledgeable and competent presents something as fact (supported by research) that conflicts with the first person's fact. Many of the debates on MFP go beyond black and white fundamentals and move into the greyer area where our knowledge is constantly evolving. At the end of the day it's each person's responsibility to integrate all the respectable/reliable information they can find on a topic and draw their own conclusion on what that information means for them. The biggest problem I see is people not thinking critically and not understanding how to figure out what information is respectable/reliable - the "google syndrome" where they believe the first thing that pops up in a google search on a topic.

ChRiStA_1983

I like this post. And that's a fact, not an opinion. :P

skinnyjeanzbound

I agree that people could become confused, but honestly, do people really read these threads as fact? I mean, some of the people on these threads are experts and others post articles and evidence to support theories, but in general it's just a conversation with a bunch of strangers. If some guy walking down the street stopped me to tell me the "facts" about health and fitness, would I automatically believe him?

I guess my point is that we all need to use our brains and recognize that what people share on these threads is usually what works for them--hence opinion. I don't think we should have to begin every comment with "this is just my opinion"--that should be assumed by those reading the comments.

Oh, and just so it's clear, this is just my opinion

muth3rluvx2

I agree that people could become confused, but honestly, do people really read these threads as fact? I mean, some of the people on these threads are experts and others post articles and evidence to support theories, but in general it's just a conversation with a bunch of strangers. If some guy walking down the street stopped me to tell me the "facts" about health and fitness, would I automatically believe him?

I guess my point is that we all need to use our brains and recognize that what people share on these threads is usually what works for them--hence opinion. I don't think we should have to begin every comment with "this is just my opinion"--that should be assumed by those reading the comments.

Oh, and just so it's clear, this is just my opinion

Yep.. .people both dole out and believe things here as "facts" - or try to disprove someone's "facts" with their own "facts".

To me, I believe (opinion) that anything pertaining to the human structure is opinion, sometimes but not always, supported by research (opinions being interpreted as fact). The academic in me can't make the assumption that anything we "know" is necessarily "true". We - as conscious beings - assume many things and assume we know alot; alot more than we do. We can't prove anything and therefore, nothing we know can be assumed to be true. However, we can determine what works for each of us as individuals by the experiential evidence that mounts as we progress through any activity.

Does this mean that I disregard research, science or what are currently accepted knowns? No - unless they seem counterintuitive to what I know about myself and some things are. That doesn't mean that I won't share that information if I believe it to possibly be valid elsewhere, though, even if it isn't for me. Bell curve, my darlings. and..only a small percentage fit right smack in the middle of that median line. :-) (fact - but of course, we can't put every single human being on the planet into a study, so again.. an assumption is made based on very finite information and it is accepted as a "fact").

muth3rluvx2

oh, and btw Taso - thanks for posting this.

Seriously.. it's giving my brain a workout, I think (belief.. lol) that its good reading for people.

there's an underlying philosophical debate in here and that is what's really being addressed and people have very different belief systems on how the world works - I think its beneficial for people to see those differences, know that there's others that relate to their of thinking and that there's positive ways to share variations on what we call "reality".

HMonsterX

The biggest problem is people claiming belief/possiblity/personal experience as facts. Yes, doing xxx may have helped you lose 10lbs...but it doesn't mean that it DID. So by claiming that fact, you cause friction, as others simply see no hard evidence for it, and it could easily be coincedence. I cite my fruit theory as an example. I eat 2 pieces of fruit a day, and have never been struck by lightning. I could say its a fact then that eating 2 bits of fruit a day will prevent you from being struck by lightning!

I find it amazing though. We can grow stem cells. We have explored millions of miles out into space. We know how things work at a genetic level. Yet we cannot conclusively say how many calories we burn, how our metabolism exactly works, etc. We know some basic things sure, yet we cannot say if you do x amount of exercise, and eat x amount of calories, you will lose x lbs.

taso42_DELETED

Ok, last thing and then I'll stop replying... Regarding the bell curve and "every body is different". Of course every body is a bit different, but we are more alike than different. Consider body temperature - 98.6F is the average. Most people are within a few tenths of that. I'm sure there are people who have drastically higher or lower temps, but they would represent a very small percentage of the population. Amount of blood in a grown adult: appx between 4.7 and 5 liter. Most of us are born with 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 stomach, 2 lungs, 2 eyes, 1 nose, 5 fingers per hand, 5 toes per foot. A small percent are born differently.

[Warning: Opinion here:] So. when it comes to weight loss and weight gain, it's similar. For a given height, weight, gender, and activity level, a person has a certain, predictable total daily calorie expenditure and certain caloric needs. On an individual basis, some might be slightly above or below the predicted value, but as a ballpark figure (like the 98.6 degrees body temperature), it's going to be quite close. Except for some very tiny percentage of the population, nobody is going to be off by hundreds and hundreds of calories. That's where things like the "1200 for women; 1500 for men safe minimums" come from. But it is people's internal beliefs that let them convince themselves these figures do not apply to them, and are off by hundreds of calories.

muth3rluvx2

Ok, last thing and then I'll stop replying... Regarding the bell curve and "every body is different". Of course every body is a bit different, but we are more alike than different. Consider body temperature - 98.6F is the average. Most people are within a few tenths of that. I'm sure there are people who have drastically higher or lower temps, but they would represent a very small percentage of the population. Amount of blood in a grown adult: appx between 4.7 and 5 liter. Most of us are born with 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 stomach, 2 lungs, 2 eyes, 1 nose, 5 fingers per hand, 5 toes per foot. A small percent are born differently.

[Warning: Opinion here:] So. when it comes to weight loss and weight gain, it's similar. For a given height, weight, gender, and activity level, a person has a certain, predictable total daily calorie expenditure and certain caloric needs. On an individual basis, some might be slightly above or below the predicted value, but as a ballpark figure (like the 98.6 degrees body temperature), it's going to be quite close. Except for some very tiny percentage of the population, nobody is going to be off by hundreds and hundreds of calories. That's where things like the "1200 for women; 1500 for men safe minimums" come from. But it is people's internal beliefs that let them convince themselves these figures do not apply to them, and are off by hundreds of calories.

So.. was that opinion or fact... really? :-) Because it looks to me like you're addressing an opinion (people's) with an opinion (yours, by your own admission). Generally, my body temperature runs low; so does my blood pressure. but my cholesterol is high.. according to the law of averages.

"...except for some very tiny percentage of the population, **nobody** is going to be off by hundreds and hundreds of calories." This SOUNDS like a statement of fact...
"but its people's internal beliefs...these figures do not apply to them, and are off by hundreds of calories" -again, sounds like a statement of fact...
"[WARNING: OPINION]:" ... ????

I'm not trying to tear you apart, dear. You're awesome and you've done a fantastic job. I'm just pointing out why that you're doing (even with the caveat) exactly what you started this post about and showing how and why people get confused and why people get things wrong and why fact, opinion and beliefs can be very tricky matters and they arent' always as clear as we might wish them to be.

It is in fact my opinion that facts should not be believed. *grins*

Hey, I should keep that. ha!

bcattoes

Well, we have to make do with the pool of knowledge we have in the present. Sure, over time, certain things may change, but the fundamentals will probably hold true. There's no reason to reject the current "facts" just because they might change in the future. This to me looks like an example of one's belief-system interfering with progress.

A long time ago, I would allow myself to go to bed hungry. It was my (wrong) belief that eating before bed was a bad idea, so I'd be better off going to bed hungry than eating. Eventually I learned that eating right before bed is not an issue, so I changed my beliefs and my habits.

What if I refused to change? What if my belief that "eating before bed is bad" was so strong, that it trumped the facts? I could have rationalized it by saying, "well, facts can change over time. maybe in the future they'll tell us that eating before bed is bad again". Well, I would just be impeding my progress - I would likely lose lean muscle mass, and feel hungry and irritable.

Belief is a hugely powerful force. When we believe in ourselves, we succeed. But the sword cuts both ways. When we hold on to incorrect or harmful beliefs, we can seriously impede our progress.

Oh gosh, I wasn't suggesting any "facts" or even any studies be ignored. Quite the opposite actually. I was pointing out that many people believe one studies results prove something. They will see a study that suggests something different than what is commonly believed to be fact and suddenly believe that all the previous studies have been proved wrong, which is rarely the case.

taso42_DELETED

Fack I ruined my own thread

AdAstra47

One of the great difficulties when dealing with *anything* medical is the immense number of variables involved. Hundreds of thousands of little things that interact with each other to produce certain results. It's like predicting the weather: they say "A butterly flaps its wings in India, and New York gets rain instead of snow." With medical issues, there's so much interaction between your genetic predispositions, your reproductive hormone cycles, your brain chemistry, the different chemicals in your food, the proportions of nutrients, the weather (yes, you retain more water and will weigh slightly heavier when it's humid!) and even the altitude at which you live. I find it highly unlikely that you could find *any* hard-and-fast nutrition rule that would apply to every single person on the planet. Except maybe "if you do not eat anything, you will starve to death." Beyond that, it's all just guesswork. In my opinion. ;-)

I loved the person who mentioned "I eat two pieces of fruit a day. I have never been struck by lightning. Therefore, eating two pieces of fruit a day will prevent someone from being struck by lightning." Awesome! That really is the way some people go about coming up with their "facts," and they don't use proper logic or consider all of the variables involved.

BTW, there's a wonderful blog post, http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/bjohs/view/small-weight-gain-don-t-panic-127354, that explores why sometimes you can do a great job and still gain a few pounds. Talking about more of those variables.

Great thread, thanks for posting it & making people think!