I am amazed that not many people train their legs

joejccva71

Running outside (bike trail, sidewalk) vs Running on a treadmill

There is ALOT more balance and coordination involved in doing Squats versus Leg Presses. The same with running on a treadmill than just running down the sidewalk in your city.

Why? Its the same, surely?

This is the whole of my question:

Why do you assert that the treadmill requires more co-ordination and balance than running outside?

How is running outside the same as running on a treadmill where it's platform is constantly moving forcing you to coordinate and balance your running on it? You can slow down, speed up, not really worry about changing footing outside with very little problem of falling. On a treadmill you are forced to maintain the steady pace unless you change the speed setting on it. You can't just slow down when you want to unless you change the speed setting. If you kept the same pace, then slowed down you could lose balance and fall.

Not really sure how you can call it the same.

Actually, running on a treadmill uses less energy than running outside given the same pace. The treadmill ground is moving under you, carrying your ground foot and giving it more momentum to kick back and reset the running motion. Also, you're making no forward movement as you are when running outside.

You can argue this if you want, but it's physics and biomechanics, not really an argument to be made.

Song I was referring to the balance and coordination factor involved in running. Thats what my analogy was about, not energy usage.

songbyrdsweet

Probably less than 5%. Their legs look horrible. They may have great endurance but you can get endurance doing any HIIT training or sports.

Do you know the difference in muscle fiber types? Endurance vs. strength vs. power? Just wondering.

Then I proceeded to explain to him that running on the treadmill requires more than DOUBLE the amount of coordination and balance in your entire body over running outside thus giving you more of a workout.

Haha! Dude, you just made that up.

songbyrdsweet

Running outside (bike trail, sidewalk) vs Running on a treadmill

There is ALOT more balance and coordination involved in doing Squats versus Leg Presses. The same with running on a treadmill than just running down the sidewalk in your city.

Why? Its the same, surely?

This is the whole of my question:

Why do you assert that the treadmill requires more co-ordination and balance than running outside?

How is running outside the same as running on a treadmill where it's platform is constantly moving forcing you to coordinate and balance your running on it? You can slow down, speed up, not really worry about changing footing outside with very little problem of falling. On a treadmill you are forced to maintain the steady pace unless you change the speed setting on it. You can't just slow down when you want to unless you change the speed setting. If you kept the same pace, then slowed down you could lose balance and fall.

Not really sure how you can call it the same.

Actually, running on a treadmill uses less energy than running outside given the same pace. The treadmill ground is moving under you, carrying your ground foot and giving it more momentum to kick back and reset the running motion. Also, you're making no forward movement as you are when running outside.

You can argue this if you want, but it's physics and biomechanics, not really an argument to be made.

Song I was referring to the balance and coordination factor involved in running. Thats what my analogy was about, not energy usage.

But running outside causes more fatigue in your ground leg...thereby reducing your capacity for balance. Both treadmill and outside running require you to have only one foot on the ground at a time with a short bout of being airborne. So in terms of coordination...still the same.

sh0ck

I would also be interested in seeing a study by the NIH or by Harvard Science that shows running on a treadmill surface is alot worse for your joints than running out on an asphault bike trail or on a concrete sidewalk.

I would be interested in seeing a study by the NIH or by Harvard Science that shows running on a treadmill surface requires more than DOUBLE the amount of coordination and balance in your entire body than running out on an asphault bike trail or on a concrete sidewalk.

Paddy31

How is running outside the same as running on a treadmill where it's platform is constantly moving forcing you to coordinate and balance your running on it? You can slow down, speed up, not really worry about changing footing outside with very little problem of falling. On a treadmill you are forced to maintain the steady pace unless you change the speed setting on it. You can't just slow down when you want to unless you change the speed setting. If you kept the same pace, then slowed down you could lose balance and fall.

Not really sure how you can call it the same.

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000165.html

From the point of view of mechanics there is no difference between belt moving under our feet and our body moving forward in over ground running provided the velocity is the same. Indeed we are operating here with the same speed and consequently with the same forces on the ground and the same muscular efforts.

The article continues to suggest small biomechanical differences in between treadmill and outdoor running - namely that there is some additional upper body involvement when running on the treadmill and running on the ground requires a "much more sophisticated relationship between our feet and our body and consequently a much better neuromuscular regulation and coordination"

It also points out that everyone runs faster and the treadmill since the movement of the belt helps to maintain speed.

You said that running on a treadmill is twice as good as running on the ground. I can't find any evidence to support this statement.

songbyrdsweet

How is running outside the same as running on a treadmill where it's platform is constantly moving forcing you to coordinate and balance your running on it? You can slow down, speed up, not really worry about changing footing outside with very little problem of falling. On a treadmill you are forced to maintain the steady pace unless you change the speed setting on it. You can't just slow down when you want to unless you change the speed setting. If you kept the same pace, then slowed down you could lose balance and fall.

Not really sure how you can call it the same.

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000165.html

From the point of view of mechanics there is no difference between belt moving under our feet and our body moving forward in over ground running provided the velocity is the same. Indeed we are operating here with the same speed and consequently with the same forces on the ground and the same muscular efforts.

The article continues to suggest small biomechanical differences in between treadmill and outdoor running - namely that there is some additional upper body involvement when running on the treadmill and running on the ground requires a "much more sophisticated relationship between our feet and our body and consequently a much better neuromuscular regulation and coordination"

It also points out that everyone runs faster and the treadmill since the movement of the belt helps to maintain speed.

You said that running on a treadmill is twice as good as running on the ground. I can't find any evidence to support this statement.

SO MUCH WIN!!

Hellbent_Heidi

I too have noticed the huge body + chicken legs guys at the gym, and I don't get how they can think they look good (one guy at my gym even wears the spandex bike shorts - yuck!)

Personally, I use the step-trainer a lot, and always set the crossramp low enough so that I'm working each muscle area (butt, thighs, hamstrings, calves). I have seen a notable difference in my legs, in how they look and feel just from doing that machine more frequently (plus it burns a ton of calories).

Paddy31

A bit more stuff I found

Biomechanics
Running on a treadmills does not exactly mimic outside natural running. Treadmill users do not experience the same wind resistance experienced as runners who train outside. Wind resistance increases your workload between 2 and 10 percent, depending on how fast your are running. Rick Morris, author of "Treadmill Training for Runners," writing on the website Running Planet, explains that studies analyzing the biomechanical differences between running on a treadmill and natural surfaces report conflicting data. Some studies indicate that stride length on a treadmill may be longer than outside running; others indicate that stride length is shorter. More experienced runners may have longer strides when running on the treadmill, whereas inexperienced runners seem to have the opposite results. Some treadmill runners tend to spend more time on their support leg compared to running outside. This decreases their efficiency. The posture of some runners also changes. When on a treadmill, some runners appear to lean forward slightly less than when running outside. This causes them to waste some of their energy on an up and down motion, rather than focusing on forward momentum.
Loss of Ancillary Benefits
Running on a treadmill allows you to run on a consistent surface area. You will not encounter obstacles, such as stones, soft or hard areas, wet or dry areas or other combination surfaces. While this may seem like an advantage, challenging your body to run over these surfaces improves proprioception, or the ability of your neuromuscular system to correct for these surface effects. Challenging or simply just changing surfaces helps build coordination among your brain, muscles, body parts and joints. Coordination and perception of your body in space affects balance and power. Treadmill running lacks this important benefit.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/383550-the-disadvantages-of-a-treadmill-machine/

LorinaLynn

All I can say is you must have perfectly flat sidewalks where you live! When I run outside, I'm up and down the pavement crossing roads, high-stepping over broken paving stones and where tree roots are busting through, feeling the burn of even the smallest undulation, changing surface from tarmac to concrete to paving stones to cinder paths to grass. And to doubly prove how much balance and coordination it takes, I've tripped over more than once in pot-holes and over irregular paving stones while running outdoors when I've lost my concentration, but never on the treadmill, where I barely need to lift my feet an inch to move forward!

My thoughts exactly! Maybe running on nice smooth rubber track is the same or easier than a treadmill, but it takes coordination and balance just to WALK on the sidewalks and streets in my 'hood! :laugh:

I can run on a treadmill and not even think about it. I can watch soap operas and be totally engrossed in the story. My thoughts outside are more along the line of "stay vertical," "watch for traffic," "avoid that pothole," and "oh, F-WORD, another hill?!"

songbyrdsweet

Joe, you may also want to do some research on periodization and specificity. Know why runners run a lot? It makes them better at RUNNING. They have to be very specific and careful about the type of resistance training they do. Hypertrophy and endurance signaling cascades not only compete--one will shut the other off. I promise you don't want to argue with me on this one.

songbyrdsweet

Joe, you may also want to do some research on periodization and specificity. Know why runners run a lot? It makes them better at RUNNING. They have to be very specific and careful about the type of resistance training they do. Hypertrophy and endurance signaling cascades not only compete--one will shut the other off. I promise you don't want to argue with me on this one.

ninerbuff

Here's why many don't train legs as much or as intense as upper body. Because it's DAMN HARD WORK!!!!!! And some people who "claim" they work hard in the gym and don't work legs are flat out full of BS.
Legs, along with the glutes, are the largest and strongest muscles in the body and to tax and overload requires lots of hard intensity and energy. Doing a few sets of leg extensions, abduction/adduction exercises ISN'T working legs. Maybe a light stimulation, but nothing like squatting, leg pressing, hack squatting, lunging, and step ups with challenging weight!!

And just like the gym is full on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, but reduces in population on Thursday, Friday and the weekend, it seems all the bench pressers, back rowers, fly machines, etc. are full at the beginning of the week. Hardly see anyone train legs at the beginning of the week.
My philosophy I teach my clients is to train the exercise you HATE the most at the beginning of the week where you drive and enthusiasm is highest. Usually that will also be a weak body part like legs. Then train the body parts you LOVE near the end of the week so you don't skip out or "promise to do it next week".

I LOVE training legs. Not my best body part, but balanced with the rest of my physique.

joejccva71

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

songbyrdsweet

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

I'd say...what's the point of a 1% increase? :huh:

joejccva71

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

I'd say...what's the point of a 1% increase? :huh:

Because at even a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the energy output between treadmill running vs outdoor running is very minimal, in fact it makes up the difference almost.

Paddy31

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

As I've been saying, treadmill and outdoor are about the same. You suggested that the treadmill requires twice as much co-ordination and balance as outdoor. I am arguing that it does not and have presented some fairly reliable sources.

Paddy31

This is the statement I have a problem with:

Then I proceeded to explain to him that running on the treadmill requires more than DOUBLE the amount of coordination and balance in your entire body over running outside thus giving you more of a workout.

Do you have anything to support it or can we agree that you were given duff info?

bcattoes

Running outside (bike trail, sidewalk) vs Running on a treadmill

There is ALOT more balance and coordination involved in doing Squats versus Leg Presses. The same with running on a treadmill than just running down the sidewalk in your city.

Why? Its the same, surely?

This is the whole of my question:

Why do you assert that the treadmill requires more co-ordination and balance than running outside?

M personal perspective: I ran on a road mostly. It had a few inclines steeper than I've ever seen on a treadmill (I live in a hilly area), but for the most part you could get the same incline. But apparently I don't run in a perfectly straight line so if I tried to run on a treadmill I tended to run off the belt unless I really concentrated, which just made the treadmill even more boring than running in one place already was because I could never get "in the zone" because I was too concerned with not falling off and breaking my leg!

But I think the opposite would be true of running on a non-paved surface (field, trial, whatever). I'm sure you would need a lot of balance and coordination if you don't want to twist and ankle. Which is another reason I ran on the road, and don't run anymore.

songbyrdsweet

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

I'd say...what's the point of a 1% increase? :huh:

Because at even a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the energy output between treadmill running vs outdoor running is very minimal, in fact it makes up the difference almost.

How are you coming to these conclusions??

joejccva71

What about if there is even a slight increase in treadmill grade versus outdoor running as far as energy cost? Let's even say 1% treadmill incline versus outdoor running.

What would you say then?

I'd say...what's the point of a 1% increase? :huh:

Because at even a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the energy output between treadmill running vs outdoor running is very minimal, in fact it makes up the difference almost.

How are you coming to these conclusions??

A study showed that when there was a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the differences between outdoor running vs treadmill running were minimal. That's all.

And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.

taso42_DELETED

I HATE HATE HATE lower body day. But I do it anyway.

Paddy31

Because at even a 1% increase in treadmill grade, the energy output between treadmill running vs outdoor running is very minimal, in fact it makes up the difference almost.

How are you coming to these conclusions??
[/quote]

Actually there are a number of studies that show that increasing the incline on a treadmill gives the same energy output as running on the flat. The value varies depending on the study but the generally say at least a 1% increase is needed.

Paddy31

And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.

I posted 2 links earlier which are from good sources (Livestrong and Dr. Romanov Running). I enjoyed the argument

BerryH

Here's a reference to 1% treadmill incline most accurately reflects the energetic costs of outdoor running:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8887211

Here's a reference to why outdoor running requires more coordination and balance, and why that is good for you:
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/treadmill-versus-outside-running.html

Overcoming Running Surface Differences

When you run outside you are moving over changing terrain. The slant and incline of the ground is always changing. The surface you are running over may also change. You might move from concrete to gravel or grass to asphalt. The smooth and even surface of the treadmill cannot be made rough and uneven. The main negative result of this is the lack of propreoceptive training. Proprioception is an important skill when running on the treadmill. Proprioception is basically intuitively feeling and knowing the position and motion of your body, feet, legs, arms, etc. at all times. It is being aware of all of the different actions of your running stride. This is something that, to a limited extent, you do naturally. But to maximize your level of awareness, practice consciously being aware of your position on the belt, the amount of forward lean, the position of your hips, the angle of your feet and all stages of your running stride.

When running outside, you encounter all types of uneven and unstable running surfaces. A changing surface will force your neuromuscular system to become more proprioceptive because it must make split second adjustments in order to keep your body stable and moving in the right direction. The flat and even surface of the treadmill removes this valuable training opportunity. So, if you do most or all of your workouts on the treadmill, you should practice proprioception at all times. You can also use a wobble board. A wobble board is just what it sounds like. It is a board with a half sphere on the bottom of it. It “wobbles” when you step or stand on it. Performing exercises on this type of board will help build and maintain those proprioceptive skills.

Proprioception is important in all running activities, but even more so when running on the treadmill. Runners tend to allow the action of the belt and the lack of wind resistance to change their stride to a more upright, bouncy form with a shorter, less powerful stride. Being more aware of your running mechanics will make it easier to transfer your normal stride to the treadmill and visa versa.

And another:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376459-running-on-the-treadmill-vs-outside/

Terrain

The treadmill is free of potholes, gravel pits, cracked cement and other uneven terrain you often encounter outdoors. While this may seem like a good thing, it can also mess up your balance and proprioception when you do run outside. Proprioception is your body's innate awareness of its position and movement at all times, an awareness that works to adjust itself over uneven ground. If you constantly run on the treadmill but intend to move it outside, Running Planet suggests training on a wobble board to keep your proprioception keen.

JennLifts

I've seen those stickly legged men and women, and they look odd, and on men, i don't find it attractive at all.
At my gym, the leg press, and smiths are constantly being used to do squats (with wrong form obviously LOL), or free squats, deadlifts, calf raises.
I did however meet a fellow calf raiser yesterday, that said there IS something (can't remember the name) that some people get, like stubborn calves or something, and your calves wont gain mass. He said his are really strong, but as far as actual physical size, he cant get them to get any bigger. He saw some people go as far as implants to fix this.----what?!

joejccva71

Here's a reference to why outdoor running requires more coordination and balance, and why that is good for you:
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/treadmill-versus-outside-running.html

Overcoming Running Surface Differences

When you run outside you are moving over changing terrain. The slant and incline of the ground is always changing. The surface you are running over may also change. You might move from concrete to gravel or grass to asphalt. The smooth and even surface of the treadmill cannot be made rough and uneven. The main negative result of this is the lack of propreoceptive training. Proprioception is an important skill when running on the treadmill. Proprioception is basically intuitively feeling and knowing the position and motion of your body, feet, legs, arms, etc. at all times. It is being aware of all of the different actions of your running stride. This is something that, to a limited extent, you do naturally. But to maximize your level of awareness, practice consciously being aware of your position on the belt, the amount of forward lean, the position of your hips, the angle of your feet and all stages of your running stride.

When running outside, you encounter all types of uneven and unstable running surfaces. A changing surface will force your neuromuscular system to become more proprioceptive because it must make split second adjustments in order to keep your body stable and moving in the right direction. The flat and even surface of the treadmill removes this valuable training opportunity. So, if you do most or all of your workouts on the treadmill, you should practice proprioception at all times. You can also use a wobble board. A wobble board is just what it sounds like. It is a board with a half sphere on the bottom of it. It “wobbles” when you step or stand on it. Performing exercises on this type of board will help build and maintain those proprioceptive skills.

Proprioception is important in all running activities, but even more so when running on the treadmill. Runners tend to allow the action of the belt and the lack of wind resistance to change their stride to a more upright, bouncy form with a shorter, less powerful stride. Being more aware of your running mechanics will make it easier to transfer your normal stride to the treadmill and visa versa.

And another:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376459-running-on-the-treadmill-vs-outside/

Terrain

The treadmill is free of potholes, gravel pits, cracked cement and other uneven terrain you often encounter outdoors. While this may seem like a good thing, it can also mess up your balance and proprioception when you do run outside. Proprioception is your body's innate awareness of its position and movement at all times, an awareness that works to adjust itself over uneven ground. If you constantly run on the treadmill but intend to move it outside, Running Planet suggests training on a wobble board to keep your proprioception keen.

Not trying to continue this debacle about running, but those aren't studies.

joejccva71

And to answer Paddy's question, unfortunately I don't have a study or any science to back up the coordination and balance requirement statement so we'll have to dismiss that statement as having any concrete evidence to it. But I'd be interested in reading an actual study that shows where the balance and coordination is the same between the two.

I posted 2 links earlier which are from good sources (Livestrong and Dr. Romanov Running). I enjoyed the argument

Livestrong is hardly a good reputable source. I'll read more on the Dr. Romanov Running. Thanks.

bzmom

I run (for the most part) for my cardio and then sometimes I do either zumba or BBL. But for my weight lifting days (which Im trying to get back to my routine and its been hard) I do Chalean and yes she works arms, legs, back you name it!!

liftingbro

I guess the bottom line here between treadmill and road is that it's pretty hard to tell. Too many varying factors.

Outdoors the terrain and conditions are always different. On a treadmill it's more constant but you still have pace, grade...ect.

However, should you be able to have the same conditions outside and on a treadmill (as close as possible, same grade, same pace, no wind, rain...ect) , I think the burn would be about the same or wouldn't differ enought to matter. I would think running outside would be harder on joints depending on the surface, but I think running on grass,dirt, or a soft track might even up the difference some. Sure, treadmill is not without wear and tear, but I don't think it's close to the same as running on concrete or tar.

Not studies or science to back it up but commonsense would say that hard surfaces are probably worse on the joints that a treadmill. How much worse? Hard to tell.

ambermichon

I notice men do not train legs that often. I go to the gym 6 days a week and lift 3-4 and always do legs. It has made me a better runner.....plus the results you get from squats, hamstring curls etc are great.....really gets your heartrate up too!