13 millionth post about deficit etc. Humor me...

colorfulcupcakes

Thanks for all your patient and helpful responses Ladyhawk.

Here's an interesting article i just read, for anyone interested...

http://johnbarban.com/weight-loss-fallacies-2lbs-per-week-and-1200-calories-per-day/

ladyhawk00

Xraychick77 is completely right. I am so tired of reading post by people saying that if you are eating too far under your calories that you will stop losing weight, or even begin gaining weight! HAHA Yeah right! It's simply just not true. Weight loss is simply about calories in, calories out.
Eating too few calories may decrease your metabolism, and decrease your quality of life, but it sure as heck isn't going to make you gain weight.
I'm a wrestler so I have done plenty of unhealthy crash diets to make weight (eating 500 calories for multiple days) never once have I seen a person completly stop losing weight or gain weight from it.
How do you explain people losing weights on extended fasts? Your body uses fat and muscle for energy, you can fast for a month and still be losing considerable amounts of weight.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/230930-starvation-mode-how-it-works

Here is a short list of just some of the respected research that validates the fact that too large of a deficit WILL decrease RMR and cause loss of muscle. There are many others, but this is a good start if you're interested in studies regarding lowered metabolism and loss of lean mass, in the case of LCD/VLCD, which can slow or stop weight loss.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/53/4/826.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2613433?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/49/1/93.full.pdf+html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/45/2/391.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6694559&dopt=AbstractPlus
http://www.ajcn.org/content/57/2/127.full.pdf
http://www.ajcn.org/content/51/2/167.abstract?ck=nck
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n3/abs/0803720a.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0887/is_n7-8_v15/ai_18602507/
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Human-Starvation-I/dp/0816672342/ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Human-Starvation-II/dp/0816672334/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Exactly! You are proving exactly what we are saying. Your body starts burning FAT! Exactly why everyone is here. It's not the smartest or healthiest way to diet, but it is just not true that these people are gaining weight or even not losing anyweight at all from eating too few calories.
And on another note most these people that are talking about this are eating over 1000 calories. They are not going to go into starvation mode.

Um, no, I'm not. :laugh: It's burning fat IF there is sufficient fat to burn. Someone who is obese can withstand a far larger deficit than someone with 15 lbs to lose. Fat can only be accessed in a certain amount in a short period of time. And the less fat stores there, the less readily accessible the fat is. So, for example (just throwing out random numbers for illustration), for someone at 30% BF, say the body can only convert 500 calories from fat for energy in a 24 hour period. It WILL find a way to make up the difference - through burning muscle and other LBM and reducing energy expenditure by making you feel tired and fatigued. The body simply can't just convert fat for ALL energy needs. So when you are eating at too large of a deficit, it will attempt to decrease energy needs and use the fastest source of energy (muscle).

Aside from weight loss, however, there is the consideration of nutrition. You simply cannot obtain enough macros/micros with too low of a caloric intake - calories = macros in some form. A severely restricted intake almost guarantees malnutrition (unless it's a specific diet devised by a dietitian - which few people here have.)

There is a point beyond which the deficit is too extreme and these attempts at preservation are not enough to compensate (typically below 600-800 cals) - and then you will see plenty of weight loss, in the form of fat and a huge percentage of LBM (to include muscle, bone, organs, skin). This is called starvation. And it can have permanent effects.

So...why is trying to help people avoid these negative consequences a bad thing?

(Edited for typos again...sheesh my typing is awful today!)

idwoof

As I said I understand that it is not healthy. This site does a good job of giving you the amount of calories you should burn if you are honest and answer the questions truthfully and input your food and exercise correctly.
The problem I have is that everytime someone says they aren't losing weight on here, someone gets on and tells them it's because they aren't eating enough. AND THATS NOT TRUE. If they weren't eating enough they would be losing weight, it may not be the healthy way to lose weight, but they would still be losing.
It just bothers me that these people that aren't losing weight are being told to eat more, what they most likely should be told is to reexamine their lifestyle. When they filled out their profile did they say they were an active person when in reality they spend most of the day at home? Did they jog for 30 minutes, and enter it as them running for 30 minutes? Did they eat a large sandwich and enter it as a normal size one?
The people that I see ask questions are usually eating greater than 1000 calories which is good, and like in the article above, starvation mode wouldn't kick in unless they were eating much less than that.

mermx

IMO lots of people on MFP have lost a lot of weight and people are continuing to lose weight based on the recommended calories and exercise calories.

If you are not losing weight then you need to follow the `plan` that is advised.

If you eat a little more protein then you will lose weight a little faster.

If you reach a plateau (as I have done a couple of weeks ago, then maybe zig zag your calories for a day or two?) This put me back on track with losing.

We all (I think) got to being on this website by being overweight and losing a little control....it is very easy to think you do not overeat...and it is also very easy to think `this little bit of food is not worth logging`

At the end of the day, it is calories in and calories out...some food calories are a little more healthy and progressive for burning as others. But we all need to eat a certain amount for a healthy body, and we all need exercise to keep our body strong to survive.

If you exercise and are on a calorie controlled diet, then you need to feed your body some healthy calories back.

So my advice is do not try to look to deeply into the whys and wherefores, of physiology, as doctors, dieticians and the medical profession don`t agree on anything!

Just eat less, but enough to feed your body and brain healthily and exercise to keep your body storng!

AEROBICVIC

hello! you are not alone here, believe me im in the same boat. i did not read all the posts under yours but im going to give you info about what is going on with me. you'll find many experts giving you info that has been studied and proven. i agree with most, i've been studying and working in the fitness world for over 14 years. i will be the 1st to tell you, every BODY is diff. im 43 and just made an apt to have blood work drawn because i feel i have some type of hormone/thyroid issue. i have kept a food/exercise journal for 8 years. i have experimented with the ratios (prot, carb & fats) along with calorie intake, recorded how my body responded and noted every change. i have pages of info! i am 190 lbs at about 25% body fat. i keep putting on wt. i've been teaching aerobics and lifting wts for 14 years. which in some ways is great, some bad. my endurance levels are so high because of all that i do that it makes it hard to add or change my cardio and see changes. i grew up on a 60-horse farm cleaning stalls, riding/training 15-20 horses a day, putting up hay and ect. so my life has been a very active one. a lot of the info you will get is for the average person, not an athlete. i've researched these topics for years and tried several types of eating plans and workouts. my diet is clean, has been for years. i eat 6-10 small meals a day. i've taken in over 2000 calories down to 1000. i've experimented and kept a journal of all. i usually give 3-6 months on a new plan to see how it effects my body. i am just as frustrated as you! i workout and train hard 5 days a week normally. i've added running to my routines and took out some lifting for the summer and still no changes. i drink 1 to 1.5 gallons of water a day, no pop, no coffee....nothing but water. i will say i am very strong but have a lot of 'fat" to my body that i want rid of. i am not happy with my wt. i've been to dr.s, tried diet pills, fat burners, starving myself, eating tons and the end result is always the same with the fact that i keep putting on wt each year. last year we sold our gym and merged with a local Y. i cut back to teaching 2-3 classes a week and took time off away from the gym. i still did all my other activities (walked our hillside, split wood, farm work, yard work) i wasn't as strict on my diet. didn't eat terrible, just not as clean. i did this for about 5-6 months. just wanted to live a "normal life" and give my body a break from hitting it hard every day...end result of that....15 pounds added to my body! Jan 1st of this year i got back on track, hard, heavy lifting (powerlifting), cleaned up diet. added more calories (clean cals), i did this for 3 months, cut back on powerlifting, did more bodybuidling routines, still taught my aerobic/zumba classes and within those 6 months, did not drop a pound! i've been with nutritionists, prof powerlifters, prof body builders.....i take their advice, follow strict and still in the same boat....talk about driving a person crazy! i will find out in a few weeks when i see my new family dr and have more blood work done. i had it checked 3 years ago and my numbers were perfect. i'm wondering if my hormones are out of whack and causing my body not to react to healthy clean eating and exercise. i really don't have any advice for you since i haven't found what works with me yet but i will say, don't stop trying. don't stop researching foods and info. learn something everday. this summer we got 33 chickens for eggs, put in a huge garden and will be purchasing our beef from local farmer. i really have to wonder how much this will effect our health. i've been reading a lot on all the commercial foods that have been processed and animals being feed growth hormones and ect....what is really happening to our bodies because of it? i've made a choice to eat as much home grown foods for my family and myself. i really hope this helps! keep researching, keep trying!

sherisaid

This turned out to be quite a heated debate! Lots of great information here. One thing I'd like to mention is that diabetics often wind up getting bariatric surgery, and almost immediately their blood sugar normalized. Researchers in England set out to find out why and tested a small group of diabetics on a diet similar to a post-bariatric surgery diet, which consists of a very low calorie menu, mostly nutritional shakes.

While I absolutely do not recommend trying this on your own, the results were very impressive, so I approached my doctor about a short term, modified approach. With his support - and blood tests as frequently as my insurance will support - I'm going to try an 800 calorie approach using a post-bariatric surgery diet as a guide. My doctor was nor comfortable with 600 calories, and I can't say that I disagree. Besides, I do not plan to stop exercising. The researchers found that the level of fat in the pancreas dropped and insulin production returned to normal. It only took a few weeks. I plan to try this for 2 weeks, check in with my doctor, and decide what to do from there. I have to remind myself to add calories to bring my daily vount up to 1K, so dropping to 800 won't be difficult. I've already worked out a menu that includes 2 shakes a day, a vegetable soup with a huge variety of nutrients -across the color spectrum- and plenty of fiber.

Here's the article that inspired me: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909
The study included only newly diagnosed diabetics and I am not newly diagnosed. But I don't see evidence that it's been tried on anyone else. I'll let you know how it goes.

ladyhawk00

This turned out to be quite a heated debate! Lots of great information here. One thing I'd like to mention is that diabetics often wind up getting bariatric surgery, and almost immediately their blood sugar normalized. Researchers in England set out to find out why and tested a small group of diabetics on a diet similar to a post-bariatric surgery diet, which consists of a very low calorie menu, mostly nutritional shakes.

While I absolutely do not recommend trying this on your own, the results were very impressive, so I approached my doctor about a short term, modified approach. With his support - and blood tests as frequently as my insurance will support - I'm going to try an 800 calorie approach using a post-bariatric surgery diet as a guide. My doctor was nor comfortable with 600 calories, and I can't say that I disagree. Besides, I do not plan to stop exercising. The researchers found that the level of fat in the pancreas dropped and insulin production returned to normal. It only took a few weeks. I plan to try this for 2 weeks, check in with my doctor, and decide what to do from there. I have to remind myself to add calories to bring my daily vount up to 1K, so dropping to 800 won't be difficult. I've already worked out a menu that includes 2 shakes a day, a vegetable soup with a huge variety of nutrients -across the color spectrum- and plenty of fiber.

Here's the article that inspired me: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909
The study included only newly diagnosed diabetics and I am not newly diagnosed. But I don't see evidence that it's been tried on anyone else. I'll let you know how it goes.

There are two reasons this can be an appropriate plan for you:

First, you are under doctor's supervision, with close monitoring. Most people here are not.

Second, you have a large amount of fat stores and can withstand a much larger deficit than most people. And you are diabetic, which gives a greater incentive to lose weight more quickly.

Even when it's possible to lose weight quickly, with an LCD or VLCD, there are certain serious risks with rapid weight loss. In some circumstances, the benefits may outweigh the risks due to medical complications of obesity (such as diabetes) - but the risks are still there.

For most people, the risks of a VLCD and rapid weight loss far outweigh the benefits.

At any rate, hope it works well for you and you reach your goals. :flowerforyou:

HisBeloved65

Xraychick77 is completely right. I am so tired of reading post by people saying that if you are eating too far under your calories that you will stop losing weight, or even begin gaining weight! HAHA Yeah right! It's simply just not true. Weight loss is simply about calories in, calories out.
Eating too few calories may decrease your metabolism, and decrease your quality of life, but it sure as heck isn't going to make you gain weight.
I'm a wrestler so I have done plenty of unhealthy crash diets to make weight (eating 500 calories for multiple days) never once have I seen a person completly stop losing weight or gain weight from it.
How do you explain people losing weights on extended fasts? Your body uses fat and muscle for energy, you can fast for a month and still be losing considerable amounts of weight.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/230930-starvation-mode-how-it-works

Here is a short list of just some of the respected research that validates the fact that too large of a deficit WILL decrease RMR and cause loss of muscle. There are many others, but this is a good start if you're interested in studies regarding lowered metabolism and loss of lean mass, in the case of LCD/VLCD, which can slow or stop weight loss.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/53/4/826.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2613433?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/49/1/93.full.pdf+html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/45/2/391.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6694559&dopt=AbstractPlus
http://www.ajcn.org/content/57/2/127.full.pdf
http://www.ajcn.org/content/51/2/167.abstract?ck=nck
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n3/abs/0803720a.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0887/is_n7-8_v15/ai_18602507/
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Human-Starvation-I/dp/0816672342/ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Human-Starvation-II/dp/0816672334/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Exactly! You are proving exactly what we are saying. Your body starts burning FAT! Exactly why everyone is here. It's not the smartest or healthiest way to diet, but it is just not true that these people are gaining weight or even not losing anyweight at all from eating too few calories.
And on another note most these people that are talking about this are eating over 1000 calories. They are not going to go into starvation mode.

Um, no, I'm not. :laugh: It's burning fat IF there is sufficient fat to burn. Someone who is obese can withstand a far larger deficit than someone with 15 lbs to lose. Fat can only be accessed in a certain amount in a short period of time. And the less fat stores there, the less readily accessible the fat is. So, for example (just throwing out random numbers for illustration), for someone at 30% BF, say the body can only convert 500 calories from fat for energy in a 24 hour period. It WILL find a way to make up the difference - through burning muscle and other LBM and reducing energy expenditure by making you feel tired and fatigued. The body simply can't just convert fat for ALL energy needs. So when you are eating at too large of a deficit, it will attempt to decrease energy needs and use the fastest source of energy (muscle).

Aside from weight loss, however, there is the consideration of nutrition. You simply cannot obtain enough macros/micros with too low of a caloric intake - calories = macros in some form. A severely restricted intake almost guarantees malnutrition (unless it's a specific diet devised by a dietitian - which few people here have.)

There is a point beyond which the deficit is too extreme and these attempts at preservation are not enough to compensate (typically below 600-800 cals) - and then you will see plenty of weight loss, in the form of fat and a huge percentage of LBM (to include muscle, bone, organs, skin). This is called starvation. And it can have permanent effects.

So...why is trying to help people avoid these negative consequences a bad thing?

(Edited for typos again...sheesh my typing is awful today!)

well I am believin and considering the folks I see on here who are losing weight. Not crash diet but changing the way we think about food and exercise. I believe was not giving my body enough fuel. Today I was so hungry all day. I made good choices but I was hungry all day. So I added some earlier morning choices, cut out one protein shake and replaced it with chicken and salad with almond slices on top. Today my food goal was 1330, my food intake was 1600 and I burned 458 calories. End result my net calories were 1115. This just makes sense to me. We will see how it plays out in my body over time...I didnt think eating less would be a problem for me as I started out with 76 lbs to lose so I dont know. I think my body told the story today and I sticking with it.
thank you Ladyhawk I appreciate your feedback. This is a life change for me, not a weight loss marathon.

ladyhawk00

well I am believin and considering the folks I see on here who are losing weight. Not crash diet but changing the way we think about food and exercise. I believe was not giving my body enough fuel. Today I was so hungry all day. I made good choices but I was hungry all day. So I added some earlier morning choices, cut out one protein shake and replaced it with chicken and salad with almond slices on top. Today my food goal was 1330, my food intake was 1600 and I burned 458 calories. End result my net calories were 1115. This just makes sense to me. We will see how it plays out in my body over time...I didnt think eating less would be a problem for me as I started out with 76 lbs to lose so I dont know. I think my body told the story today and I sticking with it.
thank you Ladyhawk I appreciate your feedback. This is a life change for me, not a weight loss marathon.

Sounds like a great start! I went through some of the same issues, and I can't begin to tell you how different it is when you eat regularly, eat an appropriate amount of healthy food (and have treats in moderation) - a lot more energy to work out, better sleep, better moods, less binges, the list goes on and on.

Just work on planning and consistency and I'm sure you'll do great. Good luck reaching your goals!

Funkysuelee

Hi guys, just to keep you guys posted. Since reading this thread, I have adjusted settings on mfp i put in my weight, height, etc, it gave me a calorie goal of 1490cals a day. I also excercise 3 days a week and burn 530cals on those days. so i end up with a defecit of about 900-1000 cals a day. I realised that it is too much of a defecit so have started eating back half of my excercise calories, i find that i have more energy to work out and feel much better I have finally found a medium that works. I am seeing that the results are much faster by sticking to this. Already in one week i am seeing my body shape change and my clothes are getting looser. On the days i don't excercise i still have a defecit of about 300 from my goal calories. I have notice my motabolism speeding up, I feel satisfied after eating and then a couple of hours later i get hungry again. It feels so good that my body is starting to function at it's peak condition. So glad i came across this thread.

Michelle_M2002

I wear a Bodybugg. So I can keep track of what I'm ACTUALLY burning, and compare it to my food log. Some days I burn more than others, and some days I burn less. This really increased my loss rate from .5 -1 pound a week, to 2-3 pounds a week.

I'll be honest, I just can't seem to "get" the way MFP calculates, and this is just easier for me to see a straight deficit, rather than trying to eat back calories, or guessing at how many calories I actually burned and over estimating.

God bless!

Edited: I just read that the last post was your update. It's awesome that you've been able to figure out what works for YOU!

God bless!