Shock the body?
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I think that as long as your burning calories and working various muscle groups your going to get results. Regardless of how you go about doing that.
The body really does adapt too rapidly for anyone to really confuse it.
I think that changing it up, is more so advantageous for those that have yet to find what really works for them.0 -
It seems to me that what you're asking for as far as proof/evidence, is what you're getting from everyone here but you're not really seeing it. Scientific proof isn't necessarily in tangible evidence, especially when dealing with the human body, but moreover repeated and consistent results when conducting an experiment.
If everyone who does this type of dieting/exercising switch-up indicates that it works, then that is the proof that it works. It's silly to say that you need ACTUAL PROOF because there isn't a way to provide any type of tangible evidence for this type of hypothesis. The fact of the matter is that the experts recommend changing your dietary and exercise routines for increased weight loss based on studies of how the human body and metabolism work - and I, and obviously many others, can tell you for a fact that it works. So there you have it. :-)
Except you are using anecdotal evidence to say that it works, the question i suppose is why do you think it works and is that backed up with actual science.0 -
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It seems to me that what you're asking for as far as proof/evidence, is what you're getting from everyone here but you're not really seeing it. Scientific proof isn't necessarily in tangible evidence, especially when dealing with the human body, but moreover repeated and consistent results when conducting an experiment.
If everyone who does this type of dieting/exercising switch-up indicates that it works, then that is the proof that it works. It's silly to say that you need ACTUAL PROOF because there isn't a way to provide any type of tangible evidence for this type of hypothesis. The fact of the matter is that the experts recommend changing your dietary and exercise routines for increased weight loss based on studies of how the human body and metabolism work - and I, and obviously many others, can tell you for a fact that it works. So there you have it. :-)
Except you are using anecdotal evidence to say that it works, the question i suppose is why do you think it works and is that backed up with actual science.
Yup. I ALWAY want to know the WHY. 'cause I'm a nerd and I like that sorta thing.
And I'd prefer that the why be backed up with scientific data.
I totally appreciate all the responses though! Even the ones that aren't giving me data.
I will look over your links, Acg67. Thank you for them
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It seems to me that what you're asking for as far as proof/evidence, is what you're getting from everyone here but you're not really seeing it. Scientific proof isn't necessarily in tangible evidence, especially when dealing with the human body, but moreover repeated and consistent results when conducting an experiment.
If everyone who does this type of dieting/exercising switch-up indicates that it works, then that is the proof that it works. It's silly to say that you need ACTUAL PROOF because there isn't a way to provide any type of tangible evidence for this type of hypothesis. The fact of the matter is that the experts recommend changing your dietary and exercise routines for increased weight loss based on studies of how the human body and metabolism work - and I, and obviously many others, can tell you for a fact that it works. So there you have it. :-)
Oh... and one more thing... people are funny creatures. They have faith in all sorts of things, so asking someone "does it work?" doesn't really produce useful data. That's why clinical trials are designed the way that they are- a good clinical trial is always a double-blind study. The patient doesn't know whether they are receiving the "real" treatment or whether they are getting a placebo. The doctor giving the treatment doesn't know either! Patients will report that they are getting results from a little pill filled with corn-starch. They honestly feel better. They believe in the results. They are not lying. This is the placebo effect and it is statistically significant! You can't separate a placebo effect (i.e. a faith-based effect) from reality without a double blind study.
So all the people saying it 'really works' are telling the truth from their point of view... but it still might not reflect a benefit from their behavior... it might instead reflect a statistically significant placebo effect.0 -
It depends on what hormones you're looking at. Some hormones are primarily regulated at a transcriptional level, which takes a while, while others can be regulated covalently and switched on/off almost immediately. When you go from a post-prandial or fasted state to a fed state, the hormones and enzymes that were causing gluconeogenesis and lypolysis are switched off immediately via covalent and allosteric regulation by hormones/enzymes that turn on lipogenesis and glycogenesis. Others, like fatty acid synthase, are transcrptionally regulated after hours/days of overnutrition. The body is never 'fooled', but in the same token, you can attempt to manipulate hormone levels, like carbing-up to increase insulin and glycogen synthesis.0
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As I understand it, our bodies are not only good at adapting to changes, but they are exceptionally good at establishing stability in our systems - at least a reasonably healthy body is. We see this effect in things such as heart rate, body temperature and blood pressure.
What we are talking about in this case is energy homeostasis, which is accomplished in our body with various hormones such as insulin and leptin. The hormonal balance in our body is established through feedback loops that tell our system what the energy needs are and what the energy sources are. If our caloric intake is consistently at a certain level, the body systems include that data in the equation, and if the caloric intake is insufficient for our energy needs, the hormones will adapt to that over time and make our metabolism more efficient - therefore burning fewer calories. Our bodies continually make these adjustments at minute levels, which is why eating something will temporarily speed up your metabolism.
This capability, it is assumed, is the product of eons of evolution, and allowed our ancestors to live through times of famine. Natural selection presumably killed off the genetic lines that did not have this inborn ability to turn down the thermostat.
So here we are, wanting to lose weight. We continually feed ourselves with a caloric deficit. The body - to achieve energy homeostasis - dips into our fat stores to run the systems - yay, the pounds start coming off. Over time however, if the caloric deficit continues, our bodies wise up and assume that there might just be a famine in the works, so the efficiencies start kicking in. Lucky us. This is where the 'shock the body' theories come into play. It is theorized that by feeding the body more, the increase will be incorporated into those feedback signals and the body will get the message that the famine is over. and the same adaptation mechanism that slowed down our metabolism will speed back up - at least temporarily.
As far as I know, these are working theories and biological models that are still being researched. Something like this may be difficult to 'prove' over a long-term study, because it is difficult to establish a control on something like this for an extended period, however, there are some short-term studies that have documented these effects.
I would prefer not to think of temporarily changing the caloric inputs as 'shocking' or 'tricking' the body, but rather as altering the feedback mechanisms that drive these processes. There are so many variables to something like this that there are certainly people who it will fail to have results with. An example would be someone with endocrine system disorders where the systems aren't necessarily functioning correctly. In general though, the concept behind this is sound. Applying it to our weight loss programs is probably not going to be very effective unless we really understand what we are doing though.0 -
When the body does something it's not accustomed to it reacts to compensate. For example if you haven't exercised for a long period of time and then take it up, the body responds by retaining water and glycogen in the assumption that it's going to happen again.I keep hearing the phrase "shock the body". Sometimes it pertains to zig-zagging calorie intake. Sometimes it pertains to changing up your exercise routine. What i want to know is: Is their any real (non-anecdotal) evidence that this works?
I'm curious because the concept doesn't fit with my preconceived notion of how our bodies work. I might be completely wrong, but it seems to me that our bodies rock at adapting to a changing environment, so 'shocking' it isn't going to shock it at all. It will just make some minor tweaks in hormone levels and you're instantly good to go.
To me, the advantage of changing things up would be a mental advantage and not a physiological one. I'd get bored eating the same way every day, so the occasional splurg counts as 'fun' and helps me maintain my diet mentality. Likewise with exercise: I'd get bored doing the same thing every day, so changing things up helps with the motivation.
Anyone wanna show me with science that I'm wrong? And I mean that in a total 'let's have a fun discussion' kind of way. Not in an 'I'm trying to start a fight and prove to everyone that I am right' kinda way
I seriously just want to know, but I don't really know where I'd go for this type of info.
So if you've dieted for an extended period of time, then have a high calorie day, the next day may reveal a loss in weight because the perception of the body is that there is a surplus of calories being added in and there will be extra energy to burn.
I'd have to look and see if I can find any real scientific evidence to back it up though. I haven't really ever thought about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
No proof what so ever except my own body. I wore a bodymedia fit. I had an exact calorie deficit of 3500-3750 for 3 weeks. I lost 1 lb a week. The fourth week I had a deficit of 1002. I lost 6 lbs. Then back to my 3500-3750 and I lost nothing. Did that for 3 weeks. 4th week I had an overage for the week and was SO depressed and angry at myself. Lost 9 lbs. I lost 18 lbs in my 8 weeks with it and most of the loss was when I did not have a deficit or had a minor one. I can't figure it out to be honest with you. I only know that through my experiences when I just stick with my 3500 calorie deficit a week I get little results. I have to "shake it up".
I also have found this to be true in my personal exercise program. Walking as fast as I can for 20 minutes burned approx. 348 calories. Walking then running then walking slower (interval) burned close to 500 for the same 20 minutes.
I'd be so interested in learning the PROOF or even the SCIENCE behind WHY this works myself. I will be staying tuned 0 -
It depends on what hormones you're looking at. Some hormones are primarily regulated at a transcriptional level, which takes a while, while others can be regulated covalently and switched on/off almost immediately. When you go from a post-prandial or fasted state to a fed state, the hormones and enzymes that were causing gluconeogenesis and lypolysis are switched off immediately via covalent and allosteric regulation by hormones/enzymes that turn on lipogenesis and glycogenesis. Others, like fatty acid synthase, are transcrptionally regulated after hours/days of overnutrition. The body is never 'fooled', but in the same token, you can attempt to manipulate hormone levels, like carbing-up to increase insulin and glycogen synthesis.
Right, but how many hours/days for each to switch on/off? and how much does it vary depending on the individual? Sorry if I'm asking something silly, I just can't find anything that answers or explains it very well.
Oh, I'm asking about nutrition here.0 -
It depends on what hormones you're looking at. Some hormones are primarily regulated at a transcriptional level, which takes a while, while others can be regulated covalently and switched on/off almost immediately. When you go from a post-prandial or fasted state to a fed state, the hormones and enzymes that were causing gluconeogenesis and lypolysis are switched off immediately via covalent and allosteric regulation by hormones/enzymes that turn on lipogenesis and glycogenesis. Others, like fatty acid synthase, are transcrptionally regulated after hours/days of overnutrition. The body is never 'fooled', but in the same token, you can attempt to manipulate hormone levels, like carbing-up to increase insulin and glycogen synthesis.
Right, but how many hours/days for each to switch on/off? and how much does it vary depending on the individual? Sorry if I'm asking something silly, I just can't find anything that answers or explains it very well.
Oh, I'm asking about nutrition here.
Some of them are really within minutes...once you turn fat synthesis on, fat oxidation turns off. Happens within a few minutes of eating a meal. 3-18 hours after the meal you are post-prandial and fat oxidation kicks back on. 18hrs-2 days of fasting and you'll see genes for protein degredation turn on. After a couple days, that turns off again until you're near death, and then turns back on. It's really more complex that I want to write about right now. :laugh:0 -
You can start here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-hormones-of-bodyweight-regulation-leptin-part-1.html
This is a 6 part series and I recommend it. Increasingly more important in lean individuals but nonetheless, a great read.
Agree with your previous post here saying it's good for sanity and mental wellbeing! I did 40 days solid intense cardio training and dieting... did lose a lot of weight and didn't plateau but I needed this weekend to realise I was going TOO low and give my body some rest and my head some rest from ridiculous calorie counting! I went out got drunk...too thin to drink well was sick...stuffed myself silly on saturday and ate healthily today... I wouldn't reccomend the being so drunk you were sick... that wasn't intentional... and proof I suppose that I had gone too far.
I had a laugh and got some good memories and great photos... used today to reevaluate my goals etc. 0 -
Some of them are really within minutes...once you turn fat synthesis on, fat oxidation turns off. Happens within a few minutes of eating a meal. 3-18 hours after the meal you are post-prandial and fat oxidation kicks back on. 18hrs-2 days of fasting and you'll see genes for protein degredation turn on. After a couple days, that turns off again until you're near death, and then turns back on. It's really more complex that I want to write about right now.
No problem! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I'm off to see if I can find anything showing how quickly leptin drops after a "cheat" meal or day. To be honest I thought the whole leptin thing went away a few years back, but I keep seeing it mentioned here on MFP. Now I'm curious to see if anything ever came of all that research. :laugh:0 -
Some of them are really within minutes...once you turn fat synthesis on, fat oxidation turns off. Happens within a few minutes of eating a meal. 3-18 hours after the meal you are post-prandial and fat oxidation kicks back on. 18hrs-2 days of fasting and you'll see genes for protein degredation turn on. After a couple days, that turns off again until you're near death, and then turns back on. It's really more complex that I want to write about right now.
No problem! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I'm off to see if I can find anything showing how quickly leptin drops after a "cheat" meal or day. To be honest I thought the whole leptin thing went away a few years back but now I'm curious to see if anything ever came of all that research. :laugh:
Leptin is released by adipose tissue in relation to the amount you have. It's transcriptionally regulated. So having 1 cheat meal isn't going to influence it to any great amount...you'd need to actually gain body fat.0 -
"The plural of anecdote is not data."It seems to me that what you're asking for as far as proof/evidence, is what you're getting from everyone here but you're not really seeing it. Scientific proof isn't necessarily in tangible evidence, especially when dealing with the human body, but moreover repeated and consistent results when conducting an experiment.
If everyone who does this type of dieting/exercising switch-up indicates that it works, then that is the proof that it works. It's silly to say that you need ACTUAL PROOF because there isn't a way to provide any type of tangible evidence for this type of hypothesis. The fact of the matter is that the experts recommend changing your dietary and exercise routines for increased weight loss based on studies of how the human body and metabolism work - and I, and obviously many others, can tell you for a fact that it works. So there you have it. :-)
What the OP seems to be looking is feedback from people who can provide insight or links into how something works. There's no problem with a lot of folks posting what they believe is true but my critical thinking skills require evidence, not observations.
A good starting point would be to explain why something happens. For example, many folks swear that they lose more weight when they eat more. I have no doubt that many folks believe this but I've yet to see an actual explanation as to how this works. And having an explanation of how something works is what separates science from magic.
Personally, I have no problem with people expressing their feelings and sharing what they think work. I may even do that myself from time to time. What is very valuable in establishing credibility are links to medical sources - not copy and paste from a Yahoo article or a link to yet another lengthy essay about "starvation mode" or a paraphrasing of a Wiki article. What helps me are links to research papers, results of clinical trials, etc.
Here's an excellent example:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2002/aug/080802.html
The author is an MD, a professor at a Tier 1 school, and the author of a book on the subject matter. He presents his thesis, states his methods, argues his points, provides an abstract and a summary.
Same subject, different source, similar conclusion, but not as credible:
http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp
A final example is a fellow who "dramatically lost 30 pounds in 90 days" or somesuch and who warned everyone that they had to cut out black pepper to lose weight quickly. There were no citations, footnotes, caveats, etc. Just a fellow who was really, really proud of himself making a statement that failed to fit into any part of understanding of how our body handles food. Without supporting evidence, with a thesis that runs contrary to anything observable, and that offers no insight into how black pepper stops us from losing weight, his posting, while enthusiastic, was of little value to me.
So, it's not that the OP is blowing off the beliefs of posters but perhaps she's not convinced because the replies are just repeating people's impressions rather than offering information that backs up their assertions.0 -
For example, many folks swear that they lose more weight when they eat more. I have no doubt that many folks believe this but I've yet to see an actual explanation as to how this works.
Spontaneous upregulation of NEAT. Dropping calories too low can lead to an unconscious decrease in activity, while eating more can reverse the trend
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/286/5/E675.long0 -
Tons but first you must get to the point where you reach a plateau in your workout and diet.
When this happens, shake things up. It works.
Change what you do for cardio and resistance. And once a week allow yourself a free day to account for your body's tendency to down-regulate the effects of dieting.
This is what folks do to break through those times when walls form blocking progress.
I lost over 60 lbs this way, and I eat over 3000 calories daily while most others are starving themselves on their rabbit diets.
No thanks to that!0 -
Tons but first you must get to the point where you reach a plateau in your workout and diet.
When this happens, shake things up. It works.
Change what you do for cardio and resistance. And once a week allow yourself a free day to account for your body's tendency to down-regulate the effects of dieting.
This is what folks do to break through those times when walls form blocking progress.
I lost over 60 lbs this way, and I eat over 3000 calories daily while most others are starving themselves on their rabbit diets.
No thanks to that!
What the OP seems to be looking is feedback from people who can provide insight or links into how something works. There's no problem with a lot of folks posting what they believe is true but my critical thinking skills require evidence, not observations.0 -
Tons but first you must get to the point where you reach a plateau in your workout and diet.
When this happens, shake things up. It works.
Change what you do for cardio and resistance. And once a week allow yourself a free day to account for your body's tendency to down-regulate the effects of dieting.
This is what folks do to break through those times when walls form blocking progress.
I lost over 60 lbs this way, and I eat over 3000 calories daily while most others are starving themselves on their rabbit diets.
No thanks to that!
What the OP seems to be looking is feedback from people who can provide insight or links into how something works. There's no problem with a lot of folks posting what they believe is true but my critical thinking skills require evidence, not observations.
Love it!!!!0
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