Heart Rate vs. Talk Test vs. Perceived Exertion

jtintx

These are just my one-sided observations so please don't be too unkind. What do you use to judge your exertion level during exercise? Let me start by saying that from my observations it seems to me that a LOT of people don't exercise hard enough. For example: I took a "boot camp" style fitness class awhile back and there were several people in the class who would walk while others ran and just generally didn't seem to be working that hard. They had no problem carrying on conversations while working out. But at the end of the class they would talk about what a killer the class was. So I'm not too sure that perceived exertion is really all that accurate of a way to judge exertion. The talk test is another one that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I think many people think they are supposed to be able to carry on a conversation and if not they are working out too hard. It is my understanding that you should be able to carry on a halting conversation....only able to speak 3 or 4 words at a time. I think heart rate is the most accurate method but again I think many people don't work hard enough because they use a formula that is only accurate for a small percentage of the population. "Maximum heart rate (MHR) can be predicted using a formula but the variation in actual MHR of 95% of individuals of a given age will lie within a range of ±20 beats/minute [Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 2007; 39(5):822-829]." Using a HR monitor I've found that my actual Max HR is 20 beats faster than the 220-age=MHR formula. If I used the "formula" I should be working between 112-138 beats per minute (65%-80% of Max). Using my real Max HR I should be between 125-154. Seems to me this would be a huge difference in the number of calories I burn in the course of a week, month or year. What are your thoughts on this?
Edited to correct spelling.

jtintx

These are just my one-sided observations so please don't be too unkind. What do you use to judge your exertion level during exercise? Let me start by saying that from my observations it seems to me that a LOT of people don't exercise hard enough. For example: I took a "boot camp" style fitness class awhile back and there were several people in the class who would walk while others ran and just generally didn't seem to be working that hard. They had no problem carrying on conversations while working out. But at the end of the class they would talk about what a killer the class was. So I'm not too sure that perceived exertion is really all that accurate of a way to judge exertion. The talk test is another one that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I think many people think they are supposed to be able to carry on a conversation and if not they are working out too hard. It is my understanding that you should be able to carry on a halting conversation....only able to speak 3 or 4 words at a time. I think heart rate is the most accurate method but again I think many people don't work hard enough because they use a formula that is only accurate for a small percentage of the population. "Maximum heart rate (MHR) can be predicted using a formula but the variation in actual MHR of 95% of individuals of a given age will lie within a range of ±20 beats/minute [Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 2007; 39(5):822-829]." Using a HR monitor I've found that my actual Max HR is 20 beats faster than the 220-age=MHR formula. If I used the "formula" I should be working between 112-138 beats per minute (65%-80% of Max). Using my real Max HR I should be between 125-154. Seems to me this would be a huge difference in the number of calories I burn in the course of a week, month or year. What are your thoughts on this?
Edited to correct spelling.

aprilvet

I see your point!! When I did a lot of spin classes, I'd notice people who never broke a sweat! Come on!!! For me, if I can talk, I'm not pushing it. I like to work out in the place where I can't talk but don't feel out of control-- that "I can't breathe" place. For me, this is about 90% of my CALCULATED max HR. I think the calculations should be considered estimates. I'm a fan of listening to your body, and I've come to learn- much thanks to the fitness gurus here:happy: - that if you really want to change your body and improve your fitness, you have to get a bit UNCOMFORTABLE!

My $.02.

adopt4

I judge mine by the heart rate on the machines I'm using. I don't have the money to fork out for a good HRM right now. And what I'm doing is working so far... but it will stop working and i will have to increase my exertion level because my body will become accustomed to what I'm doing. But this is one of the reasons I joined a gym to do this, because there's help and I can get ideas and it will monitor my heart rate for me on a lot of the machines, even if they aren't perfect, you can feel when your heart is really going.

I think it depends on what you're doing if you can talk or not. I can now walk fast on the treadmill, have my heart rate up high enough to burn calories, and talk. In the beginning I had to walk slow and couldn't talk... about 6 weeks ago. Soon the treadmill wont' have any value for me as my endurance and stamina increase, since I can't start running on it (bad knee). I can have my heart rate at roughly the same on the elliptical and I can't really talk, it's working more of my body. So I think it depends.

I think the final decision of what's right is - is it working? Are you losing weight/toning/increasing your stamina??? If you're not, then you're not working hard enough (or not eating right). But if you are, then for now you are working hard enough even if someone else perceives you as not working hard enough. Make sense? I had a trainer tell me there was no way I was going to be successful without him with the plan I had. Well guess what, I have been, I haven't been killing myself but every week I increase my workout in some way, making sure my heart rate is high enough for long enough... There will come a time when the things I"m doing aren't working and I'll need a kick butt cardio class, but for now... 15 pounds and 6 weeks later... it's working.

chandhole

I concur with the Talk Test as described - halting conversation and you are probably working hard enough. I usually experience this and the HRM backs it up. At 70-80% of max I find it difficult to carry on a conversation. Even at 50% it starts to get challenging.

I use a Mio Ultimate HRM and find it accurately captures my HR (it has to be programmed correctly)and definitely encourages me to work harder as it tells me which zone I'm training in and how long I've been in those zones.

I have also observed people not working hard enough and then commenting on how they are getting nowhere with their weight loss. Usually diet is bad as well. Diet takes just as much hard work, especially when working on eating less calories and ingesting better foods - changing the lifestyle.

Just my 3 cents.

firewalking

I used the calories burned by the number on my treadmill, then subtracted 150 from that for my exercise entries...I know that they are not accurate - but I really give it hell when i'm on the treadmill. I've just started using my HR monitor, which I believe to be more accurate (as it really is my heart rate). Turns out, I've either been significantly underestimating my calories burned, or my HR monitor is off. You have turned my thinking around (thank you so much! :flowerforyou: ) . I now feel confident that I'm doing great things for myself.

I cannot utter more than 2 or 3 words while working out...that's good, right?

nickybr38

The talk test doesn't work for me. I've had my heart rate at 180 bpm and I was STILL chatting at the same level I'd chat at 130 bpm. The difference being if I keep my heart rate at 180 too long I get very, very, very sick for many hours after but if I keep my heart rate between 150-160 I'm okay after. So yeah, the talk test is not a good method for me.

jtintx

I see your point!! When I did a lot of spin classes, I'd notice people who never broke a sweat! Come on!!! For me, if I can talk, I'm not pushing it. I like to work out in the place where I can't talk but don't feel out of control-- that "I can't breathe" place. For me, this is about 90% of my CALCULATED max HR. I think the calculations should be considered estimates. I'm a fan of listening to your body, and I've come to learn- much thanks to the fitness gurus here:happy: - that if you really want to change your body and improve your fitness, you have to get a bit UNCOMFORTABLE!

My $.02.

YES!!! Uncomfortable! I totally agree.

I listen to Lance Armstrong:Run longer on my iPod sometimes and one of my favorite things he says in the middle of the work out is, "It's not supposed to be easy." I just love that. It always makes me push just a little bit harder.

Firewalking - Yes, that's good....VERY good!!

lotusfromthemud

I actually talked to my trainer about this yesterday. . .

She said that for some people, the gym is social hour. (I always hate chatty cathys in any workout class. . .I'm there to sweat. . .) And, in all fairness, breaking a little bit of a sweat may feel like a "killer workout". . .to them.

I find that I can sort of talk up to about 80% of my max heart rate.

I don't sweat as much as I used to (I used to leave the gym soaked. . .) because I've sort of adapted and don't sweat in an air-conditioned environment that much. This is even if I get my heart rate up.

Here's the world-record holder for wasting your time and money at the gym: There was a woman at my old gym who would text all the way through spin class. I finally complained about her, because at this gym you had to call to reserve your spin bike at 7 a.m., and if you called at 7:05, there weren't any bikes left.

I work in short burst of up to 90% of my max, and when that happens, I could maybe get a few words out. But only a few. . .

athlete4christ

The best way to understand your Heart Rate Max is to acutally get on a treadmill and go as fast as you can, as long as you can, until you drop or can do no more. Equations are just an estimation and Heart Rate monitors are nothing but small computers with those equations.

The talk test, while it does measure a bit of exertion, is not as accurate. Whenever you reach a point where you can only say a few words, that is called your Ventilatory Breakpoint. It is just a measure of when your body is consuming way too much oxygen than it can take it.

The ultimate way of measuring exertion is by checking your heart rate constantly throughout the workout. You want to be within that certain range of your max (whatever your percentage is) and try to keep within that.

jtintx

The best way to understand your Heart Rate Max is to acutally get on a treadmill and go as fast as you can, as long as you can, until you drop or can do no more. Equations are just an estimation and Heart Rate monitors are nothing but small computers with those equations.

The talk test, while it does measure a bit of exertion, is not as accurate. Whenever you reach a point where you can only say a few words, that is called your Ventilatory Breakpoint. It is just a measure of when your body is consuming way too much oxygen than it can take it.

The ultimate way of measuring exertion is by checking your heart rate constantly throughout the workout. You want to be within that certain range of your max (whatever your percentage is) and try to keep within that.

Sorry, but I have to disagree....HR monitors measure your ACTUAL HR. Now if it estimates calories burned also then yes, that is an equation and an estimate.

chandhole

With the chest strap I get real time, ECG quality HR readings. I've told the watch my weight, age, height, resting HR, estimated Max HR and target calories to burn and then it times the duration of my workout. With all this data in the equation I believe it turns out to be pretty accurate however I accept that it's not perfect. Starting with the ECG quality HR measurement is a good place to start. The rest follows the moto, "garbage in garbage out", the calculations are only as good as the data I've put in about my body i.e. resting, MAX, weight, etc.

I've also compared the watch to the HRM on my Schwinn stationary bike and they are +/- 2 bpm to each other. So I trust what I'm reading and look at it as simply another tool to help me reach my goals, like this website! :drinker: :happy:

Another cool thing I do with this HRM is wear the chest strap all day, run the timer for 12 hours and let it calculate the calories I burn all day. Essentially helping me verify my Basel Metabolic Rate AND if this website is showing the right amount of cals for me to operate the basics and get through the day.

So far it's all pretty close!

miasuperstar

This is good info because when i first got my HRM i noticed i reached and STAYED within my max HR quite often. I thought maybe the max HR calculation was off but wasn't sure. From what some of you are saying is this is really only an estimate and if my calculated max is 188 it wouldn't weird if i could hold 190-200 for 5 10 min? I use my HRM and my "i'm going to pass out if i keep going like this" test

I would also add that there is a sense of pain tolerance as well as endurance which i think are more of a mental state that can not be easily measured but make people react differently to exercise..

jtintx

This is good info because when i first got my HRM i noticed i reached and STAYED within my max HR quite often. I thought maybe the max HR calculation was off but wasn't sure. From what some of you are saying is this is really only an estimate and if my calculated max is 188 it wouldn't weird if i could hold 190-200 for 5 10 min? I use my HRM and my "i'm going to pass out if i keep going like this" test

I would also add that there is a sense of pain tolerance as well as endurance which i think are more of a mental state that can not be easily measured but make people react differently to exercise..

Your MAX HR is a fixed number and is genetically determined. You cannot exercise to improve/change this number. It is the maximum HR you can achieve doing an activity. Ie. While swimming you cannot achieve as high of a MAX HR as you can while running or riding a bike. You cannot stay within a MAX HR. By definition that is the fastest your heart can beat. You would only be able to be at MAX for a VERY short period of time....a few seconds. I would suggest that your "calculated" max is incorrect. If you have used a HR monitor for quite some time and have pushed yourself as hard as possible then your MAX HR would be the highest number you have ever seen on the monitor. This is within reason of course. If you saw a MAX HR of 280 then obviously that is wrong and you had experienced some sort of electrical interference. How old are you? I would be extremely surprised if you could maintain a HR of 200 bpm for 5 to 10 minutes...but maybe you are one of those people with a hummingbird HR. :happy:

yoginimary

Another way for finding heart rate is to use the Karvonen formula. It uses your resting HR - try it here:
http://www.briancalkins.com/HeartRate.htm

I found this was much more accurate for me. With the other method, I can definitely talk at 80%.

MacMadame

According to the standard formula -- 220 minus my age -- I exceed my maximum heart rate every time I run! According to what they told me when I did my cardiac stress test last Fall, my maximum is probably 20 beats more than the formula says.

My pet peeve is people who walk on the treadmill for 30 min. and claim to have burned 600 or more calories. I *run* on the treadmill for 45 min. and burn around 300 - 400 calories according to various calculators.

Maybe those people really are burning more calories since they are heavier than I am, but it just seems suspicious. Some of them are basing their numbers on what their HRM reports, too, not just the inaccurate reports from the machines. So maybe I'm really burning 600 calories and don't know it since I don't have a HRM.

But my numbers equate to my weight loss -- I am losing the right average amount each week based on what calories I think I am taking in and expending, while the 600-700 people are constantly complaining that they aren't losing weight as fast as they "should" based on what they eat and how much they exercise.

So I think I'll stick with my numbers.

P.S. I don't know why it bugs me when people proclaim they are burning large amounts of calories doing a light workout. But it does! :laugh:

songbyrdsweet

If I am dripping sweat, don't feel like talking (or being talked to:devil: ), and am in moderate-severe discomfort due to lactic acid buildup or fatigue, I'm working hard enough. That's my RPE and talk test all rolled into one. :bigsmile:

I do agree most people don't work out hard enough because they've never pushed themselves to--or past--their mental/physical 'limit'. You have to reach total failure to understand how it feels to work at 65-85 (or more) %.

While running. I can generally get a short sentence out and I'm at about 80% of my theoretical MHR.

aprilvet

According to the standard formula -- 220 minus my age -- I exceed my maximum heart rate every time I run! According to what they told me when I did my cardiac stress test last Fall, my maximum is probably 20 beats more than the formula says.

My pet peeve is people who walk on the treadmill for 30 min. and claim to have burned 600 or more calories. I *run* on the treadmill for 45 min. and burn around 300 - 400 calories according to various calculators.

Maybe those people really are burning more calories since they are heavier than I am, but it just seems suspicious. Some of them are basing their numbers on what their HRM reports, too, not just the inaccurate reports from the machines. So maybe I'm really burning 600 calories and don't know it since I don't have a HRM.

But my numbers equate to my weight loss -- I am losing the right average amount each week based on what calories I think I am taking in and expending, while the 600-700 people are constantly complaining that they aren't losing weight as fast as they "should" based on what they eat and how much they exercise.

So I think I'll stick with my numbers.

P.S. I don't know why it bugs me when people proclaim they are burning large amounts of calories doing a light workout. But it does! :laugh:

MacMadame- If you're moderately fit, you may not burn the same number of calories as a larger, unfit person! It takes you more to push your limit!:grumble: But I agreed with you completely about people claiming huge calorie burns when they barely break a sweat!!:noway: