How do you put your body in ketosis mode

LeanLioness

The husband of a co-worker does Atkins all the time. He is probably 75 lbs overwieght. He goes on Atkins and loses a ton of weight, goes off it, puts on that ton plus a few...repeat...repeat...repeat. You get the picture. Just my opinion, but eating clean and exercising is the only way to go. I can't imagine putting loads of fat into my gut daily. It just doesn't seem natural. I feel great and am proud of the fact that I am nearly 55 years old and healthier than most people in their 20s. I take this seriously because I feel that my good health is a gift, and I do not want to mess it up.

He is not doing it properly and he is treating it as a DIET, not a lifestyle change..........so he will continue to yo-yo which is not healthy at all. Until he commits to eating clean for the remainder of his life, he will never have prolonged success at Atkins.

I failed once at Atkins, this time I am changing the eating to purely clean and not looking back.

songbyrdsweet

So ok,

After reading SB's analyses on ketosis and a ketogenic diet I said "ok sounds reasonable" and wanted to know more cuz I'm a dork like that. Always looking to get the edge, you know?

Anyway, so I'm not going to do it, mostly because for baseball, basically 90% of the activity you perform is in the form of explosion. I.E. swinging a bat is explosive movement, pitching is explosive movement, Chasing a ball is explosive movement, stealing a base or running from home to second is explosive. So I don't want to risk being weaker in that category.

I definitely agree. If you were an endurance athlete, it would take some adjustment, but there would be a chance of improvement. But the nature of your sport is anaerobic, so you need plenty of glucose present, and the glycogen stores just aren't present with ketosis.

BUT

I'm still insterested cuz I'm looking to get my training certificate and this is something that will probably come up quite often when I start training people. Here are my questions.

1) Is this kind of diet any BETTER, then a balanced diet consisting of a reasonable amount of macro nutrients. I.E. in the long term (2 or more years) what healthy benefits could one expect to see, assuming they are very strict with the diet and stay in ketosis for extended periods? If possible please give proof of this, either by research done or at least by scientific theory. First hand accounts are nice but since they can't be verified or even duplicated without serious time involved, they are just anecdotal(sorry, I'm a fact guy.)

In studies spanning longer than 6 months, I haven't heard/read any study that illustrated a ketogenic diet as being more efficacious in terms of fat loss. I'll have to look around for some this week (it's Spring Break, I have time to be a dork LOL). I haven't seen anything but firsthand accounts on blood trigs. I'd heard things like decreased blood sugar, improved cholesterol levels, and reduced gall stones. Free fatty acids and intramuscular triglyceride stores increase with a chronic high-fat diet. Fatty-acids aren't the same thing as triglycerides but I could see trigs increasing, and that's generally regarded as a bad thing. These increase simply because there's more fatty acids floating around needing to be stored or ready to be used.

An interesting aside-- as we become better trained, we become more efficient at using fatty acids during higher exercise intensities. This may be a reason that some people saw improvement on a keto diet and some people didnt--more trained athletes could use fat more effectively.

2) I have read that high protein/low or no carb diets have dangers such as, calcium leeching because of the decreased PH of the blood, greatly increased kidney activity which can stress the kidneys and cause partial or full breakdown of the kidneys later in life, and gallstones. Also because of the nature of the foods consumed on this diet, I have heard that it is very difficult (and expensive) to maintain a primarily unsaturated fat high protein diet. And while short term weight loss is likely, there are no studies that prove long term (more then one year) that this type of diet has any benefit over a "normal" balanced diet that provides a moderate caloric deficit (300 to 750 calories a day) along with regular exercise. I'd like to hear any info you have on these. Or any studied cited that prove otherwise.

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I don't have a way to give you the article because it's actually in my current nutrition book, but some studies have looked at levels of protein intake at 2g/lb of bodyweight, and kidney function was still normal. Issues arise when you have a combination of extreme dehydration and really high protein levels (or glucose levels) that cause the blood to become more viscous. In that case it doesn't filter properly.

Gallstones...here's my thinking on that. The gall bladder just stores a little bit of bile. It's release in the presence of fats. Why would stones form if the bile was consistently being flushed out? Wouldn't they be more apt to form if the salts were being stored for an extended period of time? I will have to read more about gall stone formation, but those are just my thoughts.

You're right on the studies.

The diet is expensive! No argument with that. :laugh:

Again, theories abound about this. But what I'm really looking for is a reason people WOULD or SHOULD do it. Other then the initial weight loss caused by the water loss and stored glycogen burn.
I guess it boils down to, are there any long term benefits, and are there any long term consequences?

Efficacy has been proven for epileptics. The brain uses less glucose when in ketosis, and for some reason there are fewer seizures.

It would be something of a double-edged sword for a diabetic. Keeping carbohydrates low means keeping glucose under better control, but they are at risk for ketoacidosis if they don't monitor their ketone levels. But I would venture to say that a diabetic who has consciously made this decision is going to be monitoring levels and taking care to keep everything under control.

LeanLioness

Hi, i can only speak from my own experiences................

I will bring in my bloodwork from November and then again in February.............

My numbers were all better and my A1C for my diabetes is very much under control, almost registering normal for someone that does not have diabetes.

My blood glucose was normal

My cholesterol is normal (LDL went down and HDL went up)

My triglycerides went from being in the 500's down to being in the 100's.........still a little high, but coming down to a more normal range.............

This is being on Atkins and gong by the book, exactly to a T..............even as far as Dr Atkins recommending eating as much organic and free range meats as you can possibly afford.

Organic veggies and fruits are a little more expensive, but taste so much better.......

Free range chicken and grass fed beef are unbelievably good!!!

This is clean eating at its finest.

I even realized that I like raw almonds!!

SHBoss1673

mmm, good stuff sweet

still not convinced of anything yet though. Although I guess I don't need to be convinced of anything, I mean I know what works for me, and I know generally what SHOULD work. At the least it sounds as if a ketonic diet wouldn't be a danger (which just means I have to re-read some of those studied).

Lean, i appreciate your response, my question is this: aren't you at stage 4 atkins? So by now you are out of ketosis right?

beagle595

Leanlioness.. sounds like you are doing great and following a Ketogenic Diet correctly. Why I not a fan of the Atkins diet (much milder form of the Ketogenic Diet). Is I couldn't survive without Pasta and bread. At my work about 200 of us did the Atkins Diet, a little milder plan derived from the Ketogenic Diet. We all got thru Phase 1- totally eliminated any carbs, including Veggies, and fruits and ate foods saturated in high fats, including tons of fatty red meat. All of us dropped a lot of weight fast. We all had a hard time incorporating the maintenance program. If the dieter doesn't incorporate healthy carbs back into their daily food plans they risk heart, liver, kidney damage etc.. Only 5% from my office stayed on maintanece.. But everyone else gained back all the weight. My cousin was a body builder for about 10 yrs and would go on and off between competitions so she could look chiseled. So my point I'm trying to make is too many people go on it for a quick fix, fast weight loss... But it's only healthy if you follow the maintenance. You are one of the few that are following the maintenance, having Doctor check ups etc... And if you have Celiac disease You're definitely eating smart. Be well :flowerforyou:

LeanLioness

mmm, good stuff sweet

still not convinced of anything yet though. Although I guess I don't need to be convinced of anything, I mean I know what works for me, and I know generally what SHOULD work. At the least it sounds as if a ketonic diet wouldn't be a danger (which just means I have to re-read some of those studied).

Lean, i appreciate your response, my question is this: aren't you at stage 4 atkins? So by now you are out of ketosis right?

No, I am no where near Phase 4..................

I am currently on Phase 2 of Atkins climbing the carb ladder. Right now I am on the nut rung of the ladder......

They add foods back in like climbing a ladder.................

The Carb Ladder

1. More salad and other vegetables on the acceptable foods list
2. Fresh Cheeses, as well as more aged cheese (cottage cheese, yogurt)
3. Seed and nuts
4. Berries and melons
5. Wine and other spirits low in carbs (I skipped this one for now)
6. Legumes (this is where I am currently)******
7. Fruits other than berries and melons
8. Starchy vegetables
9. Whole grains........


That is the carb ladder. You are supposed to add in 5 grams of carbs every week, like now I am up to 45 grams of carbs per day and each week you raise the carb level in increments of 5 until you stop loging weight..............Then you subtract 5 grams to start losing again. That is caalled your CCLL (Critical Carb level for Losing).............

For instance the last time I did Atkins (dieters mentality then) I was able to have aboout 80 grams of carbs per day and was still losing. I upped it to 85 the next week and no weight loss........So, I backed it back down to 80 grams of carbs per day and started losing again............

Granted as you are moving up the carb ladder, your weight loss is slowing up, but you are still in mild ketosis.................when you reach your CCLL, that is where you bring yourself out of ketosis, so your body will start maintaining................

This is straight from P. 171 in the Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution (2002 edition)

SHBoss1673

OK I understand all that Atkins does.

But What I guess I'm trying to get at is this: I eat healthy, my numbers are spectacular right now. My doctor was floored at the change in my systems from december 2007 to January 2009.

All of my cholesterol numbers are great, my HDL was high, my LDL was low, my triglycerides were low.

now I eat a very balanced diet. my Carbs are about 50% of my macro nutrients, my protein is about 30, and my fat is about 20%. I eat very very little saturated fat, I mostly eat very lean protein, and about 80 to 85% of my carbs are from fruits, nuts, starchy veggies, yogurt, and whole grains. Or in other words, I don't really eat enriched flours, or processed stuff very often. (ok I admit, about once a week or so I eat a bag of Doritos, but it's a single serving bag, and it's always in combination with some protein after a weight training when you need extra energy, so it's not that bad)

I'm just trying to figure out if someone does a diet similar to mine, (besided obvious medical issues like food intolerances or diabetes) how Atkins would be any better?
Don't take this the wrong way, I think it's great that you can do this diet and stick with it. But I'm just trying to figure out a reason someone would completely alter their body chemistry.
I don't know, maybe this is coming out wrong.

I'm just having a hard time figuring out why someone would want to do Atkins when a normal healthy diet works. I mean, there's always a few people who it doesn't work for, but in most cases, they aren't overweight because they have a food allergy, they're overweight because they eat too much and don't exercise.

I get the looking for a food allergy idea, and I'm fine with that, it's a legitamate reason. It's just that every study I've looked at has all said that over the long term, low carb, high protein diets don't provide any better results then a balanced, calorie deficit diet.

songbyrdsweet

OK I understand all that Atkins does.

But What I guess I'm trying to get at is this: I eat healthy, my numbers are spectacular right now. My doctor was floored at the change in my systems from december 2007 to January 2009.

All of my cholesterol numbers are great, my HDL was high, my LDL was low, my triglycerides were low.

now I eat a very balanced diet. my Carbs are about 50% of my macro nutrients, my protein is about 30, and my fat is about 20%. I eat very very little saturated fat, I mostly eat very lean protein, and about 80 to 85% of my carbs are from fruits, nuts, starchy veggies, yogurt, and whole grains. Or in other words, I don't really eat enriched flours, or processed stuff very often. (ok I admit, about once a week or so I eat a bag of Doritos, but it's a single serving bag, and it's always in combination with some protein after a weight training when you need extra energy, so it's not that bad)

I'm just trying to figure out if someone does a diet similar to mine, (besided obvious medical issues like food intolerances or diabetes) how Atkins would be any better?
Don't take this the wrong way, I think it's great that you can do this diet and stick with it. But I'm just trying to figure out a reason someone would completely alter their body chemistry.
I don't know, maybe this is coming out wrong.

I'm just having a hard time figuring out why someone would want to do Atkins when a normal healthy diet works. I mean, there's always a few people who it doesn't work for, but in most cases, they aren't overweight because they have a food allergy, they're overweight because they eat too much and don't exercise.

I get the looking for a food allergy idea, and I'm fine with that, it's a legitamate reason. It's just that every study I've looked at has all said that over the long term, low carb, high protein diets don't provide any better results then a balanced, calorie deficit diet.

That's just part of human physiology.
In general, we all work the same. But we all have different hormone levels, and hormones regulate metabolism. A given hormone will always do the same thing and that stays constant, but amounts in the body differ.

We can also look at it this way--Maybe it's not just about the diet when it comes to improving cholesterol and trigs. It's also about exercise. If you're not using the fatty acids, they'll just hang onto the lipoproteins (the L in HDL and LDL..well the second L in LDL....). So the lipoproteins just hang around in your blood.

There are too many variables to determine WHAT causes the changes. That's why we just have to test stuff out and see what works.

SHBoss1673

OK, I gotcha. Let me see if I'm following you correctly SB.

From what I surmise, your thinking is that, there's really no evidence that its dangerous, assuming it's done right (keeping the fats unsaturated, and basically getting your proteins from good, high nutritional sources). And in some cases it can actually work better then a nutritionally balanced program that most would think of as a "traditional" diet.
The only way to really know if it works better for you is to give it a shot, because everyone is different. Also, this isn't a diet, it's a lifestyle change meant to last forever; and because it changes your body chemistry, expect large changes when you start, and if you ever go off of it.

Let me list the benefits I saw from it.

1) ween people off the carbohydrate addiction much of the country is on.
2) possibly detect food allergies and sensitivities.
3) a good way to drop initial poundage (though not really by dropping fat, just stored water and glycogen), and continue a normal healthy weight loss program
4) A way to keep the body free of highly processed food sources.
5) By definition a way to lower bad cholesterol, triglycerides, and hypertension.

Possible drawbacks.
1) Expensive
2) Increased long term Kidney function (there aren't any research results on whether this is good or bad yet so I'll reserve judgment on this being a drawback or not)
3) Probability of dehydration is higher.
4) body is deprived of glycogen which can limit fast twitch muscle use (explosive exercises).
5) To keep results going you must stay on this program. When you stop, you see a reversing similar to and opposite of the initial stages of starting (I.E. weight gain, and glycogen storage)

I'm sure I missed a few on both sides, but I have a far clearer picture of ketonic diets now.

I'm really glad we could talk about this, cuz I came into it with a (undeserved) bias about ketonic diets.
I'm not going to say I will start one, but I would be far more open to someone using it in their daily life.
And I wouldn't neccessarilly try to change someone's eating habits if I did end up training them.

So thanks all, I'm going to process this and keep it around. Always good to have all the facts about something.
:happy:

songbyrdsweet

Banks, just as an aside, in every gym I've attended/worked in, the trainers aren't allowed to give out dietary plans like a dietician would. You can suggest changes, like replacing fast food with something or creating a deficit for fat loss, but most gyms won't let you give out nutritional plans because you're not licensed. My old trainer actually wasn't allowed to say ANYTHING except the basic, 'Eat healthy'. You might find a gym that's more lax about it, but in general it's not an area you'd really be working on with them.

I'm glad I could offer you some information. Another random thing-- The Inuits actually lived on a diet really similar to this one. There's not a ton of fruits/grains/veggies in Alaska in many areas. They lived largely off the meat and fat of seals (and eyeballs :sick: ).

weesel80

I say, what works for one person, may not work for another and so on, so my 2 cents, if you have found something that is working for you and you are maintaining your HEALTH, go with it. Me, I am just trying to eat a variety of balanced., healthy foods everyday and get my exercise in. If I do all this, I feel pretty good!

Cheers everyone!!:drinker:

SHBoss1673

Banks, just as an aside, in every gym I've attended/worked in, the trainers aren't allowed to give out dietary plans like a dietician would. You can suggest changes, like replacing fast food with something or creating a deficit for fat loss, but most gyms won't let you give out nutritional plans because you're not licensed. My old trainer actually wasn't allowed to say ANYTHING except the basic, 'Eat healthy'. You might find a gym that's more lax about it, but in general it's not an area you'd really be working on with them.

I'm glad I could offer you some information. Another random thing-- The Inuits actually lived on a diet really similar to this one. There's not a ton of fruits/grains/veggies in Alaska in many areas. They lived largely off the meat and fat of seals (and eyeballs :sick: ).

True enough. I don't think I'll be giving people nutrition programs. I might suggest calorie deficits, and laying off certain types of foods, but I think if someone really wants to get that serious about it I would be recommending a registered dietician.

Hey, I've heard that Inuits who live off seal and whale blubber have really bad breath though. :laugh:

Georg

I find that limiting my carbs as well as calories helps me with eliminating cravings. I'm not disciplined enough to have "just a little" of the breads & other starches. If I replace the carbs with veggies, I feel much better & find it easier to follow the eating plan without suffering much. I've tried lots of other diets through out my life, & with this plan, I don't crave sweets or junk. It's easier for me to fill up on salads if I can have dressing.
My doctor endorses Atkins as long as I take a vitamin supplement.
And it is pretty clean.
And it works for me.
Like any weight loss plan, if you just stop, you'll gain everything back anyway.

nitag

I usually don't chime in on these things..

I did the Lindora plan in 1996 and the diet puts you into Ketosis. High protein low carb. If I remember correctly its a 3 phrase plan.You do a 3 day protein fast day to get started and then a protein fast day 1 day a week. I lost 80 lbs in 6 months and kept it off for 5 yrs .. It was a hard hard plan to follow.. I went to the clinic 5 days a week and they gave me a vitamin shot and an appetite suppressor.. I peed on a stick everyday to make sure it turned purple so that I could continue the weight loss phase.. Drank a min of 80 ozs a water a day.. and to top all that off it cost me $4000 yes $4000.... And here I am again.. going to do it the right way so I can learn to eat without gaining it all back when I lose it all again....

songbyrdsweet

I usually don't chime in on these things..

I did the Lindora plan in 1996 and the diet puts you into Ketosis. High protein low carb. If I remember correctly its a 3 phrase plan.You do a 3 day protein fast day to get started and then a protein fast day 1 day a week. I lost 80 lbs in 6 months and kept it off for 5 yrs .. It was a hard hard plan to follow.. I went to the clinic 5 days a week and they gave me a vitamin shot and an appetite suppressor.. I peed on a stick everyday to make sure it turned purple so that I could continue the weight loss phase.. Drank a min of 80 ozs a water a day.. and to top all that off it cost me $4000 yes $4000.... And here I am again.. going to do it the right way so I can learn to eat without gaining it all back when I lose it all again....

While ketosis will happen regardless of whether you're eating high protein or high fat, it's actually better to eat high fat than it is to eat high protein. Fat provides a more direct and abundant source of energy and its metabolism doesn't produce the same by-products as protein metabolism (these by-products have to be converted to less harmful substances before they're urinated).

tipu11575

for all those naysayers.... can you please post links of stories where Ketosis diet hurt people? more hurt then being over weight and high blood pressure ??? i need examples if anyone has any . i am thinking of going through this diet plan maybe. i hear hundreds of success stories of people losing hundreds of pounds....... but barely seen any posts of people who have been "hurt" by this type of diet. and by the way, "diet not working" is not the same as being hurt by it... FYI>

before i start, i would love to get some people who have been hurt (liver, kidneys...etc.) by the low carb diet to post their experiences please. so far all i have are lots of success stories, and a bunch of people saying that it is unhealthy and can hurt, but noone who has been "hurt" by the diet posting anything.

thanks.

Wetcoaster

Bumping a 4 year old thread on your 1st post = cool.