Why I'm not for cardio and resistance concurrently

SHBoss1673

So, a lot of people on here like to condense their workouts into a long session consisting both of cardiovascular workouts and also resistance (weight training usually) work. I've been against it for a while, for a multitude of reasons. My main reason is because they compete for resources in the body, thus neither allowing for full results. I've always been a champion of this idea, but while I know the chemistry behind the hormonal response, convincing others with less metabolic knowledge was a tad difficult.

Well, here you go folks, I finally found a research study that backs up my concepts, it's relatively recent (from 2005) and statistically relevant to my beliefs that you should never do hard cardio and weight training in the same session, and if at all possible, not in the same day either. Anyway, here's the research to back my results up.
here's a link to the research:
http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n1/10/v4n1-10pdf.pdf

Title:
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CIRCULATING CORTISOL AND TESTOSTERONE: INFLUENCE OF PHYSICAL EXERCISE
Kaye K. Brownlee, Alex W. Moore and Anthony C. Hackney
originally published in : Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2005) 4, 76-83

I'll make special note of the first part of the conclusion by the researchers here:

"In conclusion, there are statistically significant relationships between cortisol and testosterone in humans in the recovery from physical exercise. Previous results demonstrate pharmacological levels of cortisol have a highly significant negative effect on circulating testosterone concentrations (Bambino and Hsueh, 1981; Cumming et al.,1983). Exercise appears to allow for the development of a similar negative relationship between cortisol and total testosterone (although not an extremely robust
association)."

essentially what this paper says is that in the post exercise recovery phase (up to about an hour after the exercise), cortisol essentially counteracts the effects of testosterone in the body, which means drastically reduced muscle building and recovery function. If you do cardio, this is not a problem as there's no statistical increase in muscle mass anyway, thus no need for elevated testosterone levels, but after a heavy resistance session where the goal is hypertrophy or otherwise increasing muscle mass, the first hour post exercise is the time when testosterone levels would be the highest, thereby generating the most muscle recovery and growth. In other words, if you do both, you're reducing the results of both.

Besides my other contentions with regards to mixed exercise types (those being, competition for energy in the form of glycogen, reduced actin-myocin bridge reaction because of increased need and depletion of calcium in the muscle site, and increased need for oxygen at the non-rebuilding muscles when in cardiovascular sub-maximal conditions), this additional research really presses home the point that you should separate your workouts, giving at LEAST an 8 hour separation to allow for hormone levels to recover and glycogen levels to be replenished before attempting an alternate exercise routine.

If all of this information is way over your head, here's the layman's synopsis:
Doing both weight training and cardio in the same session makes your body battle for resources, your weight training muscles want the resources to repair the muscles you worked out, and the cardio muscles need other hormones and resouces that fight against those weight training hormones and resources, add that to the fact that cardio depletes the energy that you need to fuel the rebuilding process, and you have reduced results from both, meaning that the results you THINK you're getting aren't going to be there.

just thought I'd throw this out there guys,

feel free to PM (<-- means personal message) me if you have any specific questions on this topic.

-Banks

SIDE NOTES:
-This topic isn't referring to warm up and cool down before weight training, I'm in full agreement with a 5 to 10 minute warm up and cool down
-This only refers to heavy weight training, I.E. hypertrophy or failure training for mass building, not high rep, low weight workouts (I.E. 15 to 30 reps or more per set)

zafferFL

I agree, but studies aside, it makes sense to me that if you are working hard enough at one, you should not have any energy for the other.

I keep seeing diaries where someone will do 45 minutes of strength followed by an hour of cardio. Neither is being done effectively. 45 mins of strength training should leave someone wanting to take a nap, not take a zumba class.

dad106

I agree with both of you.. When I get done with my strength training program, the last thing I want to do is go hop on a treadmill for 20 minutes like it suggests...

What I do want to do is sit down, drink a protein shake and recover!

Smuterella

What about strength training then cardio a few hours later?

JennLifts

What about strength training then cardio a few hours later?

He said AT LEAST an 8 hr gap, but preferably a different day.

tabinmaine

depends on the strength routine, if it's a few exercises at max weight you can do for 4 sets of 5, and then you do cardio , you should be able to do both.....

If it's a full body workout or 2 body parts with 12 exercises with isolation, then no, you will probably or should be exhausted..

No need for those though.... squat, bench, row and deadlift, that just about covers it !!

savvystephy

Thanks, Banks! Great info! :-)

zafferFL

depends on the strength routine, if it's a few exercises at max weight you can do for 4 sets of 5, and then you do cardio , you should be able to do both.....

If it's a full body workout or 2 body parts with 12 exercises with isolation, then no, you will probably or should be exhausted..

No need for those though.... squat, bench, row and deadlift, that just about covers it !!

You're not going heavy enough if you can do cardio, period.

carrie_eggo

45 mins of strength training should leave someone wanting to take a nap, not take a zumba class.

I knew I was doing something right.....

Thanks for this post!

tabinmaine

depends on the strength routine, if it's a few exercises at max weight you can do for 4 sets of 5, and then you do cardio , you should be able to do both.....

If it's a full body workout or 2 body parts with 12 exercises with isolation, then no, you will probably or should be exhausted..

No need for those though.... squat, bench, row and deadlift, that just about covers it !!

You're not going heavy enough if you can do cardio, period.

well that's funny because I can barely get 4 reps or squeeze out a 5th rep and keep good form, don't think I can do any heavier than that. lol should I add 50lbs and do 2reps ?

you can ALWAYS still do cardio, it's mind over matter, its will, it's kicking my own *kitten*.....

Yanicka1

that is exactly what i was doing. Intuitively, it was making sens to me.

Smuterella

What about strength training then cardio a few hours later?

He said AT LEAST an 8 hr gap, but preferably a different day.

Sorry, missed that. I shouldn't post BC (before caffeine)

IronmanPanda

What about that time I swam 1.2 miles then biked 56 and then finished it off with a 1/2 marathon? Oh wait... that's just me being a bad *kitten*.

tross0924

I wanted to ask what you thought about the part of the study that indicated a positive relationship between the exercise induced cortisol levels and the amount of free testosterone.

Since the fT seems to be more relevant to the production of new muscle fibers, wouldn't this in fact be a good thing? They were unable to conclude why the cortisol levels effected TT and fT in this way, but if the cortisol limits the binding ability of the SHBG allowing more testosterone to be utilized by the muscles despite having a lower total, how is that bad?

eta - * honestly I really don't know enough about blood serum and how it relates to muscle production, so I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, I actually would like to be educated if you have a minute.

DL121004

-This only refers to heavy weight training, I.E. hypertrophy or failure training for mass building, not high rep, low weight workouts (I.E. 15 to 30 reps or more per set)

Wish I had read this first.

SHBoss1673

depends on the strength routine, if it's a few exercises at max weight you can do for 4 sets of 5, and then you do cardio , you should be able to do both.....

If it's a full body workout or 2 body parts with 12 exercises with isolation, then no, you will probably or should be exhausted..

No need for those though.... squat, bench, row and deadlift, that just about covers it !!

no, in fact this is the exact worst time to do both. Any time you're going to failure you're creating microtears that require repair. Repair requires not only testosterone, HGH, and IGF-2, but also an increased level of energy for extended periods (8 to 24 hours, longer for the really large muscle groups in the legs), doing weight training first, means you should be done for the day. If you wanted to do both with an 8 or more hour gap, I would strongly advise doing cardio first, then weight training, cardio has no repair time, thus when your energy is replenished (usually within an hour) and your hormones are recovered (usually within 2 to 4 hours) then you should be fine to do resistance.

SHBoss1673

I wanted to ask what you thought about the part of the study that indicated a positive relationship between the exercise induced cortisol levels and the amount of free testosterone.

Since the fT seems to be more relevant to the production of new muscle fibers, wouldn't this in fact be a good thing? They were unable to conclude why the cortisol levels effected TT and fT in this way, but if the cortisol limits the binding ability of the SHBG allowing more testosterone to be utilized by the muscles despite having a lower total, how is that bad?

eta - * honestly I really don't know enough about blood serum and how it relates to muscle production, so I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, I actually would like to be educated if you have a minute.

you bring up a good point. And it's one that we should be absolutely clear on. Yes, the exercise induces both cortisol and testosterone increases, BUT, the problem there is that cortisol chemically similar to testosterone, and even though you're producing more testosterone, the cortisol levels are also going up, and since they are similar, cell receptors will accept both hormones in the same receptors, thus while total levels go up, cell reception of testosterone goes way down. It's similar to what happens during insulin resistance (but for different reasons) and type-2 diabetes, cells stop accepting the hormone, thus no matter how much your body produces, it is being flushed out and wasted.

tross0924

I wanted to ask what you thought about the part of the study that indicated a positive relationship between the exercise induced cortisol levels and the amount of free testosterone.

Since the fT seems to be more relevant to the production of new muscle fibers, wouldn't this in fact be a good thing? They were unable to conclude why the cortisol levels effected TT and fT in this way, but if the cortisol limits the binding ability of the SHBG allowing more testosterone to be utilized by the muscles despite having a lower total, how is that bad?

eta - * honestly I really don't know enough about blood serum and how it relates to muscle production, so I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, I actually would like to be educated if you have a minute.

you bring up a good point. And it's one that we should be absolutely clear on. Yes, the exercise induces both cortisol and testosterone increases, BUT, the problem there is that cortisol chemically similar to testosterone, and even though you're producing more testosterone, the cortisol levels are also going up, and since they are similar, cell receptors will accept both hormones in the same receptors, thus while total levels go up, cell reception of testosterone goes way down. It's similar to what happens during insulin resistance (but for different reasons) and type-2 diabetes, cells stop accepting the hormone, thus no matter how much your body produces, it is being flushed out and wasted.

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

SHBoss1673

I wanted to ask what you thought about the part of the study that indicated a positive relationship between the exercise induced cortisol levels and the amount of free testosterone.

Since the fT seems to be more relevant to the production of new muscle fibers, wouldn't this in fact be a good thing? They were unable to conclude why the cortisol levels effected TT and fT in this way, but if the cortisol limits the binding ability of the SHBG allowing more testosterone to be utilized by the muscles despite having a lower total, how is that bad?

eta - * honestly I really don't know enough about blood serum and how it relates to muscle production, so I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, I actually would like to be educated if you have a minute.

you bring up a good point. And it's one that we should be absolutely clear on. Yes, the exercise induces both cortisol and testosterone increases, BUT, the problem there is that cortisol chemically similar to testosterone, and even though you're producing more testosterone, the cortisol levels are also going up, and since they are similar, cell receptors will accept both hormones in the same receptors, thus while total levels go up, cell reception of testosterone goes way down. It's similar to what happens during insulin resistance (but for different reasons) and type-2 diabetes, cells stop accepting the hormone, thus no matter how much your body produces, it is being flushed out and wasted.

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

my pleasure, never feel bad about a good question. It takes a real lot to bother me anyway, you'd have to start being overtly offensive to me to bother me. I love a good debate, and have no qualms about being wrong, and will wholeheartedly admit it when I am.

Dave198lbs

is this advice more geared to builders looking to gain mass?

does the very obese person using resistance training to simply try and preserve muscle while losing weight need to apply this theory?

HauteP1nk

Interesting article.

Personally though I think it all just depends on your goals, your schedule and your preferences. Each person has to experiment with workouts/types/times and see what works best for them...

I don't think the two necessarily need to be seperated...

Cardio consists of any exercise that gets your heart rate up... Since I think jumping on a treadmill or elliptical can be mind-numbing and boring what I do is incorporate a lot of weighted cardio & calisthenics into my circuit and interval training. This way you are getting your heart rate up AND builing both strength and muscle endurance. This works for me, but not everyone....

StrongGwen

I wanted to ask what you thought about the part of the study that indicated a positive relationship between the exercise induced cortisol levels and the amount of free testosterone.

Since the fT seems to be more relevant to the production of new muscle fibers, wouldn't this in fact be a good thing? They were unable to conclude why the cortisol levels effected TT and fT in this way, but if the cortisol limits the binding ability of the SHBG allowing more testosterone to be utilized by the muscles despite having a lower total, how is that bad?

eta - * honestly I really don't know enough about blood serum and how it relates to muscle production, so I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, I actually would like to be educated if you have a minute.

you bring up a good point. And it's one that we should be absolutely clear on. Yes, the exercise induces both cortisol and testosterone increases, BUT, the problem there is that cortisol chemically similar to testosterone, and even though you're producing more testosterone, the cortisol levels are also going up, and since they are similar, cell receptors will accept both hormones in the same receptors, thus while total levels go up, cell reception of testosterone goes way down. It's similar to what happens during insulin resistance (but for different reasons) and type-2 diabetes, cells stop accepting the hormone, thus no matter how much your body produces, it is being flushed out and wasted.

Any Biochemists out there, here's a question: would this chemistry still be valid in women, both pre-menopausal and post-menopausal? Estrogen production exceeds testosterone in women, but the ratio changes somewhat after menopause. Any ideas on what happens with estrogen thrown into the mix?

Sidesteal

It's a very interesting study and I've heard of people advocating the separation of the two for this reason.

Not sure where I stand on it currently (from strictly an observational standpoint --- from a personal standpoint I don't do cardio at all so it doesn't effect me but I like these discussions). I think that the study seems to lend credibility to the idea but I also think context/dosage matter (dosage in this case would look at cardio intensity/duration since that would then effect cortisol).

If you like doing hour+ cardio sessions at a moderate intensity, I could understand wanting to separate them. If you're doing 20 minutes of low intensity, I don't know that I'd recommend a separate trip to the gym.

I also think the individual's goals should be taken into consideration. For example, if you're 300+ lbs, lift the weights and get on the elliptical and don't worry about it. If you're lean and trying to maximize your efforts, then maybe that's another situation entirely?

Just thoughts at this point, I do think it's an interesting study.

ADJ4665

Ok what About like I do Zumba Mix it has warm up weight s cardio and abs andline dancing and leg works and we also have a cool down with alot of stretching the muscles out after we work out for 45 min. we do all types of workingout in our class. all parts of the body plus weight are involved in parts .

grapenutSF

Thank you for posting this. Very informative.

The drag is that there's not a sufficient number of days in the week to do everything I want to do. I want to lift 3x to build muscle & beat you at arm wrestling. I want to run multiple times so I can be ready for my races/mudrun. I want to do my salsa fitness class & pole dancing class bc they're hella fun. Solve that, science!

Rae6503

When I do cardio, it's generally 30min low intensity after my weight lifting. This hasn't seem to prevent me from building muscle. Of course as a woman I don't have as much testoterone anyway.....

CyberEd312

-This only refers to heavy weight training, I.E. hypertrophy or failure training for mass building, not high rep, low weight workouts (I.E. 15 to 30 reps or more per set)

What is the correlation between obese individuals needing to drop 50.100.200lbs. and this concept... From the beginning my emphasis was always on cardio and that also went for my weight lifting ( 30 seconds or less between sets, compounding sets, Low weights for high reps.) My beliefs from the beginning was maintaining what muscle I have/had while losing the massive amount of weight (body fat) that I needed to lose. I figured heavy weights and low reps would come into play once I had achieved my weight loss goal and was eating above maintenance to build muscle. I have and do 3 days a week of weight training (high reps, low weights) it in itself is a cardio workout (normally lasting 60 minutes) and then I do low impact cardio usually treadmill or seated elliptical at 50-60% of my Max HR for 60 minutes on those weightlifting days immediately after... This has worked well for me.... Just wondered what your thoughts are on this....

betternowthanlater

What about that time I swam 1.2 miles then biked 56 and then finished it off with a 1/2 marathon? Oh wait... that's just me being a bad *kitten*.

I love it. You do do it! Stay hydrated. :drinker:

JennieAL

Bump

haaaleyx

This does make a lot of sense and I would definitely do it. But if I did it this way I would have to go to the gym everyday instead of every other day, or two days in a row and skip a day like i'm doing now. And going to the gym everyday would use a lot more gas, which I don't have the money for. If I could walk to the gym, then I would definitely try this out.

Sidesteal

Certainly some flaws in this study but here is a relevant pubmed study examining an interference effect between resistance training and endurance training:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22002517

For those who are part of Alan Aragon's research review, this was covered in detail as a guest review by James Krieger in the November 2011 AARR.