Help with the science behind weight gain whilst in calorie d

jpadie

I am looking for some science as to what can cause rapid weight gain, and if the answer is water retention, some science on what causes water retention.

i.e. I am not looking for simple answers like 'hypothrytoidism can cause water retention', but much more in the sense of what, at the cellular level, causes water to be retained (if water retention is the scientific diagnosis).

I fully appreciate that this may be the wrong site to which to ask the question, but I am a long time user of MFP so thought I'd give it a go.

Some background facts.

I am 41 years old and a male. I am 5'11" tall. I have a sedentary profession. I live in France.

For the last ten years I have weighed over 100KG despite eating like a bird. I have also had a killer cough. By mistake I forgot my blood pressure meds (Co-Aprovel) one week whilst travelling and, lo and behold, a week later my cough had gone. I can't tell you how many investigations (under anaesthetic) I have had to diagnose the cough (which was causing me to black out at times each day).

I stayed off blood pressure meds for six weeks. At the end of this period I weighed 93kg, No change to diet and zero exercise in the period.

I then went back on meds but a different variety (Lercanidipine, a calcium channel blocker) which seems to suit me ok. No change - all good.

I decided to use this kick start to get fit. So started tracking calorie intake and doing some moderate exercise.

MFP estimates my BMR at 1835kCals/diem. I suspect that is a bit on the high side but no matter. MFP recommended a net calorie goal of 1770 cals.

This seemed ok and I followed this more or less. On 10th Feb I weighed 87.5kg. i work out maybe four times a week.

Then I went skiing for a week and burned 9000 kCals, kept my calorie consumption below 2100 pd. So across the week, in deficit against target by just under 7000.

When I came back from skiing I weighed 90kg. Which surprised me.

All weights are taken at the same time (about 15 mins after I get up). I cross check the scales across a second set every few weeks.
All calorie expenditure is counted using firstbeat analysis via a chest strap.

Since coming back from skiing, my calorie deficit (against target) averages about 500 per week. Against net calorie needs (2200kcals/diem), deficit is c. 3500.

I now weigh 91.5kg.

I am not doing any particular strength training beyond light weights. I concentrate on running, hill walking and squash for my calorie expenditure. Nothing in my exercise regime has changed in the last year beyond slightly increasing inclines on the treadmill and speeds.

My diet is a reasonably healthy mix of 50-60% carb, 25-30% fat, 20-25% protein. I always drink a lot of fluids and always have. 2-3 litres per day or so. The carbs are always 'good carbs' and I eat 95% organic only.

Nothing in my diet has changed at any time in the last year.

So something has changed to cause a weight gain, in the last three weeks, of four kilos. Despite being in significant calorie deficit against a calcul-estimated BMR.

Going back to my question: what I would like is your help on the science of what can happen in the body to cause this weight gain. If my BMR has dropped so that I am not in calorie deficit, what causes the BMR to slump (scientifically)? If all is normal and I am just retaining water, what chemically/scientifically causes water to be retained in this quantity (no puffy fingers, no other visible oedema, no increase in sodium (which I watch because of the moderately high BP)?

any insight is appreciated.

Justin

jpadie

ok. So I guess this was the wrong board to post on.
Could I ask you for suggestions for other boards that should be able to help?

thanks in advance.
Justin

jcmk87

Less carbs, more protein and fat......water retention is cause due to higher carb and sodium intake.

acmpenguin

Though this is not a direct answer to your question (I don't want to overstep my bounds and training), understanding the scientific basis of water retention might help you understand that possible aspect of weight gain a bit. On a cellular level, it occurs something like this:

1. Blood is pumped into the kidneys. All of the small solids and the liquid portion are squeezed out into a fluid called filtrate; the larger solids (think red blood cells) are retained in the blood vessels.

2. The filtrate then runs through a series of passages, around which the blood vessels are wrapped. Transporters along the lining of the passages recognize specific molecules in the filtrate (ie glucose) and reabsorb this into the blood vessels.

3. The blood has now reabsorbed a variety of molecules, specifically sodium (Na). It's salty and concentrated, but has very little fluid basis to it. The water in the filtrate begins to move to the area with the highest sodium concentration, aka the blood vessel. The rate of water reabsorption depends upon the sodium concentration. More sodium = more water reabsorbed. This is exactly why you watch your sodium intake to control your blood pressure - too much sodium, and your body will start trying to pull too much water back in. Too much water causes your blood volume to increase, which then increases your blood pressure.

4. Blood volume is now restored; filtrate is then processed into urine and released.

Consider, for instance, alcohol consumption. Intake of alcohol prevents your brain from releasing of a hormone called ADH, or anti-diuretic hormone. This is usually your body's signal to conserve as much water as possible; however, when alcohol is consumed, the signal never makes it to the kidneys. Instead of reabsorbing water, the kidneys allow nearly all water to pass through as filtrate; this is why one typically urinates more frequently when drinking. (Though not definite, it is also theorized that this water loss and subsequent dehydration is the basis for hangovers.)

This same hormone, ADH, can be altered/released/inhibited by a variety of causes, which can either cause water retention or frequent urination.

Your kidneys are highly sensitive, specialized organs, as is your brain. Working together, if they sense any minute disturbance in the concentration of various molecules/electrolytes/hormones, they then alter the rate of water reabsorption to compensate. This can be concentrations of specific molecules (such as lots of sodium), as well as factors like stress. Think of the fight-or-flight response - it's not terribly convenient to need to urinate while running from a potential threat! The body releases ADH to help reabsorb more water during times of crisis.

In summary, I can't tell you why you've gained weight... that's beyond my training. It may be that you're in fact not retaining any water at all - but hopefully this has helped explain a little more of the cellular basis behind how the body retains water and reasons why.

xraychick77

um...ask your doctor..

or do your own research...seriously

hailzp

um...ask your doctor..

or do your own research...seriously

There is nothing wrong with asking some f*cking advice. He may be doing his own research as well.

chrishgt4

um...ask your doctor..

or do your own research...seriously

Asking people questions forms part of research - if you don't have anything normal to say don't bother posting.

jpadie

@acmpenguin

that's a great post. huge thanks. it definitely sets me on an interesting path for more research.

I'm not (too) bothered about _my_ weight gain - it's annoying/surprising but not a big deal in the great scheme of things, I'm just fascinated at how bodies can absorb so much extra weight in such a little amount of time. Pure calorie intake seems unlikely(31500kCals extra over three weeks for me ! [assuming no fast growing tumor ...]) so water retention and its science seems like an excellent place to start the learning curve.

thanks again
Justin

m60kaf

only 2 thoughts I have.

1. your carb / fat / protein balance. If I go from low carb to normal carb I seem to put an unexpected amount of weight on

2. I never eat exercise cals. You NEVER burn off the amount of cals the exercise tables say you will

oh and a 3rd - are you calculating calories right . Portion control ; calories from drinks?

LabRat529

I am looking for some science as to what can cause rapid weight gain, and if the answer is water retention, some science on what causes water retention.

i.e. I am not looking for simple answers like 'hypothrytoidism can cause water retention', but much more in the sense of what, at the cellular level, causes water to be retained (if water retention is the scientific diagnosis).

First, the mandatory disclaimer : I'm a pharmacologist/neuroscientist/cell biologist, not a exercise physiologist. SOOOOO. I might be slightly off in my explanation, but I'm probably more right than the average joe.

Short term weight gain while in a calorie deficit is likely water retention. What causes water retention? There are several possible causes on a cellular level.

#1) You've eaten more than your normal amount of food and perhaps your food choices are higher in carbs than normal (doesn't sound like this actually applies in your case, but I'll give you the info anyway). You have extra glucose in your blood. Your liver and muscle convert the excess glucose into glycogen. To do this (biochemically), you take two glucose molecules and put them together with a condensation reaction, which releases water, and repeat the process until you've got a long, branching chain of glycogen plus a bunch of excess water. Your body gets rid of the excess water reasonably quickly, but it might take a few days.

#2) You've been exercising rather hard and you've created microscopic tears in your muscle tissue. This is normal- just part of exercising. The muscle tissue releases signaling molecules that induce mild inflammation. The molecules make your blood vessels more permeable and thus water moves from the blood into your muscles. If it's not in the blood, it can't be excreted by the kidneys. Thus, water weight gain.

#3) You've eaten a lot of salt. The kidneys excrete less water to compensate for the higher salinity in your blood. This will also get straightened out in a few days.

AND everything that acmpenguin said.

jpadie

thanks m60kaf

interesting point 1. is there any science on that? carbs definitely increased (maybe 5-10%) on the mountains for a few days but have been normal since then.

points 2 and 3 - probably i've not been totally accurate but i've been doing this nearly a year and have not changed (i) diet, (ii) exercise regime, beyond going longer faster and (iii) method of reporting, so i'd think any inaccuracies would have averaged out over the period and become evident earlier. i also always feed in a sedentary multiplier (1.2) to the mbr calculation, but in fact am much less sedentary than most lawyers I know!

this rapid weight increase is evident only in the last few weeks, the trend otherwise has had pits and troughs but never this extreme in the last few years. there were periods before when i put on 5kg at a time, but they always corresponded with an increase in the dosage of irbesartan (i started ten years ago and before I started I weighed 83kg or thereabouts).

thinking about it all again after acmpenguin's post, I suspect it may be because i was not taking iodine supps from skiing until last week but need to give that more thought and analysis before reaching a conclusion. i fear that my hpa axis was screwed with for 10 years by irbesartan and is still depressed/falsely hypothyroid (cortisol level @8am is at 6.0 but oddly tsh t3/t4 in normal ranges). iodine supps may help the thyroid function (certainly help energy levels) and thus kick up the metabolism a bit. and if i'm in a hypo phase it might explain water retention, although subjectively I'm also looking less defined and chunkier than i was a month ago (despite more exercise and toning work).

all very fascinating! I'll weigh in at the weekend and see where I'm at. I'm betting on 91-92 kg. still 4-5kg up on a month ago.