Protein Supp. Before AND After a Workout?

perfect_storm

Do you use protein before and after a workout? I have tried the pre-workout drinks like "Assault" but I really do not get any increased energy or strength from them, and they really taste bad. Wondering if having just a protein shake would help a bit.

tgzerozone

I have:

Before: 40 gram whey, 50 gram dextrose, 5 gram Creatine with 1 liter water
After: same as above
During: Same as above minus Creatine

Depends completely on what you want to achieve though, I am trying for a big bulk.

perfect_storm

:happy: Thanks!

tgzerozone

Please note that that is what I do, and for some people taking in 150 gram of dextrose in a span of 2 hours can be very unhealthy. It spikes insulin levels. Don't just go with what I said, maybe get more advice or just take in way less dextrose.

I also worked this out according to my weight, but it gives you an idea.,

perfect_storm

I will check into it, thanks anyway, it may be good for me, at least it is a start.

Acg67

Please note that that is what I do, and for some people taking in 150 gram of dextrose in a span of 2 hours can be very unhealthy. It spikes insulin levels. Don't just go with what I said, maybe get more advice or just take in way less dextrose.

I also worked this out according to my weight, but it gives you an idea.,

You do know that the dextrose is completely unnecessary, unless you were doing something like participating in mult glycogen depleting events in a single day, right?

tgzerozone

You do know that the dextrose is completely unnecessary, unless you were doing something like participating in mult glycogen depleting events in a single day, right?

Wouldn't say so. As you noted, it restores glycogen that is depleted during workout, spikes insulin which triggers the body into nutrient storing mode, which in turn after abusing your muscles should go straight where it is needed.

But, as noted on the forums, many people do not believe in the nutrient window after workout, so to each his own I guess.

Acg67

You do know that the dextrose is completely unnecessary, unless you were doing something like participating in mult glycogen depleting events in a single day, right?

Wouldn't say so. As you noted, it restores glycogen that is depleted during workout, spikes insulin which triggers the body into nutrient storing mode, which in turn after abusing your muscles should go straight where it is needed.

But, as noted on the forums, many people do not believe in the nutrient window after workout, so to each his own I guess.

Protein spikes insulin as well and further spiking it with dextrose offers no additional benefits for MPS


Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-induced protein accretion versus protein alone. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jul;43(7):1154-61

CONCLUSIONS:

Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS.


Disassociation between the effects of amino acids and insulin on signaling, ubiquitin ligases, and protein turnover in human muscle

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/295/3/E595.full

"However, it was surprising that adding insulin at higher than systemic postabsorptive concentrations had no further effects on MPS or LPS. Some workers have reported increases of MPS and LPS with close arterial insulin contraction without making additional amino acids available (4, 13). We cannot account for these differences except to raise the possibility that in our studies the stimulatory effects of amino acids stimulated protein synthesis to a maximal extent and that further addition of insulin had no additional effect"

And for the anabolic window

Burd NA et al. Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men. J Nutr. 2011 Apr 1;141(4):568-73. Epub 2011 Feb 2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

and here's Alan Aragon on it

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

perfect_storm

You do know that the dextrose is completely unnecessary, unless you were doing something like participating in mult glycogen depleting events in a single day, right?

Wouldn't say so. As you noted, it restores glycogen that is depleted during workout, spikes insulin which triggers the body into nutrient storing mode, which in turn after abusing your muscles should go straight where it is needed.

But, as noted on the forums, many people do not believe in the nutrient window after workout, so to each his own I guess.

Protein spikes insulin as well and further spiking it with dextrose offers no additional benefits for MPS


Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-induced protein accretion versus protein alone. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jul;43(7):1154-61

CONCLUSIONS:

Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS.


Disassociation between the effects of amino acids and insulin on signaling, ubiquitin ligases, and protein turnover in human muscle

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/295/3/E595.full

"However, it was surprising that adding insulin at higher than systemic postabsorptive concentrations had no further effects on MPS or LPS. Some workers have reported increases of MPS and LPS with close arterial insulin contraction without making additional amino acids available (4, 13). We cannot account for these differences except to raise the possibility that in our studies the stimulatory effects of amino acids stimulated protein synthesis to a maximal extent and that further addition of insulin had no additional effect"

And for the anabolic window

Burd NA et al. Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men. J Nutr. 2011 Apr 1;141(4):568-73. Epub 2011 Feb 2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

and here's Alan Aragon on it

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

Honestly this was great and I think I understood it, but what I am not seeing from it (which maybe in a technical way it was there)....
Do I need a prework out protein shake??? :ohwell:

tgzerozone

Yup, as I said, one subject (As millions of others) that everyone disagrees on. It seems to be working for me so I'm sticking with it.

Acg67

Honestly this was great and I think I understood it, but what I am not seeing from it (which maybe in a technical way it was there)....
Do I need a prework out protein shake??? :ohwell:

Not really, if you are opposed to training fasted, eating some protein and carbs about 2-2.5hrs before you workout wouldn't be that bad of an idea