Maximum Heart Rate

Azdak

Um, what? Who Where? Someone called me?

Oh, ok, I just read through the whole thing. Um AWTY, first, if you REAAAAAALLLYYY want to know your maximum heart rate, pop by the doctor, they should be able to put you on their machine and test you. the 220 - age thing is just a very rough estimate assuming you are average in just about every way. So it's a guideline, not a rule.

For example: my wife is 37 and wears an HRM, it tells her, for instance, during spinning that she's averaging 92% MHR (Max Heart Rate) for the hour class, which she obviously isn't or she would collapse dead . What it's telling her is that she is working at what WOULD be her max heart rate if she were an average athlete with utterly average body function. She isn't so it's wrong, but if you weren't knowledgeable about this stuff, that could be a scarey number to see.


As to the fat burning zone thing. Ugh, I hate that term. But anyway. It's a ramp up process, as we work at a higher and higher heart rate, the body requires more and more energy faster and faster. Unfortunately, stored fat cannot be delivered to muscles fast enough, nor can it be converted to glycogen fast enough to re-supply our muscles when they are at the anaerobic threshold (for most that means about 82 to 88% of Max Heart Rate ).

So as we ramp up exercise and the heart rate approaches the anaerobic threshold , the percentage of energy for those muscles coming from stored glycogen goes up and up, and when the muscles run out of glycogen (called technical failure), we are unable to work for about 30 seconds to 1 minute. You know what I mean, the point where you just can't lift that bench press bar up one more time, or when you just can't do that one more pull up, that's technical failure.

What does all this have to do with fat % burned? Well, at lower levels, the body doesn't need AS MUCH energy, so it deems itself capable of converting stored fat to energy fast enough, so it uses more fat. At higher levels, the body deems itself not able to replenish energy with fat stores, so it opens up the "flood gates" of glycogen, which means less fat used.

Why I think this is a flawed and outdated notion though, isn't because of the above paragraph, it's what happens after. When the energy is depleted, it needs to be recovered, somehow. Part of that will be from the food we have eaten, but part will come from stored fat as well, so while during the exercise, we burn a higher fat % at lower levels; at higher levels, where we approach anaerobic activity, the body needs hours post exercise to replenish it's stored glycogen levels, which means a raised metabolic rate at that time (heat and hormones are needed to break down fat to glucose).

The added benefit to higher intensity activity is increased health. When we work our body close to or to failure, the body compensates by adding muscle, and lung capacity (among other things), thus allowing us to work in that higher zone for longer periods, and burn more calories for longer periods.
The downfall of higher intensity is the possibility for injury or other health problems.

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

I have some minor quibbles with your terms and descriptions, but, for the purposes of this group, we are essentially saying the same thing.

jtintx

Really, I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire but I don't think you are saying the same thing at all.

Azdak, you seem to be saying that you aren't burning stored body fat unless doing extemely long endurance work, ie. swimming the EC. And Banks seems to be saying that yes, we do burn stored fat even during moderate exercise although at a lesser amount.

"So, yes, fats are utilized as a fuel substrate during exercise." Doesn't this contradict what you said?

Sorry if I appear stupid to you and should have known this 15 years ago...but I don't. But I am trying to gain knowledge on how this all works.

All I know is I lost a lot of body fat....so where did it go? And how?

ckroys

Um, what? Who Where? Someone called me?

Oh, ok, I just read through the whole thing. Um AWTY, first, if you REAAAAAALLLYYY want to know your maximum heart rate, pop by the doctor, they should be able to put you on their machine and test you. the 220 - age thing is just a very rough estimate assuming you are average in just about every way. So it's a guideline, not a rule.

For example: my wife is 37 and wears an HRM, it tells her, for instance, during spinning that she's averaging 92% MHR (Max Heart Rate) for the hour class, which she obviously isn't or she would collapse dead . What it's telling her is that she is working at what WOULD be her max heart rate if she were an average athlete with utterly average body function. She isn't so it's wrong, but if you weren't knowledgeable about this stuff, that could be a scarey number to see.


As to the fat burning zone thing. Ugh, I hate that term. But anyway. It's a ramp up process, as we work at a higher and higher heart rate, the body requires more and more energy faster and faster. Unfortunately, stored fat cannot be delivered to muscles fast enough, nor can it be converted to glycogen fast enough to re-supply our muscles when they are at the anaerobic threshold (for most that means about 82 to 88% of Max Heart Rate ).

So as we ramp up exercise and the heart rate approaches the anaerobic threshold , the percentage of energy for those muscles coming from stored glycogen goes up and up, and when the muscles run out of glycogen (called technical failure), we are unable to work for about 30 seconds to 1 minute. You know what I mean, the point where you just can't lift that bench press bar up one more time, or when you just can't do that one more pull up, that's technical failure.

What does all this have to do with fat % burned? Well, at lower levels, the body doesn't need AS MUCH energy, so it deems itself capable of converting stored fat to energy fast enough, so it uses more fat. At higher levels, the body deems itself not able to replenish energy with fat stores, so it opens up the "flood gates" of glycogen, which means less fat used.

Why I think this is a flawed and outdated notion though, isn't because of the above paragraph, it's what happens after. When the energy is depleted, it needs to be recovered, somehow. Part of that will be from the food we have eaten, but part will come from stored fat as well, so while during the exercise, we burn a higher fat % at lower levels; at higher levels, where we approach anaerobic activity, the body needs hours post exercise to replenish it's stored glycogen levels, which means a raised metabolic rate at that time (heat and hormones are needed to break down fat to glucose).

The added benefit to higher intensity activity is increased health. When we work our body close to or to failure, the body compensates by adding muscle, and lung capacity (among other things), thus allowing us to work in that higher zone for longer periods, and burn more calories for longer periods.
The downfall of higher intensity is the possibility for injury or other health problems.

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

Thank you!!! That makes so much more sense. My HRM tells me I'm at 90%+- when I'm on my elliptical, but I feel closer to 80% - and if I go at a lower pace, I feel like I might as well be sitting :grumble: . I'm glad to hear that working out at a higher rate is still going to burn fat (in the long run) because I can't stand to go that slow anymore. It was driving me crazy!!:bigsmile:

Azdak

Really, I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire but I don't think you are saying the same thing at all.

Azdak, you seem to be saying that you aren't burning stored body fat unless doing extemely long endurance work, ie. swimming the EC. And Banks seems to be saying that yes, we do burn stored fat even during moderate exercise although at a lesser amount.

"So, yes, fats are utilized as a fuel substrate during exercise." Doesn't this contradict what you said?

Sorry if I appear stupid to you and should have known this 15 years ago...but I don't. But I am trying to gain knowledge on how this all works.

All I know is I lost a lot of body fat....so where did it go? And how?

I think the difference is more semantics--and differing emphasis on what it actually means to "burn stored body fat". In the average 30-60 min cardio session, carried out by the average exerciser, the amount of actual "fat" consumed is going to be minimal--and 50% of that "minimal" amount is going to come from triglycerides already stored in the muscle cells. Now, you may consider that "stored body fat", but for the purpose of discussion, I am not.

So I should have been more precise with my terms. As Banks and I both agree, most of the actual "fat loss" takes place in the 23 hours you aren't exercising, and is greatly influenced by diet.

The process of metabolism is complex and affected my many different factors, which gets back to my original point which is that "fat burning" should not be the primary focus of your exercise training program. Increasing fitness and endurance, preventing injury, avoiding staleness, introducing variety, and following focused workouts will do a lot more for your health, fitness, AND weight loss.

pettmybunny

One thing I've found interesting, and I think I've told you this before Jeannie, is that your max heart rate doesn't change with age... Here's a link I found just doing a quick search on google... There's probably more medically informative links, but this one was quick and easy... lol

http://www.howtobefit.com/determine-maximum-heart-rate.htm

By the way, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday dear Jeannie, Happy Birthday to you!

SHBoss1673

Really, I'm not trying to pour fuel on the fire but I don't think you are saying the same thing at all.

Azdak, you seem to be saying that you aren't burning stored body fat unless doing extemely long endurance work, ie. swimming the EC. And Banks seems to be saying that yes, we do burn stored fat even during moderate exercise although at a lesser amount.

"So, yes, fats are utilized as a fuel substrate during exercise." Doesn't this contradict what you said?

Sorry if I appear stupid to you and should have known this 15 years ago...but I don't. But I am trying to gain knowledge on how this all works.

All I know is I lost a lot of body fat....so where did it go? And how?

I think the difference is more semantics--and differing emphasis on what it actually means to "burn stored body fat". In the average 30-60 min cardio session, carried out by the average exerciser, the amount of actual "fat" consumed is going to be minimal--and 50% of that "minimal" amount is going to come from triglycerides already stored in the muscle cells. Now, you may consider that "stored body fat", but for the purpose of discussion, I am not.

So I should have been more precise with my terms. As Banks and I both agree, most of the actual "fat loss" takes place in the 23 hours you aren't exercising, and is greatly influenced by diet.

The process of metabolism is complex and affected my many different factors, which gets back to my original point which is that "fat burning" should not be the primary focus of your exercise training program. Increasing fitness and endurance, preventing injury, avoiding staleness, introducing variety, and following focused workouts will do a lot more for your health, fitness, AND weight loss.

Now this, I can get behind! I completely agree. I'll even add that, as most experts say, the majority of your weight loss is going to come from a healthy, reduced calorie diet, NOT from exercise. Exercise will help make you healthier, and will also help your muscle to fat ratio, but exercise is kind of like the extra added bump, not the primary reason. With the obvious exception of people like marathoners or others who train for 4 to 8 hours a day at a relatively high levels (I.E. total depletion of glycogen).

arewethereyet

One thing I've found interesting, and I think I've told you this before Jeannie, is that your max heart rate doesn't change with age... Here's a link I found just doing a quick search on google... There's probably more medically informative links, but this one was quick and easy... lol

http://www.howtobefit.com/determine-maximum-heart-rate.htm

By the way, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday dear Jeannie, Happy Birthday to you!

I forgot about that!! Thanks for the reminder...........and the Happy Bday!! :flowerforyou:

arewethereyet

this turned out to be a great, informative thread. I am saving for future bumping!!

:flowerforyou:

pegm

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

Ugg... this is where I'm at now, having to increase my efforts to get results. But, hey, if it were easy... everyone would be svelte!

lyla29

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

Ugg... this is where I'm at now, having to increase my efforts to get results. But, hey, if it were easy... everyone would be svelte!

I have to do this also. I used to only do fast walking on an incline on the treadmill for 30 minutes, and now I have to do it for 40 minutes to burn the same amount of calories. I am trying to change my routine, and it seems to help, but I still have to work harder or longer to get the same results.

cmriverside

And I just put a link to this Great Discussion on the "Links" Thread in the sticky threads under the "General Weight Loss" Tab.

Thank you all for a terrific, respectful debate!

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/23912-links-in-mfp-you-want-to-read-again-and-again?page=9#posts-577697




:glasses:

arewethereyet

And I just put a link to this Great Discussion on the "Links" Thread in the sticky threads under the "General Weight Loss" Tab.

Thank you all for a terrific, respectful debate!

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/23912-links-in-mfp-you-want-to-read-again-and-again?page=9#posts-577697




:glasses:

Cheryl, that is SO cool!! Thanks! Best Bday present of all!!

I love when intelligent, kind minds debate and give out some good info!!

:smooched:

cmriverside

I YOU, Jeannie!

Happy Birthday!

I'm PMing you sumpin'. You'll like it!!

~Cheryl

arewethereyet

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

Ugg... this is where I'm at now, having to increase my efforts to get results. But, hey, if it were easy... everyone would be svelte!

I have to do this also. I used to only do fast walking on an incline on the treadmill for 30 minutes, and now I have to do it for 40 minutes to burn the same amount of calories. I am trying to change my routine, and it seems to help, but I still have to work harder or longer to get the same results.

here is what I have done.

I set up my Ipod with a 45 minute workout.
All songs are 3-4 minutes long so perfect timing for an interval.

+Start with slow warm up song.
+Then I have a faster paced
+Then a jogging pace
+next a slower pace, but I kick up the incline to 5 so I am useing different muscles ( and DONT hold on when on incline, you ruin the benefits of using your core muscles!!!)
+My next song is even slower, on a higher incline 7-8 and again DONT hold on
+ Next song is fast again, on flat land but almost, but not quite jogging
+ Slower song with some ooomph.....I like a good Salsa song. I move my hips a bit, and hold my abs in tight. I can feel them working
+ Last but not least a slow cool down song.

I have a GREAT workout with this and feel like I am making some headway in my workouts!!

(maybe too detailed......sorry!!)

arewethereyet

I YOU, Jeannie!

Happy Birthday!

I'm PMing you sumpin'. You'll like it!!

~Cheryl

HEY!!! I swam with a SHARK!! We went looking for dolphins, and found a nurse shark. he didnt care a thing about me!!

I told DH next yr is Bimini and dolphin experience for our 25th anniversary!!

cmriverside

I YOU, Jeannie!

Happy Birthday!

I'm PMing you sumpin'. You'll like it!!

~Cheryl

HEY!!! I swam with a SHARK!! We went looking for dolphins, and found a nurse shark. he didnt care a thing about me!!

I told DH next yr is Bimini and dolphin experience for our 25th anniversary!!

With your friend Cheryl.....don't go in April or May, though - too windy to snorkel. - - I PMed you with STUFF!! We can swim with Tiger Sharks in BIM. :glasses: :happy:

pegm

Side note, this is why people who have never worked out or are really obese and work out lightly still see massive body changes in the beginning. Because when you are at that level, almost ANY workout is anaerobic, and the body reacts the same way it would if you were in good shape and working out at a very intense level. Sadly it doesn't stay this way, as our muscles develop, we need to do harder and harder work to get them to the "next level".

Ugg... this is where I'm at now, having to increase my efforts to get results. But, hey, if it were easy... everyone would be svelte!

I have to do this also. I used to only do fast walking on an incline on the treadmill for 30 minutes, and now I have to do it for 40 minutes to burn the same amount of calories. I am trying to change my routine, and it seems to help, but I still have to work harder or longer to get the same results.

here is what I have done.

I set up my Ipod with a 45 minute workout.
All songs are 3-4 minutes long so perfect timing for an interval.

+Start with slow warm up song.
+Then I have a faster paced
+Then a jogging pace
+next a slower pace, but I kick up the incline to 5 so I am useing different muscles ( and DONT hold on when on incline, you ruin the benefits of using your core muscles!!!)
+My next song is even slower, on a higher incline 7-8 and again DONT hold on
+ Next song is fast again, on flat land but almost, but not quite jogging
+ Slower song with some ooomph.....I like a good Salsa song. I move my hips a bit, and hold my abs in tight. I can feel them working
+ Last but not least a slow cool down song.

I have a GREAT workout with this and feel like I am making some headway in my workouts!!

(maybe too detailed......sorry!!)

Thank you for the details! That helps me alot to see what others are doing and what works for them. I do much the same as you (never holding on to the bars I need to preset a couple of play lists to mix things up a bit and keep me from getting bored.

arewethereyet

I YOU, Jeannie!

Happy Birthday!

I'm PMing you sumpin'. You'll like it!!

~Cheryl

HEY!!! I swam with a SHARK!! We went looking for dolphins, and found a nurse shark. he didnt care a thing about me!!

I told DH next yr is Bimini and dolphin experience for our 25th anniversary!!

With your friend Cheryl.....don't go in April or May, though - too windy to snorkel. - - I PMed you with STUFF!! We can swim with Tiger Sharks in BIM. :glasses: :happy:

Thanks the Vid was amazing!! I will look into next yr in June. It looks like an experience of a lifetime!:flowerforyou:

petunia

bumping this to put it in my topics...

as usual Banks, you're my hero... :drinker:

Edited to say.. and AWTY, great thread!

arewethereyet

bump