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Lift_hard_eat_big · March 2012

Improve your reading comprehension skills. I said "similar" which means there is a difference. In my case, same exercises, but longer break in between sets, which prevents me from being utterly wiped out and still perform additional circuits after the warm up. I also teach a high intensity circuit training class so I'm in better shape than most.

bigd65 · March 2012

fpacudan I understood what you were saying didn't sound to complicated to me. I would say by looking you know what you are doing some people just don't take advise well

alexbelly · March 2012

bump

smplycomplicated · March 2012

I usually workout for about 2 hours a day, and i give everything i have..and I did this a lil while ago about an hour after i had done my lvl 3 of the shred, and the banish fat boost metabolism DVD along with my planks, weights and my crunches, and I was more winded after the 4 minutes than i was after 2 hours of working out. granted it could've had a lil to do with me still being a lil tired after my workouts, but still this is TOUGH. Make sure you try it, and give it everything you got before you doubt how hard it is. I agree i wouldn't replace my 2 hour workouts with it, but i will definitely be adding it to my routine.

Lift_hard_eat_big · March 2012

What do you do for 2 hours a day, giving it everything you have?
I'm in pretty good shape and If I go all out, there is no way I could go for 2 hours.

smplycomplicated · March 2012

I still have alot of weight to lose so i'm sticking to mostly Cardio/curcuit DVD's on round 2 of the shred lvl 3. And doing Banish fat boost metabolism which combined is about 75 to 80 mins. in the evenings i do Zumba for 30 and either elliptical or stepper for 30 mins. I change up the workouts and DVD's since i need to keep my cardio high..I really don't count the mins i spend with my weights or planks and crunches since they don't really raise my heart rate high enough to do much for burning calories. I do about an hour in the morning, and then an hour in the evening in hopes it will keep me burning more calories throughout the day/night.

funkycamper · March 2012

I think it's ignorant to comment on something that you apparently haven't studied. I have spent a fair amount of time reading as much as I can about the Tabata Protocol including the original research results because I find the concept fascinating.

Conditioned athletes at world-class levels are totally bushwhacked after doing a Tabata at the intensity it's designed for. People have been known to puke, or feel like it, from doing them at the intensity-level prescribed. One might be able to do more exercise after a recovery period which, of course, is going to vary a bit from individual-to-individual but not right afterwards. And there is no way that they can do further exercise at a level of intensity to really be worth the time. Sure, you might be able to do a decent walk. But you're not going to be able to lift heavy and meet the same weights/reps/sets as you would normally achieve. And you're not going to be able to go on an hour run.

This isn't my opinion. It's based on the studies.

funkycamper · March 2012

OK, I'll accept that similar doesn't mean Tabata but your statement didn't make that clear. HIIT and Tabata aren't the same thing. I do a lot of HIIT myself.

chrishgt4 · March 2012

I'd genuinely like to see these studies. Do you have links? Particularly interested in length of exercises and number of sets/reps.

Incidentally a friend of mine who I was chatting with about the Tabata protocol yesterday who trains in Karate agreed that his standard training included something very similar to this and that it only formed a small part of his training. With no rest period either - rest=running on the spot while your partner does his/her 10 seconds. This for 4 sets of each exercise consisting of situps, squat thrusts, Pressups and Burpees.

ArroganceInStep · March 2012

I've been doing martial arts for a while now, 5 years of Judo and 4 years of Isshin Ryu Karate. There is definitely a lot of good to be had from training after you're 'bushwacked'. I've done boxing drills using the Tabata format, and afterwards I could barely lift my arms. Then I went and did 2 hours of class. I've also lead the class through Tabata drills for conditioning and then have done other workouts. The concept that even when tired past the point of exhaustion you should be able to throw strong, clean, crisp fighting techniques is paramount at every dojo I've ever been to.

I agree that weight lifting immediately following a Tabata workout is not a good idea, as it's probably unsafe, but I see no problem with doing exercises where there isn't the same risk of injury afterwards.

I'm not disagreeing with you about performance, after a session it would definitely be diminished. However, the idea that training when tired is 'not worth their time' I strongly disagree with.

EDIT: Also consider wrestling workouts, it's not uncommon for athletes to puke during the workout and keep going.

funkycamper · March 2012

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

chrishgt4 · March 2012

You may be right - since I've never actually done, only read (and only since this thread) about Tabata, I can't say with total conviction, it just sounds very similar. Though Tabata does just sound like an extreme HIIT to me.

I'll have a read over those thank you!

aelarek · March 2012

Bump.

ArroganceInStep · March 2012

My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that 'Tabata training' was just a specific implementation of HIIT. Like most things, you get out of it what you put in, and while elite athletes may be able to maintain a higher level of intensity throughout the 4 minute time-frame, those who are not would still be doing 'Tabata'. I think it's a difference of semantics, if you have to sustain 170% or greater of your VO2max as in the first study, then you are definitely right that not many people can do Tabata.

I STILL maintain, however, that there is substantial benefit to be had from training when past the state of exhaustion. If you look at the vast majority of martial training, they build foundations on that philosophy. They may not all do Tabata, but I guarantee you a boxer or wrestler or muay thai fighter or MMA fighter will be pushed to that degree of exhaustion and keep going. I am not in the physical shape to maintain 170% V02max for a full Tabata session, but I routinely do conditioning until I can barely stand up and then spar or grapple. I think if I can defend myself when I'm EXHAUSTED, I'll be better equipped to defend myself in a live fight, for as long as I need to. If your contention is that most people are incapable of doing Tabata I accept that, as I accept the fact that doing 'true Tabata' from your definition immediately before a heavy lifting regimen would be dangerous, and lastly if you think that an athlete that completes a full Tabata session and then does something else would risk hypoglycemia I would accept that as a stance (though I'd probably want to see some kind of proof of such). Outside of those three things though, I cannot agree with the concept that after completing 'true Tabata' other exercise is made pointless because your body is exhausted.

funkycamper · March 2012

Yes, you could definitely say that Tabata is an extreme HIIT. Although, I'd say it's an extremely extreme HIIT. :laugh: Most of us really can't do it. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it once in awhile at the most intense level we can muster. When I do it, it's either because I just can't fit in a workout that day or because I want to test myself to see how close I can get to doing it. Like, can I last longer than previous tries? Can I do each intense session more intensely than I did before? I don't fool myself that I'm actually doing a full Tabata as designed because I know I'm not reaching those levels but I'm still definitely challenging myself and I think it's a good way to test my fitness progress.

funkycamper · March 2012

I don't really disagree with anything you've said. I think pushing yourself to and then through exhaustion while exercising is a great way to increase your fitness. And, of course, the more fit you are, the more often you can do that and recover to do it the next day. Some of us haven't yet achieved a level of fitness to do it consistently but it's a great goal.

As I said previously, I doubt a lifter could lift at their normal levels after doing something as intense as a Tabata (or as close to it as they can get). And there is a lot of evidence out there that this is just plain inconsistent with the goal of building/retaining muscle. That's why many people with a lot more expertise than I have state that weight training and cardio should be done on different days or, if you do cardio on weight training days, at least do it after the weight training and keep it more minimal.

However, if you're working to build both muscle and cardiovascular endurance, there's no reason to not do exactly what you're saying, do an intensive HIIT session and combine it with other prolonged cardio. In fact, go back and forth a bit between the two. Sometimes I do a HIIT session, then do some regular cardio for awhile, and then do another HIIT session to tap myself out. An example of this might be going to the track, doing a short warm-up walk/jog, then doing sprints for 10-15 minutes, alternating with walking to bring my heart rate down, then doing a short run (15-20 minutes), then doing grinders (running up the stairs in the stadium, then walking down) and repeating until I'm so wiped out I just can't climb one more stair, then do a cooling down walk for awhile until my heart rate settles down.

Note, for those who know me, I do have trouble with prolonged running for some reason so, when I say I go for a short 15-20 minute run, it's still more of a jog/walk at this point. I can do elliptical or biking for hours....well, maybe not hours but for a long time, definitely more than an hour....without fatigue, even if I do some HIIT during them but, for some reason, my running sucks. Working on it.

And, like I responded in the above-post to another poster, if you're interested, work on trying to do a real Tabata according to the protocol. I try it once in awhile as a way to test my fitness level and gauge my progress. As time goes on, I'm getting a bit closer to doing a Tabata but I'm still a long way away from doing it at the level called for in the protocol. But it's a fun goal to strive for. I'm probably too old to ever achieve it to the letter of the protocol but, heck, why not test myself once in awhile and see how close I can get? Since you sound both younger and a lot more fit than I am, you might get there. If you do, I'd love to hear how it effects your ability to keep on working out immediately afterwards.

Interesting discussion.

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