Running advice

chrishgt4

I've got a 10k (6.2 miles) run coming up early in July and I want to set a good time.

I'm pretty fit as it is, I just don't tend to run long distance any more. I used to do it regularly but have moved more into weights and the only running I do is while playing football. We do proper running at training but it's only 2 miles and it's fairly steady - takes about 15-20 minutes.

A couple of years back I started up again and on my first run I ran an hour straight. I did pretty much exactly 7 miles in 58 minutes. That was straight from no training - so that is the kind of level I'm at currently. That has me pegged at about 50 minutes for the 6.2 miles.

As I say, I'm wanting to set a good time and I'm after some thoughts on the best way to improve. I think I could easily knock 5 minutes off of that time, and hopefully more.

I had 2 trains of thought -
one is to work out my target pace and run at that pace until I can't go any further, then gradually increase the distance.
The other was to keep running 10k, and gradually increase the pace.

Anyone here a runner who has any ideas?

scott091501

I'd choose the latter of your 2 options. Also work in a day of speed work if you can find time. Yassos, fartleks, whatever.

silvergurl518

good luck, chris i'm lucky if i can run a 10k without stopping!!

Lauraph

You need a plan to get you there... I would get on Runners World and use one of their training plans to get a faster time.
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-591--14224-0,00.html

scott091501

The issue you may find with straight running plans (ie stuff off runners world, active.com, Galloway, etc) is that most endurance athletes avoid the weight room. Is this 10k important enough to you to minimize your lifting so you can recover properly from run workouts that make you faster? Also a 10k is pretty much a sprint. You go all out and if you pace it right feel like puking at the finish. It's more mental than anything.

SueInAz

It's better to get the distance down first and then work on your speed. You didn't say which distance you are comfortable running right now, but you'll want to build up to the 6.2 miles by adding no more than 10% more distance each week. This will help you to prevent injury. Run that longer distance one day per week at a pace you can comfortably run the whole distance. This is your endurance run. Two other runs each week you should throw in a shorter run which includes speed drills, hills, intervals, etc. Once you hit 6.2 miles for your long run, keep running it on the weekend (or whichever day you pick for your long run) until two weeks before the race. That weekend, you can run 7 miles, then back to no more than 6.2 until three days before the race. Rest for those 3 days before and you should be more than ready to go.

chrishgt4

good luck, chris i'm lucky if i can run a 10k without stopping!!

Haha thanks - it's not easy but I just sort of keep going no matter how much it hurts - it's not pleasant but it works! lol

JennyWLS

I am also running a 10K soon (5/12/12!) and what I have been doing is going back to my Couch 2 5K program and using the intervals to increase my speed. So instead of doing the run/walk combos, I do run/run super fast combos.

Hope that helps!

chrishgt4

The issue you may find with straight running plans (ie stuff off runners world, active.com, Galloway, etc) is that most endurance athletes avoid the weight room. Is this 10k important enough to you to minimize your lifting so you can recover properly from run workouts that make you faster? Also a 10k is pretty much a sprint. You go all out and if you pace it right feel like puking at the finish. It's more mental than anything.

Regarding your earlier post - that seems to make sense. I've had a quick read up on Yassos and Fartleks, and I think when I've been running before I tend to do my own variation on fartleks, which is I have several songs on my playlist that are a highish BPM, and when they come on I have to keep up for the whole song. Then others where it's just the chorus that is really kick-*kitten* so I use that as the bit I have to sprint for.

I think on the mental side of things is where I'm definitely ok. To the point where when something is really hard (like the sprints I was just saying about) I purposely have to make myself work that bit harder through it just because I want to prove I can (e.g. I'm not happy with just increasing the speed to match the BPM, I also try to increase stride length just for that added difficulty level). And I never stop running - just sort of zone the pain out.

You think then for the actual race I should be working out what my best time is - knock a minute or 2 off it and then set my pace, and not increase or decrease if possible all the way?

Also - it is not important enough to give up my weights. Aside from the fact I have a mate where we both rely on each other for weights, the gym really is my main focus. This is something I have wanted to do and am having to try and squeeze both in, knowing that they will both negatively affect each other...

Michelle_Murray

Also, remember on race day your adreneline will be pumping so you will probably have a fast time than the pace you are keeping now. I know that is usually how it works for my races. Good luck!

chrishgt4

It's better to get the distance down first and then work on your speed. You didn't say which distance you are comfortable running right now, but you'll want to build up to the 6.2 miles by adding no more than 10% more distance each week. This will help you to prevent injury. Run that longer distance one day per week at a pace you can comfortably run the whole distance. This is your endurance run. Two other runs each week you should throw in a shorter run which includes speed drills, hills, intervals, etc. Once you hit 6.2 miles for your long run, keep running it on the weekend (or whichever day you pick for your long run) until two weeks before the race. That weekend, you can run 7 miles, then back to no more than 6.2 until three days before the race. Rest for those 3 days before and you should be more than ready to go.

Hi,

A couple of years back I ran 7 miles in an hour with no prior training and I hadn't done any kind of distance running in probably 10 years so I think I'll probably be at a similar level of fitness, if not slightly better.

The distance itself I'm pretty confident wouldn't be an issue if I were to go out and start tonight.

Sounds like a good plan though - For the shorter runs are we talking half the distance? 3/4 distance?

chrishgt4

I am also running a 10K soon (5/12/12!) and what I have been doing is going back to my Couch 2 5K program and using the intervals to increase my speed. So instead of doing the run/walk combos, I do run/run super fast combos.

Hope that helps!

I've seen people mention the C25K but wrote it off as I can already do more than 5k, but that sounds like an interesting way to vary it, I might have to do some research...

BerryH

It's better to get the distance down first and then work on your speed. You didn't say which distance you are comfortable running right now, but you'll want to build up to the 6.2 miles by adding no more than 10% more distance each week. This will help you to prevent injury. Run that longer distance one day per week at a pace you can comfortably run the whole distance. This is your endurance run. Two other runs each week you should throw in a shorter run which includes speed drills, hills, intervals, etc. Once you hit 6.2 miles for your long run, keep running it on the weekend (or whichever day you pick for your long run) until two weeks before the race. That weekend, you can run 7 miles, then back to no more than 6.2 until three days before the race. Rest for those 3 days before and you should be more than ready to go.

^^^ This is exactly what I'd recommend, listen to Sue for she is wise.

Don't worry about dropping the weights, for 10K it's neither here nor there and the strength bonus will help you with hills and a sprint finish.

chrishgt4

Also, remember on race day your adreneline will be pumping so you will probably have a fast time than the pace you are keeping now. I know that is usually how it works for my races. Good luck!

This is true - perhaps if I try to stick to my pace, then the last half mile go as fast as I can and that way I can get the best of my energy without blowing out too early.

chrishgt4

You need a plan to get you there... I would get on Runners World and use one of their training plans to get a faster time.
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-591--14224-0,00.html

Those look like they would be really good but the intermediate says 5 days running 2 days rest which is more than I can afford.

I'll be doing 2 days dedicated and one other day which comes as part of football training - as mentioned above probably 1 distance day and one shorter day with sprints.

I will have a read on those articles though as there might be a way I can work their schedule with less days.

gleechick609

I make sure I am conditioned enough to run the miles first and then the speed work comes after.

I was training for a HM until injury happened. I had two, 3 mile or 30 minute runs on the week days (1 slow paced and 1 with sprints and speed work) and then a long run (starting with 3 miles) on the weekend that increased 5-10% for three weeks and decreased 50% on the 4th week (rest week). My speed was starting to come along nicely

You could do something along those lines too, if you wanted. 2 short runs during the week (1-3 miles) and then gradually increase by 5% on the weekends. You have plenty of time to train for the10k! You got this! I also agree with the user who said it's all mental. On races, I run hard as I can. When I cross the finish, if I can breathe ok, I didn't push hard enough! I have a 5k this Saturday. Hoping to come in at the 34 minute mark!

SmashleeWpg

What about traning to do your race as a negative split (running the second half faster than the first)? Train by doing Fartleks, intervals, and a bit of steady state, 3 or 4 times a week. Focus on maintaining a comfortable pace for your first 3 miles so that you can really push for the last 3 and come in strong! Since you're limited to the days you can train, really make them count! As it isn't a crazy long distance, I would focus more on speedwork and intervals than on endurance, sounds like you've got that under control already. I realize this is different from what others have suggested - just goes to show how everyone has such a different approach! Good luck!

SueInAz

A couple of years back I ran 7 miles in an hour with no prior training and I hadn't done any kind of distance running in probably 10 years so I think I'll probably be at a similar level of fitness, if not slightly better.

The distance itself I'm pretty confident wouldn't be an issue if I were to go out and start tonight.

Sounds like a good plan though - For the shorter runs are we talking half the distance? 3/4 distance?

Honestly, I'm more worried about the wear and tear on your joints than your cardio endurance at this point, which is why I suggested building up to the distance. I know you're more concerned with speed but the point is to be able to do the training, and the race, without injury and you'll also want to be able to maintain your weight lifting goals during the entire training. You don't want to get sidelined with a knee injury. The speed will come with time. Long slow runs, done in your aerobic heart zone, will help improve your aerobic endurance. The speed drills during your shorter runs will improve your anaerobic endurance.

Half the distance of your long run is a good rule of thumb for your shorter runs, but they don't have to be that long depending on what you're doing that day. If you're going to do some all-out sprints, there's no need to try and do 3 miles of them.

Leesseebee

I train for short distance triathlons and running is my worst part and the tips I have gotten from other triathletes have varied, but one that a number of them have sworn by is to do interval sprints-run all out for as long as you can, then walk and repeat for the distance you are training for. They do one minute on and one minute off.
A friend who does marathons suggested that a better route is to build within your run-instead of sprinting and walking, jog to get progressively faster and faster until you sprint for a short time and then build back down. Think triangle. Divide it up as you like-5 minutes of a triangle...really up to you and your fitness level, which sounds high.
Good luck (you can join the online triathlon forum I started here-there are some stupendous athletes on it and they are more than willing to share their success and tips)!

gkielwei

Add speed training - intervals, tempo runs, or hill repeats will help increase your endurance and speed. Rule of thumb for intervals (for marathons) is translate your minutes into hours; i.e., if you want a 3:45 marathon time - then do intervals (repeats) in 3 minutes 45 seconds.

chrishgt4

A couple of years back I ran 7 miles in an hour with no prior training and I hadn't done any kind of distance running in probably 10 years so I think I'll probably be at a similar level of fitness, if not slightly better.

The distance itself I'm pretty confident wouldn't be an issue if I were to go out and start tonight.

Sounds like a good plan though - For the shorter runs are we talking half the distance? 3/4 distance?

Honestly, I'm more worried about the wear and tear on your joints than your cardio endurance at this point, which is why I suggested building up to the distance. I know you're more concerned with speed but the point is to be able to do the training, and the race, without injury and you'll also want to be able to maintain your weight lifting goals during the entire training. You don't want to get sidelined with a knee injury. The speed will come with time. Long slow runs, done in your aerobic heart zone, will help improve your aerobic endurance. The speed drills during your shorter runs will improve your anaerobic endurance.

Half the distance of your long run is a good rule of thumb for your shorter runs, but they don't have to be that long depending on what you're doing that day. If you're going to do some all-out sprints, there's no need to try and do 3 miles of them.

Ok, that makes sense. Perhaps for a few weeks I will start at 2 runs a week then and build it up to 3 by adding in my distance run on a Sunday.

I'm thinking that the weekday shorter runs can be intervals and not do any days of all out sprinting, since on a Saturday playing football that is pretty much how it goes anyway. Lots and lots of sprints of various distances.

Also - you say about long slow runs in my aerobic heart zone. What range is that typically? Not actually got a HRM but I have a stopwatch so can work it out.

chrishgt4

I train for short distance triathlons and running is my worst part and the tips I have gotten from other triathletes have varied, but one that a number of them have sworn by is to do interval sprints-run all out for as long as you can, then walk and repeat for the distance you are training for. They do one minute on and one minute off.
A friend who does marathons suggested that a better route is to build within your run-instead of sprinting and walking, jog to get progressively faster and faster until you sprint for a short time and then build back down. Think triangle. Divide it up as you like-5 minutes of a triangle...really up to you and your fitness level, which sounds high.
Good luck (you can join the online triathlon forum I started here-there are some stupendous athletes on it and they are more than willing to share their success and tips)!

It seems a lot of people are advocating the interval sprints so I think that's clearly the way to go, with a day of long and steady as mentioned above.

chrishgt4

Add speed training - intervals, tempo runs, or hill repeats will help increase your endurance and speed. Rule of thumb for intervals (for marathons) is translate your minutes into hours; i.e., if you want a 3:45 marathon time - then do intervals (repeats) in 3 minutes 45 seconds.

So would that be 3:45 of solid sprinting followed by 3:45 of jogging etc etc. How many intervals should be completed?

Troutcruiser

Hi there-
I was just going to agree with most of the group here that the best way, I have found, to train for long distance is always distance first, then speed. I am currently just a few weeks out from my 4th 1/2 marathon and this method has worked for me again. Regardless of my speed for the night I always finish the miles. It seems then that when i am having a great day and my run is right on target, my speeds are much better than I ever expected! Plus, this time around I am doing p90x on the side for cross-training and this has helped HUGE! Good luck!

BerryH

Also - you say about long slow runs in my aerobic heart zone. What range is that typically? Not actually got a HRM but I have a stopwatch so can work it out.

70 - 80% of max heart rate, but if you don't have an HRM you'd be better off doing it with Rate of Perceived Exertion. When 0 is sitting on the sofa and 10 is "Oh my God I'm going to puke" sprints, you need to be about 6 or 7, a nice steady pace you feel you could keep up all afternoon. If you feel wiped out after a long run or sore the next day you went too fast.

BerryH

I'm thinking that the weekday shorter runs can be intervals and not do any days of all out sprinting, since on a Saturday playing football that is pretty much how it goes anyway. Lots and lots of sprints of various distances.

Don't make both intervals, make the other hills or a tempo run, which would be your target race pace but half the distance. Always warm up a lot beforehand and cool down properly and stretch afterwards.

whatluckycat

Add speed training - intervals, tempo runs, or hill repeats will help increase your endurance and speed.

Yep. This is what I would do too. You already know you can run the distance, so to do a better time, add interval training.

ATT949

Head over to runnersworld.com and pick out a training plan

Try this URL:

http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/smartcoach

The training plans are free

Another option is their iPhone app.

I would caution against running too much. Rest is very, very important even at your age and endurance. Your cardiovascular is good but running also requires building up the bones, ligaments, and tendons to absorb shock. All the endurance in the world won't help if you're not used to the impact (a half isn't too bad but things get rough when you're doing 30+ per week).

Another option to explore is the FIRST program where you run three targeted runs per week and cross train 2 times per week. It's called 3Plus2 (google it). I reading the book on my phone (Amazon sells the kindle book and the hard copy) and it suits me well. There's a new edition of the book coming out next month, BTW.

Good luck with your running.

mlb929

I used the FIRST program - Run Less Run Faster book. It's one day of intervals, one day of a tempo run - at shorter distances and faster than race pace, and one day of long run - 15-30 seconds slower than race pace, you also run further than your race distance about 4 weeks prior. Their plans are online. You then crosstrain - bike or swim - 2 days. I did weight training as well and took 10 minutes of my half marathon time.

Everything I read about increasing speed is you need hills, intervals, fartleks, time spent running faster than goal pace.

SueInAz

Also - you say about long slow runs in my aerobic heart zone. What range is that typically? Not actually got a HRM but I have a stopwatch so can work it out.

70 - 80% of max heart rate, but if you don't have an HRM you'd be better off doing it with Rate of Perceived Exertion. When 0 is sitting on the sofa and 10 is "Oh my God I'm going to puke" sprints, you need to be about 6 or 7, a nice steady pace you feel you could keep up all afternoon. If you feel wiped out after a long run or sore the next day you went too fast.

I'll go one even easier and tell you that it's the rate at which you can comfortably jog while carrying on a conversation of sorts. Not a monologue but not gasping between every word, either. When I run with my sister, and I start having trouble keeping up my end of the conversation, I know I'm going too fast.

Lauraph

You need a plan to get you there... I would get on Runners World and use one of their training plans to get a faster time.
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-591--14224-0,00.html

Those look like they would be really good but the intermediate says 5 days running 2 days rest which is more than I can afford.

I'll be doing 2 days dedicated and one other day which comes as part of football training - as mentioned above probably 1 distance day and one shorter day with sprints.

I will have a read on those articles though as there might be a way I can work their schedule with less days.

I forgot the Runners World plans take up so much time. There is a book "Run Less, Run Faster" that only has three days of runs.

I am a firm believer in running plans... like others said you have to build your mileage first, then your speed. You have plenty of time before your race so you could just focus on steady mileage now and then about 10 weeks out before the race start the 3 day a week plan. The plan will probably have track/speed work one day, hills or tempo another and a long distance on the weekends. Usually Tuesday/Thursday/Satruday.