How can carbs be bad when ppl have eaten them for thousands

Acg67

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

grinch031

Only if you want your head filled with lots of nonsense

Excess calories make you fat regardless of it's carbs, fats or pro.

I agree that excess calories make you fat.
But regardless of carbs? (I prefer to speak of grain products as I am not against carbs)

What do you base your claims on? Can you provide facts? I'd be interested.

You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio. However I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior.

grinch031

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

I really don't care about rate of fat loss too much. What I care about is why low carb diets cause the body's set point to lower in most people.

You bring this up a lot, do you have a link or pubmed search criteria where I can find some of these studies to see what they show?

Acg67

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

I really don't care about rate of fat loss too much. What I care about is why low carb diets cause the body's set point to lower in most people.

You bring this up a lot, do you have a link or pubmed search criteria where I can find some of these studies to see what they show?

What do you mean it causes the body's set point to lower in most people?

Just search for low carbohydrate weight loss trials and then get to work on the citations and references

grinch031

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

I really don't care about rate of fat loss too much. What I care about is why low carb diets cause the body's set point to lower in most people.

You bring this up a lot, do you have a link or pubmed search criteria where I can find some of these studies to see what they show?

What do you mean it causes the body's set point to lower in most people?

Just search for low carbohydrate weight loss trials and then get to work on the citations and references

Yeah I looked before but didn't know the magic keywords to get to the relevant studies.

Basically the set point that the body prefers to stay at in an ad lib environment. My set point has been 180 for the past 2 months after dropping about 15 lbs. No matter how I structure my eating and despite a gradual increase in weekly mileage in running, my weight has not changed at all besides the small fluctuations.

Back when I was doing races on a high carb diet, I was slowly increasing weight to where I'd hit 200 lbs and then go on some drastic reduction in calories and the cycle repeated every few months.

mmapags

Only if you want your head filled with lots of nonsense

Excess calories make you fat regardless of it's carbs, fats or pro.

I agree that excess calories make you fat.
But regardless of carbs? (I prefer to speak of grain products as I am not against carbs)

What do you base your claims on? Can you provide facts? I'd be interested.

You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio. However I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior.

And I would ask the same of you that you asked of Acg67. I mean no challenge or disrespect in that. The above statement, or some version of it, I've seen you repeat as your belief. I ask with a completely open mind, do you have any studies that support this belief? It may be true for all I know. I'd be interested in learning if it is or isn't.

grinch031

Only if you want your head filled with lots of nonsense

Excess calories make you fat regardless of it's carbs, fats or pro.

I agree that excess calories make you fat.
But regardless of carbs? (I prefer to speak of grain products as I am not against carbs)

What do you base your claims on? Can you provide facts? I'd be interested.

You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio. However I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior.

And I would ask the same of you that you asked of Acg67. I mean no challenge or disrespect in that. The above statement, or some version of it, I've seen you repeat as your belief. I ask with a completely open mind, do you have any studies that support this belief? It may be true for all I know. I'd be interested in learning if it is or isn't.

Which belief as I stated 3 of them in that paragraph?

Acg67

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

I really don't care about rate of fat loss too much. What I care about is why low carb diets cause the body's set point to lower in most people.

You bring this up a lot, do you have a link or pubmed search criteria where I can find some of these studies to see what they show?

What do you mean it causes the body's set point to lower in most people?

Just search for low carbohydrate weight loss trials and then get to work on the citations and references

Yeah I looked before but didn't know the magic keywords to get to the relevant studies.

Basically the set point that the body prefers to stay at in an ad lib environment. My set point has been 180 for the past 2 months after dropping about 15 lbs. No matter how I structure my eating and despite a gradual increase in weekly mileage in running, my weight has not changed at all besides the small fluctuations.

Back when I was doing races on a high carb diet, I was slowly increasing weight to where I'd hit 200 lbs and then go on some drastic reduction in calories and the cycle repeated every few months.

And on what basis did you exclude all other diets from lowering the set point and what has lead you to beleive the set point theory is accurate

AtticusFinch

One time my trainer asked me what I eat and as I was listing it she said "Oh you're still ON bread?" like it was a drug or something!!

Your trainer sounds like a bit of a *kitten*. Is he/she a meathead, a spotty youth?

mmapags

Only if you want your head filled with lots of nonsense

Excess calories make you fat regardless of it's carbs, fats or pro.

I agree that excess calories make you fat.
But regardless of carbs? (I prefer to speak of grain products as I am not against carbs)

What do you base your claims on? Can you provide facts? I'd be interested.

You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio. However I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior.

And I would ask the same of you that you asked of Acg67. I mean no challenge or disrespect in that. The above statement, or some version of it, I've seen you repeat as your belief. I ask with a completely open mind, do you have any studies that support this belief? It may be true for all I know. I'd be interested in learning if it is or isn't.

Which belief as I stated 3 of them in that paragraph?

"You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio."

This one is proven fact in my opinion.

" I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior."

These are the statement that I'd be interested in seeing if they can be backed up by any valid research. Thanks for clarifying.

grinch031

Nice reasoning.

No I think that the majority of people with weight problems have some intolerance to carbohydrates. I think eating a high carb calorie restricted diet is not very helpful in the long term. I don't care what works for you, I'm talking about people who have weight problems.

There is evidence that does suggest high fat and low fat phenotypes but I don't think all overweight people (or even the majority) have problems with carbohydrates. It does become a trial and error thing but Im not convinced someone who is in a caloric deficit can have fat loss completely halted by the introduction of carbohydrates.

I happen to think its the majority that does have problems with carbs, as opposed to just a small minority. I'm not convinced either that someone on a caloric deficit can have fat loss halted by carbs because that would defy the laws of physics. I just think that eating too many carbs makes it so difficult to prevent overeating because they lead to increased hunger in susceptible individuals (aka. the majority of fat people).

Then in the majority of studies with ad lib intake comparing low carb diets vs a more mixed diet should show greater fat loss, but it's about 50/50 and even less when you look for matched protein intakes

I really don't care about rate of fat loss too much. What I care about is why low carb diets cause the body's set point to lower in most people.

You bring this up a lot, do you have a link or pubmed search criteria where I can find some of these studies to see what they show?

What do you mean it causes the body's set point to lower in most people?

Just search for low carbohydrate weight loss trials and then get to work on the citations and references

Yeah I looked before but didn't know the magic keywords to get to the relevant studies.

Basically the set point that the body prefers to stay at in an ad lib environment. My set point has been 180 for the past 2 months after dropping about 15 lbs. No matter how I structure my eating and despite a gradual increase in weekly mileage in running, my weight has not changed at all besides the small fluctuations.

Back when I was doing races on a high carb diet, I was slowly increasing weight to where I'd hit 200 lbs and then go on some drastic reduction in calories and the cycle repeated every few months.

And on what basis did you exclude all other diets from lowering the set point and what has lead you to beleive the set point theory is accurate

Because low-carb diets tend to lead to weight loss without explicitly limiting calories. And my belief is that eating to satiety will allow the body to stabilize at a set point.

Oh I believe set point theory exists in some form, I just question whether its controlled by the brain or whether insulin plays a more significant role. So is it regulated like a lake or like a thermostat.

Acg67

Because low-carb diets tend to lead to weight loss without explicitly limiting calories. And my belief is that eating to satiety will allow the body to stabilize at a set point.

Oh I believe set point theory exists in some form, I just question whether its controlled by the brain or whether insulin plays a more significant role. So is it regulated like a lake or like a thermostat.

Except that they are explicitly limiting calories, carbs have calories therefore limiting carbs limits calories

10KEyes

Look at all the civilizations that eat carbs, like white rice daily, up to 3x/day. How can it be that bad for us? When I lived in Europe we had white crusty bread with EVERY meal. Most people in the areas where they eat a lot of carbs are (or have been) healthy. And yes the walk more than Americans but I live in a city and walk everywhere now too...

So what's the deal? Are carbs really that bad? And if you say yes, how do you explain Asian, South American and European eating habits and health?

From veggies no. Grains and processed yes, but only because there are TOO MANY in them. Anything good you can find in a grain, you can find as much or more in veggies.

Look at it this way....

In dietary terms... There are ESSENTIAL amino acids (protein) and ESSENTIAL fatty acids (fat), but there is NO such thing as an essential carbohydrate. That is because your body can create all the glucose it needs from fats and protein.

10KEyes

Read The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson... Or go to www.marksdailyapple.com. Go Primal!! :bigsmile:

DEFINITELY! Go Primal!

grinch031

Only if you want your head filled with lots of nonsense

Excess calories make you fat regardless of it's carbs, fats or pro.

I agree that excess calories make you fat.
But regardless of carbs? (I prefer to speak of grain products as I am not against carbs)

What do you base your claims on? Can you provide facts? I'd be interested.

You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio. However I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior.

And I would ask the same of you that you asked of Acg67. I mean no challenge or disrespect in that. The above statement, or some version of it, I've seen you repeat as your belief. I ask with a completely open mind, do you have any studies that support this belief? It may be true for all I know. I'd be interested in learning if it is or isn't.

Which belief as I stated 3 of them in that paragraph?

"You can manually overfeed and get fat with any macro-nutrient ratio."

This one is proven fact in my opinion.

" I haven't seen much evidence that people on low-carb diets will generally gain much weight while eating ad lib. Why because low-carb diets lead to better control of hunger and eating behavior."

These are the statement that I'd be interested in seeing if they can be backed up by any valid research. Thanks for clarifying.

Well I can't find evidence that people on low-carb diets gain much weight with ad lib eating, but I don't know that its even been tested.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/86/2/276.full#R27

Several studies confirm that there is a spontaneous reduction in caloric intake when carbohydrate intake only is restricted to 5–10% of caloric intake (24). In the most controlled study to date, an LCD led to hunger levels similar to those of a low-fat diet, even though the daily caloric intake with the LCD was 1000 kcal lower (13). Another study used the Eating Inventory, a validated questionnaire assessing hunger and cognitive restraint, and found that hunger was reduced by 50% when measured after 1 wk of an LCD (25). Another study examining a 20-g carbohydrate diet found that fasting serum leptin was reduced by 50% and fasting serum neuropeptide Y was reduced by 15% (26). It may also be that the mere lowering of serum insulin concentrations, as is seen with LCDs, may lead to a reduction in appetite. In support of this idea, several studies have found that insulin increases food intake, that foods with high insulin responses are less satiating, and that suppression of insulin with octreotide leads to weight loss (27-29).

dieseljay74

Carbs arent bad unless processed. I slam some carbs in the first half of the day and throttle way back on them after lunch.

PaleoPath4Lyfe

Carbs in fresh fruit and vegetables are not bad..
Carbs from table sugar, flour, and starchy vegetables are very bad.

Humans were eating fruit and vegetables for a couple hundred thousand years and our ancient human ancestors for hundreds of thousands more years before that...

The other carbs are relatively recent.

Starchy vegetables are fine if your activity level supports them. Early humans were eating tubers and other starchy vegetables also.

timherrmann

I think a lot of people approach weight loss like gamblers approach get-rich-quick schemes. There's some "magic" formula out there that will get you to your ideal weight fast. Low Carbs, no salt, no processed sugar, no fat, hi protein, Atkins, etc etc etc ad infinitum. The reality is, it's really just math--if you take in more than you burn, you increase weight. If you take in less, you (eventually) lose weight. The rest is just rubbish, from my perspective. I eat less carbs now because I count calroies via this website and can't "afford" the calories that carbs provide. I think the rest, to be blatently honest, is people trying to rip other people off with their special plan, diet, or regimen, whatever. It's all minutia that I don't pay attention to. Everything in moderation.

grinch031

Because low-carb diets tend to lead to weight loss without explicitly limiting calories. And my belief is that eating to satiety will allow the body to stabilize at a set point.

Oh I believe set point theory exists in some form, I just question whether its controlled by the brain or whether insulin plays a more significant role. So is it regulated like a lake or like a thermostat.

Except that they are explicitly limiting calories, carbs have calories therefore limiting carbs limits calories

So is the number of calories eaten in a day based on habit and not driven by the body's need for energy? I shouldn't be hungrier on a diet where I'm eating more calories. That makes little sense.

prettygirlhoward

I love carbs!!!

Me too! But I have to limit mine

militarydreams

Thousands of years isn't much in evolutionary terms. We're barely adjusted to eat meat but not necessarily dependant on it, it's just the most calorie efficient source of protien. I'm no scientist but I'm sure there are interesting timelines to be seen here.

Edit: Vegetables are good of course... all carbs aren't created equal

Acg67

Because low-carb diets tend to lead to weight loss without explicitly limiting calories. And my belief is that eating to satiety will allow the body to stabilize at a set point.

Oh I believe set point theory exists in some form, I just question whether its controlled by the brain or whether insulin plays a more significant role. So is it regulated like a lake or like a thermostat.

Except that they are explicitly limiting calories, carbs have calories therefore limiting carbs limits calories

So is the number of calories eaten in a day based on habit and not driven by the body's need for energy? I shouldn't be hungrier on a diet where I'm eating more calories. That makes little sense.

If you want an interesting read

Possible entrainment of ghrelin to habitual meal patterns in humans. AJP - GI March 1, 2008 vol. 294 no. 3 G699-G707
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/294/3/G699.full

atrjohnson

I enjoy carbs as well. After being diagnosed with PCOS I cannot have as many of them as I once did. I did not give them up easily and I have only being diagnosed for three weeks. But after feeling bad for months I will follow whatever recommendations my Drs give me. For me that means less carbs. I am nowhere near Atkins level carbs but I definitely do not follow the standard American diet anymore.

AeolianHarp

So is the number of calories eaten in a day based on habit and not driven by the body's need for energy? I shouldn't be hungrier on a diet where I'm eating more calories. That makes little sense.

“The combination of these data with George’s insightful idea, has merged into a modification of the popular Set-Point Theory of the regulation of body weight. The alternative “Settling Zone” Theory suggests that whereas biology may determine a range of body weights (adiposity) that are maintained fairly constant for long periods of time, within this “zone”, the behaviors responsible for controlling energy intake and energy expenditure are influenced primarily by environmental and cognitive stimuli.”

grinch031

Because low-carb diets tend to lead to weight loss without explicitly limiting calories. And my belief is that eating to satiety will allow the body to stabilize at a set point.

Oh I believe set point theory exists in some form, I just question whether its controlled by the brain or whether insulin plays a more significant role. So is it regulated like a lake or like a thermostat.

Except that they are explicitly limiting calories, carbs have calories therefore limiting carbs limits calories

So is the number of calories eaten in a day based on habit and not driven by the body's need for energy? I shouldn't be hungrier on a diet where I'm eating more calories. That makes little sense.

If you want an interesting read

Possible entrainment of ghrelin to habitual meal patterns in humans. AJP - GI March 1, 2008 vol. 294 no. 3 G699-G707
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/294/3/G699.full

Yeah this doesn't really change my stance. I know my eating patterns are very inconsistent and I can overwhelmingly feel the compensatory nature of my body. Not only does it affect my eating habits, but when I overeat I feel this overwhelming desire to exercise.

grinch031

So is the number of calories eaten in a day based on habit and not driven by the body's need for energy? I shouldn't be hungrier on a diet where I'm eating more calories. That makes little sense.

“The combination of these data with George’s insightful idea, has merged into a modification of the popular Set-Point Theory of the regulation of body weight. The alternative “Settling Zone” Theory suggests that whereas biology may determine a range of body weights (adiposity) that are maintained fairly constant for long periods of time, within this “zone”, the behaviors responsible for controlling energy intake and energy expenditure are influenced primarily by environmental and cognitive stimuli.”

I think the brain largely controls what foods we choose to eat based on the reward value of the foods available, but ultimately how much of it is all driven by the physiological response to those foods and its effect on our set point. Behavioral changes are downstream effects of that. I don't overeat because I have psychological problems, I overeat when I make the choice to start increasing carb intake.

chevy88grl

Carbs are not inherently bad. Overeating carbs is, just as with anything else.

This. I eat a ton of carbs in a day and I've maintained my weight for nearly 2 years. Carbs, like fat, aren't the enemy. Overeating is the enemy.

Trechechus

Carbs aren't bad. They are essential.

cllovesdw4eva

I cant wait to get back to carbs...I got nothing but love for carbs, the problem with is that they are in everything thats good......so that makes them bad LOL.

Just kidding. I think lowering carbs is one of the best ways for ME personally to kickup my metabolism. I can eat fats and know that they will pretty much be burned or eliminated with fiber....but sweets sugar and starches are now my sworn enemy.

Masterdo

The main problem I have with the CICO model is that body fat is regulated, and when people overeat/undereat the body will compensate to maintain homeostasis. It seems that lowering carb intake can drop the body weight set point in most people to some extent without feeling overly hungry. However keeping carb intake high while dropping calories can lead excessive hunger.

Or the most more simple explanation, when people lower carbs then generally increase protein intake which is found to be the most satiating macro

Very nice answer. I saw a study earlier about exactly that subject. They were comparing people on 3 diets. A control group, a group of high protein low carbs and a group of high protein high carbs. Their findings were that both groups were losing weight way more efficiently than the control group, and there was no significant difference between the groups. Not for weight loss at least, the study indicates that if you are trying to go from 10% to 6% body fat, THEN you might want to start considering keeping carbs on the low side.

Carbs are not evil, people using carbs in fast food in the way that costs the least are the enemy. There is a multi billion industry out there trying to kill you slowly, and another 90 billion industry telling you it's fine as long as you diet every once in a while... Read a lot, eat real food (including carbs) and you will beat them all