BMR, TDEE, etc... confused!!

BellaT81

Hi all,

I am fairly new to this site, and have been relying on MFP to tell me how many calories I should net a day, and then eating most of my exercise calories back on top of that.

After reading another post on the forum, I checked my BMR on Fat2FitRadio.com. It comes up with 2 BMR numbers (one takes account of BF%). One is above the calorie net suggested by MFP, and one below.

I am no thoroughly confused as to how many calories I should be eating. Is it safe to just follow what is suggested by MFP if I am only just starting out?

My stats are:

Height: 5'4
CW: 243
GW: 154

MFP tells me my net calories for losing 2lbs per week should be 1460 + exercise cals. But F2FR says BMR is either 1876 OR 1332 (taking account of BF%).

PercivalHackworth

Given your weight and age, you could start with the middle : around 1600 calories, but don't eat them back.

do you plain to train or do you only want to lose weight ?

yarwell

it's always easier to back one horse and stick with it - MFP uses one approach and F2F another. In http://www.fat2fitradio.com/2012/03/fat-2-fit-141-eating-your-exercise-calories/ they actually talk about the differences.

I would agree with Razique and eat 1500 - 1600 per day and see how it goes for 2 - 4 weeks. All of these calculators are estimates and your BMR will decline as you cut calories and lose weight, so just set a deficit and go with it. You have a way to go and pinpoint accuracy may not be required at this stage.

If you do modest exercise then either take the advantage of an extra deficit or have a modest snack if you need it.

To address the numbers :-

MFP's 1460 with 2 lbs/week loss means MFP think you are using 2460 cals per day for your BMR and activity level, and subtracts 1000 for the loss rate to get to 1460

F2F calcs your current BMR at 1876 (Harris-Benedict formula, no %fat data) but it advises for your weight loss goal to eat about 1750 with a sedentary life style. It uses a philosophy of eating at the long term energy needs of the person you want to be, not the one you currently are.

If you put a fat % into F2F it uses the Katch-McArdle Formula and the calculated BMR is anywhere from 1300 to 1800 depending on the fat percent you put in - at 60% fat I got it as low as 1322 but F2F doesn't use this in the section down the page entitled "How Many Calories Should I Eat?".

The other thing is that it is not a big deal (or even a small one) to eat less than your BMR - especially how we've seen how hard it is to predict. Setting a sensible deficit and losing at a reasonable rate like 1-2 lbs/week is fine, providing you eat plenty of protein and a varied diet to get all the other stuff you need.

iceqieen

* The MFP net calories are not BMR. It is what they have calculated for you to eat to loose 2 lb.
Calculation goes like this:
Total Daily Energy Expenditure = BMR + Energy used on daily bases (this is BMR * 1.2 for sedetary, more for active etc.)
To loose 2lbs/week you need to consume 7000 calories less per week than you spend. Averaged on 7 days means 1000 calories less than you spend every day.
This means:
Daily net calories = TDEE - 1000 = 1460
AND EAT BACK EXERCISE CALORIES. that is what MFP recommends, and plenty of posters here who have lost quite allot too.

My advice to you:

#1 You are awesome NOW!

You will feel healthier later, or thinner, or lighter.. but you are always the same awesome you! Be happy with what you see in the mirror. Focus on the good parts. With time you might find new good parts to be happy about, but DO NOT allow yourself to focus on anything you are unhappy with. You CANNOT spot reduce. You CAN tone. So don't worry about where things are going away, just focus on feeling better and happier.

Also the Scale is not the ultimate measurement. TAKE PICTURES NOW! Even if they are just for your eyes only. You will feel times when things are not moving on the scale, then take out those pictures and take new pictures and see the difference. Take measurements as well. The cm will be going in weird places, sometimes less obvious than others, but they will be going.

#2 Start with eating *at least* 1460 calories a day.

Eat back at least some of your exercise calories, depending on how you are measuring them and what type of exercise you are doing. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. If you are getting very tired on the amount of food and exercise you are doing then eat more. If you are just sore, that is fine - that are your muscles saying "thank you" :P

* If you are using MFP to estimate your calories, then don't neccessarily eat them all back. Can start with half.
* If you are using a HRM or some other more personalised and accurate way of estimating the calories, then eat almost all back.
* Basically HRM > the machine you are using counting calories for you > MFP

#3 It all events out in the end!

If you go over one day, THAT IS FINE. If you are under another, IT IS ALSO FINE. The body has lots of balancing mechanisms in place, so one bad day in either dirrection won't ruin you (might feel like **** the day after but in terms of weight it doesn't have a huge impact). As long as you are averaging UNDER your TDEE + Exercise over a long period of time, you will loose. More under = more loss, unless you go waaaay under. Then another balancing mechanism kicks in, the body assumes you will be under nourished for a long time and it will slow your metabolism down. The balancing mechanisms of the body is the reason why humans have lived through famines and hardships.. but it makes it difficult to diet and then expect to go right back to old eating patterns

#4 Pick exercise you like!

Sure, running on a treadmill at huge elevation will burn more than a walk in the park - but unless you are one of those that loves the treadmill, you won't stick with it for ever. Start with something you CAN do and then add to the difficulty (time, length, resistance..) over time. Keep track of your fitness, you will be SO happy when you notice you can climb more stairs without going out of breath, or are able to walk for longer without feeling tired. Food intake is much more important for weight loss than exercise, but exercise is important for health. Pick some goals, maybe one small, one medium and one super hard, and work on them. If you stick to it you will be sooo happy to see where you are at in a month or a year.

iceqieen

PS. Links you might find helpfull.

There's weight lifting - a good group to ask questions is : http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/771-women-strength-training

There's calorie counting - but be carefull with not going too under. Listen to your body and learn about TDEE, BMR and calorie deficit
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/3047-700-calories-a-day-and-not-losing
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/567092--read-this-figuring-out-your-calorie-goals

Eating back exercise calories - http://www.shouldieatmyexercisecalories.com/

BellaT81

Given your weight and age, you could start with the middle : around 1600 calories, but don't eat them back.

do you plain to train or do you only want to lose weight ?

Thanks - planning on training as well, but initially the aim is to concentrate on losing weight and increasing cardio fitness through circuit training, calisthenics, swimming and walking.

BellaT81

it's always easier to back one horse and stick with it - MFP uses one approach and F2F another. In http://www.fat2fitradio.com/2012/03/fat-2-fit-141-eating-your-exercise-calories/ they actually talk about the differences.

I would agree with Razique and eat 1500 - 1600 per day and see how it goes for 2 - 4 weeks. All of these calculators are estimates and your BMR will decline as you cut calories and lose weight, so just set a deficit and go with it. You have a way to go and pinpoint accuracy may not be required at this stage.

If you do modest exercise then either take the advantage of an extra deficit or have a modest snack if you need it.

To address the numbers :-

MFP's 1460 with 2 lbs/week loss means MFP think you are using 2460 cals per day for your BMR and activity level, and subtracts 1000 for the loss rate to get to 1460

F2F calcs your current BMR at 1876 (Harris-Benedict formula, no %fat data) but it advises for your weight loss goal to eat about 1750 with a sedentary life style. It uses a philosophy of eating at the long term energy needs of the person you want to be, not the one you currently are.

If you put a fat % into F2F it uses the Katch-McArdle Formula and the calculated BMR is anywhere from 1300 to 1800 depending on the fat percent you put in - at 60% fat I got it as low as 1322 but F2F doesn't use this in the section down the page entitled "How Many Calories Should I Eat?".

The other thing is that it is not a big deal (or even a small one) to eat less than your BMR - especially how we've seen how hard it is to predict. Setting a sensible deficit and losing at a reasonable rate like 1-2 lbs/week is fine, providing you eat plenty of protein and a varied diet to get all the other stuff you need.

Thanks for the detailed post - I didn't realise there was a difference in the system. Interesting! Think I'll just stick to the goals I set through MFP for now, and see how I get on.

BellaT81

* The MFP net calories are not BMR. It is what they have calculated for you to eat to loose 2 lb.
Calculation goes like this:
Total Daily Energy Expenditure = BMR + Energy used on daily bases (this is BMR * 1.2 for sedetary, more for active etc.)
To loose 2lbs/week you need to consume 7000 calories less per week than you spend. Averaged on 7 days means 1000 calories less than you spend every day.
This means:
Daily net calories = TDEE - 1000 = 1460
AND EAT BACK EXERCISE CALORIES. that is what MFP recommends, and plenty of posters here who have lost quite allot too.

My advice to you:

#1 You are awesome NOW!

You will feel healthier later, or thinner, or lighter.. but you are always the same awesome you! Be happy with what you see in the mirror. Focus on the good parts. With time you might find new good parts to be happy about, but DO NOT allow yourself to focus on anything you are unhappy with. You CANNOT spot reduce. You CAN tone. So don't worry about where things are going away, just focus on feeling better and happier.

Also the Scale is not the ultimate measurement. TAKE PICTURES NOW! Even if they are just for your eyes only. You will feel times when things are not moving on the scale, then take out those pictures and take new pictures and see the difference. Take measurements as well. The cm will be going in weird places, sometimes less obvious than others, but they will be going.

#2 Start with eating *at least* 1460 calories a day.

Eat back at least some of your exercise calories, depending on how you are measuring them and what type of exercise you are doing. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. If you are getting very tired on the amount of food and exercise you are doing then eat more. If you are just sore, that is fine - that are your muscles saying "thank you" :P

* If you are using MFP to estimate your calories, then don't neccessarily eat them all back. Can start with half.
* If you are using a HRM or some other more personalised and accurate way of estimating the calories, then eat almost all back.
* Basically HRM > the machine you are using counting calories for you > MFP

#3 It all events out in the end!

If you go over one day, THAT IS FINE. If you are under another, IT IS ALSO FINE. The body has lots of balancing mechanisms in place, so one bad day in either dirrection won't ruin you (might feel like **** the day after but in terms of weight it doesn't have a huge impact). As long as you are averaging UNDER your TDEE + Exercise over a long period of time, you will loose. More under = more loss, unless you go waaaay under. Then another balancing mechanism kicks in, the body assumes you will be under nourished for a long time and it will slow your metabolism down. The balancing mechanisms of the body is the reason why humans have lived through famines and hardships.. but it makes it difficult to diet and then expect to go right back to old eating patterns

#4 Pick exercise you like!

Sure, running on a treadmill at huge elevation will burn more than a walk in the park - but unless you are one of those that loves the treadmill, you won't stick with it for ever. Start with something you CAN do and then add to the difficulty (time, length, resistance..) over time. Keep track of your fitness, you will be SO happy when you notice you can climb more stairs without going out of breath, or are able to walk for longer without feeling tired. Food intake is much more important for weight loss than exercise, but exercise is important for health. Pick some goals, maybe one small, one medium and one super hard, and work on them. If you stick to it you will be sooo happy to see where you are at in a month or a year.

Thanks for all the advice; It's very useful and much appreciated!!

I have to say - I'm not hugely down on myself because of the excess weight, but know there are huge health benefits in the long term from losing what is no necessary. Plus, I've been meaning to get back to proper exercise for longer than I care to remember. Based on all the responses here, I will stick to eating the calorie goal set for me by MFP (1460) plus eating back some of my exercise calories. Right now my body is definitely telling me this is working well for it!

Thanks again. :-)

Bella

chevy88grl

When it comes to weight loss, you'll deal with a lot of guessing and trial and error. What works for one person won't work for everyone (and don't let anyone convince you otherwise -- if weight loss was easy and one size fits all, no one would be overweight!).

The numbers you get from all of these are estimates - you'll have to see what works for you and tweak to be effective with you and your goals. For me, MFP is far too low. They have me at around 1900 for maintenance and I know that is just too low (I can easily maintain in the 2300-2500 NET range). I learned this by simply playing around with the numbers until I hit on what works for me.

Most people will tell you NOT to eat below your BMR however. So, you may want to keep that in mind.

Good Luck.

DawnEH612

Bella, I see so many females wanting to put lifting weights on hold while they focus on diet and cardio. But you're doing yourself a huge disservice by doing that...

If I may make a suggestion to you it is to increase your muscle or lean body mass... While I KNOW that cardio gives an immediate reward by showing BIG calorie burn numbers in a short time, the reality is, it only keeps your metabolism revved up for a few hours after you exercise and then quickly drops off.

On the obverse, weight lifting, while it does not give the immediate gratification of the high calorie burn that we like to see when we do cardio, it does give us things that cardio just can not do:

1) as we age, we loose muscle mass, period. This is especially true for females who start out with lower muscle mass to begin with. The loss in muscle mass, especially as a female is one of the reasons it is so hard for us to loose weight as we age. Lower muscle mass = lower BMR, higher muscle mass = higher BMR.
2)muscle makes us stronger, leaner and more shapely- it helps to define us rather than just peel away a layer of fat.. It helps accentuate all the right places and whittle in all the wrong ones! (I'm not incinuating spot reduction here, just more shape)
3)over the course of a day people with higher composition of muscle WILL burn more calories doing everything they do in a day(including sleeping) and in the long run burn more calories in a day, with typical exercise, than a female that only does cardio for 60 minutes without strength training. Given two women who are the same in weight, height and bone structure with the only exception being the amount of muscle mass, meaning one lifts weights and the other does not... The one that lifts will have more muscle, will be able to eat more, and will more than likely weigh more but wear smaller clothes, be stronger, more confident, walk taller, look and BE leaner with a tighter body.
4)while cardio, potentially, burns a lot of calories, did you know it uses whatever the most readily available energy source your body is willing to give up to fuel it, including MUSCLE! So, when you see that 450 calorie burn, remember,some of that IS muscle mass! The body does not typically begin to use fat stores as energy until 20-30 minutes into a work out.
5) muscle helps prevent your body from adjusting to a lower calorie consumption as you will be able to eat more because your metabolism will naturally be at a higher state more consistently. (higher BMR)
If you haven't been able to figure out what I am suggesting...
Please do not delay in adding strength training. After you feel comfortable learning/practicing strength training exercises, don't be afraid to step away from the "girly" size weights and truly dig into picking up some of the bad boy weights. We, as females, will never, unless a feak of nature or using performance enhancing supplements, become big and bulky. Trust me, I lift heavy 3-4 times/week and have yet to mistaken myself in the mirror for Arnold Schwartzenegger, lol.

All the best to you on your journey!

cherrybomb_77

I used the search function to read all the recent threads on BMR, TDEE, etc, and I find I'm still confused on whether or not I'm eating enough. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but can someone tell me if I'm doing the right thing by following MFP? I'm not doing F2F, just following MFP.

I weigh 218, I have my MFP activity set to "lightly active" since I SAHM (sometimes I'm on my feet all day running around, sometimes I'm sitting most of the day).

My BMR is 1,746. My TDEE according to fitnessfrog.com is 2753. My BF is 38%

I have MFP set to lose 2 lbs a week. They have me at a goal of 1360 net, and I do eat back my exercise calories. Am I eating enough? TIA.

iceqieen

I used the search function to read all the recent threads on BMR, TDEE, etc, and I find I'm still confused on whether or not I'm eating enough. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but can someone tell me if I'm doing the right thing by following MFP? I'm not doing F2F, just following MFP.

I weigh 218, I have my MFP activity set to "lightly active" since I SAHM (sometimes I'm on my feet all day running around, sometimes I'm sitting most of the day).

My BMR is 1,746. My TDEE according to fitnessfrog.com is 2753. My BF is 38%

I have MFP set to lose 2 lbs a week. They have me at a goal of 1360 net, and I do eat back my exercise calories. Am I eating enough? TIA.

Do you feel good, or do you feel tired and hungry all the time. That is really the best measurement :P

But sounds like you are eating ok. You might want to consider upping your calorise to 1700 to meet your BMR (seems allot of people recommend that) and when you get below 200s consider lowering weight loss to 1.5lbs pr month (and again further down to 1.. etc) but really follow what makes *you* feel good.

yarwell

I have MFP set to lose 2 lbs a week. They have me at a goal of 1360 net, and I do eat back my exercise calories. Am I eating enough?

Well if you feel good and the weight comes off - 8 pounds in one month - then yes.

If you struggle to stick to it, set a lower loss rate goal and it'll tell you to eat more.

em9371

Bella, I see so many females wanting to put lifting weights on hold while they focus on diet and cardio. But you're doing yourself a huge disservice by doing that...

If I may make a suggestion to you it is to increase your muscle or lean body mass... While I KNOW that cardio gives an immediate reward by showing BIG calorie burn numbers in a short time, the reality is, it only keeps your metabolism revved up for a few hours after you exercise and then quickly drops off.

On the obverse, weight lifting, while it does not give the immediate gratification of the high calorie burn that we like to see when we do cardio, it does give us things that cardio just can not do:

1) as we age, we loose muscle mass, period. This is especially true for females who start out with lower muscle mass to begin with. The loss in muscle mass, especially as a female is one of the reasons it is so hard for us to loose weight as we age. Lower muscle mass = lower BMR, higher muscle mass = higher BMR.
2)muscle makes us stronger, leaner and more shapely- it helps to define us rather than just peel away a layer of fat.. It helps accentuate all the right places and whittle in all the wrong ones! (I'm not incinuating spot reduction here, just more shape)
3)over the course of a day people with higher composition of muscle WILL burn more calories doing everything they do in a day(including sleeping) and in the long run burn more calories in a day, with typical exercise, than a female that only does cardio for 60 minutes without strength training. Given two women who are the same in weight, height and bone structure with the only exception being the amount of muscle mass, meaning one lifts weights and the other does not... The one that lifts will have more muscle, will be able to eat more, and will more than likely weigh more but wear smaller clothes, be stronger, more confident, walk taller, look and BE leaner with a tighter body.
4)while cardio, potentially, burns a lot of calories, did you know it uses whatever the most readily available energy source your body is willing to give up to fuel it, including MUSCLE! So, when you see that 450 calorie burn, remember,some of that IS muscle mass! The body does not typically begin to use fat stores as energy until 20-30 minutes into a work out.
5) muscle helps prevent your body from adjusting to a lower calorie consumption as you will be able to eat more because your metabolism will naturally be at a higher state more consistently. (higher BMR)
If you haven't been able to figure out what I am suggesting...
Please do not delay in adding strength training. After you feel comfortable learning/practicing strength training exercises, don't be afraid to step away from the "girly" size weights and truly dig into picking up some of the bad boy weights. We, as females, will never, unless a feak of nature or using performance enhancing supplements, become big and bulky. Trust me, I lift heavy 3-4 times/week and have yet to mistaken myself in the mirror for Arnold Schwartzenegger, lol.

All the best to you on your journey!

^^^^ amazing post.
Start lifting ASAP, this will help prevent muscle loss and increase the amount of calories you burn even at rest, you will lose more inches and generally look and feel better.
By doing cardio only, you are effectively burning off some of your muscle mass so you burn less cals and eventually the loss will slow down and you end up 'skinnyfat'.

em9371

I used the search function to read all the recent threads on BMR, TDEE, etc, and I find I'm still confused on whether or not I'm eating enough. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but can someone tell me if I'm doing the right thing by following MFP? I'm not doing F2F, just following MFP.

I weigh 218, I have my MFP activity set to "lightly active" since I SAHM (sometimes I'm on my feet all day running around, sometimes I'm sitting most of the day).

My BMR is 1,746. My TDEE according to fitnessfrog.com is 2753. My BF is 38%

I have MFP set to lose 2 lbs a week. They have me at a goal of 1360 net, and I do eat back my exercise calories. Am I eating enough? TIA.

Icequeens advice is good, if you feel ok on 1360+ exercise and are losing your goal stick with it, but when you get to below 75lbs to goal you should change to 1.5/week. If you are always hungry / dont feel its enough then maybe go up an activity level as based on fitness frogs numbers 1753 would lose you 2lbs - I would think running round after kids all day is not only lightly active.

For comparison, my TDEE is 2652, BF 39%, BMR 1576 so pretty similar numbers. I eat 1950 total / 1550 net and lose 1.5 most weeks, so to lose 2 I would need to eat 1700.

leopard_barbie

Bella, I see so many females wanting to put lifting weights on hold while they focus on diet and cardio. But you're doing yourself a huge disservice by doing that...

If I may make a suggestion to you it is to increase your muscle or lean body mass... While I KNOW that cardio gives an immediate reward by showing BIG calorie burn numbers in a short time, the reality is, it only keeps your metabolism revved up for a few hours after you exercise and then quickly drops off.

On the obverse, weight lifting, while it does not give the immediate gratification of the high calorie burn that we like to see when we do cardio, it does give us things that cardio just can not do:

1) as we age, we loose muscle mass, period. This is especially true for females who start out with lower muscle mass to begin with. The loss in muscle mass, especially as a female is one of the reasons it is so hard for us to loose weight as we age. Lower muscle mass = lower BMR, higher muscle mass = higher BMR.
2)muscle makes us stronger, leaner and more shapely- it helps to define us rather than just peel away a layer of fat.. It helps accentuate all the right places and whittle in all the wrong ones! (I'm not incinuating spot reduction here, just more shape)
3)over the course of a day people with higher composition of muscle WILL burn more calories doing everything they do in a day(including sleeping) and in the long run burn more calories in a day, with typical exercise, than a female that only does cardio for 60 minutes without strength training. Given two women who are the same in weight, height and bone structure with the only exception being the amount of muscle mass, meaning one lifts weights and the other does not... The one that lifts will have more muscle, will be able to eat more, and will more than likely weigh more but wear smaller clothes, be stronger, more confident, walk taller, look and BE leaner with a tighter body.
4)while cardio, potentially, burns a lot of calories, did you know it uses whatever the most readily available energy source your body is willing to give up to fuel it, including MUSCLE! So, when you see that 450 calorie burn, remember,some of that IS muscle mass! The body does not typically begin to use fat stores as energy until 20-30 minutes into a work out.
5) muscle helps prevent your body from adjusting to a lower calorie consumption as you will be able to eat more because your metabolism will naturally be at a higher state more consistently. (higher BMR)
If you haven't been able to figure out what I am suggesting...
Please do not delay in adding strength training. After you feel comfortable learning/practicing strength training exercises, don't be afraid to step away from the "girly" size weights and truly dig into picking up some of the bad boy weights. We, as females, will never, unless a feak of nature or using performance enhancing supplements, become big and bulky. Trust me, I lift heavy 3-4 times/week and have yet to mistaken myself in the mirror for Arnold Schwartzenegger, lol.

All the best to you on your journey!

^^^^ amazing post.
Start lifting ASAP, this will help prevent muscle loss and increase the amount of calories you burn even at rest, you will lose more inches and generally look and feel better.
By doing cardio only, you are effectively burning off some of your muscle mass so you burn less cals and eventually the loss will slow down and you end up 'skinnyfat'.

^^^^love these posts, thanks so much guys!

cherrybomb_77

Icequeens advice is good, if you feel ok on 1360+ exercise and are losing your goal stick with it, but when you get to below 75lbs to goal you should change to 1.5/week. If you are always hungry / dont feel its enough then maybe go up an activity level as based on fitness frogs numbers 1753 would lose you 2lbs - I would think running round after kids all day is not only lightly active.

For comparison, my TDEE is 2652, BF 39%, BMR 1576 so pretty similar numbers. I eat 1950 total / 1550 net and lose 1.5 most weeks, so to lose 2 I would need to eat 1700.

Haha, yeah, I feel like I sit a lot, but then again, with 4 kids, I'm up and down constantly, and of course all day I'm cleaning and picking up after them. We're out and about frequently, too.

Anyway, thank you everyone, I think I'll try to stick with the 1360 MFP wants me to do for awhile and see how that goes (I've just been kind of doing my own thing previously), if I have trouble losing I'll try increasing and see if it helps. I feel a little hungry at 1360 but mostly okay, I think it seems like how I feel has more to do with eating lots of protein and veggies in several smaller than my calories alone, so I'll try to focus on that.