Advice on barbell lifts (squats, mainly)

dlwyatt82

Hey all,

Up until last week, I'd been lifting weights with dumbbells in my home. I just joined a gym so I could switch over to using barbells, and went in for the freebie training session they offered with the membership.

I'm pretty sure my form on the squats was horrible. I didn't feel like I was going down far enough (though it's hard to tell without seeing it from the side), and my balance kept pitching forward the lower I got, moving the weight onto my toes instead of heels. The trainer didn't seem to care; when I mentioned it, he said that as long as my back didn't round, the rest didn't matter. Obviously I can't rely on him to help me fix the problem.

Anyhow, I've been practicing the motion with no weight in my home, and I think it comes down to an ankle flexibility issue. If I keep my feet at roughly shoulder width and point them mostly forward, I reach a point where I just can't bend anymore at the ankle, and that's as low as I'll go without losing balance. I can, however, go right down below parallel if I widen my stance about another 3 inches, and point my feet out to almost a 45 degree angle (45 degrees from forward, nearly a 90 degree angle between the feet). Would I be screwing up the exercise or risking injury if I did it that way with weight? If so, how would you recommend increasing the range of motion in my ankles?

Also, I'm curious, and the trainer had no good answer for this. When you're using a power rack and you find that you can't complete a squat, how are you supposed to bail onto the safety bars? Do you just lower yourself right to the floor until the rack catches the weight, or do you need to somehow drop it? It seems very tricky from the back squat, since my arms are already pinned in an awkward position (I need to work on my shoulder flexibility a bit as well).

One other thing, while I'm thinking about it. I've been following the StrongLifts 5x5 program. The trainer recommended mixing in some incline bench presses instead of sticking to only the flat bench. Any opinions on this? Is it alright to stick with StrongLifts as it's written, or will I be ignoring some portion of the chest?

Willbenchforcupcakes

I have somewhat stiff ankles as well, and my squat form is feet slightly wider than shoulders, feet slightly turned out. I go far enough below parallel that I feel the activation of my hamstrings and glutes. I figure if several physios over the years have liked my form, it must be pretty good, as well, my trainer likes my form.

As for having to bail on a lift, my trainer told me if it's a matter of not being able to press back up, to lower down until the safety bars catch the weight, and if it's more a falling situation, to try and fall forward.

As for the chest press, the classic bench press is good, changing the incline does change which part of your pecs takes most of the stress, but isn't truly needed in a balanced program .... with that said I do enjoy switching things up.

ninerbuff

Hey all,

Up until last week, I'd been lifting weights with dumbbells in my home. I just joined a gym so I could switch over to using barbells, and went in for the freebie training session they offered with the membership.

I'm pretty sure my form on the squats was horrible. I didn't feel like I was going down far enough (though it's hard to tell without seeing it from the side), and my balance kept pitching forward the lower I got, moving the weight onto my toes instead of heels. The trainer didn't seem to care; when I mentioned it, he said that as long as my back didn't round, the rest didn't matter. Obviously I can't rely on him to help me fix the problem.

Probably wasn't a "trainer" but an employee taking you through the motions. If it were a trainer...................don't hire him.

Anyhow, I've been practicing the motion with no weight in my home, and I think it comes down to an ankle flexibility issue. If I keep my feet at roughly shoulder width and point them mostly forward, I reach a point where I just can't bend anymore at the ankle, and that's as low as I'll go without losing balance. I can, however, go right down below parallel if I widen my stance about another 3 inches, and point my feet out to almost a 45 degree angle (45 degrees from forward, nearly a 90 degree angle between the feet). Would I be screwing up the exercise or risking injury if I did it that way with weight? If so, how would you recommend increasing the range of motion in my ankles?

I squat with toes pointed out. The key is to make sure your knees travel the same direction your toes are pointed. And don't let your knees buckle in when you ascend.

Also, I'm curious, and the trainer had no good answer for this. When you're using a power rack and you find that you can't complete a squat, how are you supposed to bail onto the safety bars? Do you just lower yourself right to the floor until the rack catches the weight, or do you need to somehow drop it? It seems very tricky from the back squat, since my arms are already pinned in an awkward position (I need to work on my shoulder flexibility a bit as well).

Either way. The safety bars are there for that reason. I've lowered them slow and "dumped" them at one time or another.

One other thing, while I'm thinking about it. I've been following the StrongLifts 5x5 program. The trainer recommended mixing in some incline bench presses instead of sticking to only the flat bench. Any opinions on this? Is it alright to stick with StrongLifts as it's written, or will I be ignoring some portion of the chest?

Personally I take incline bench over flat bench. Flat bench hurts my shoulder where incline doesn't.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

docktorfokse

My ankle flexibility is a behemoth issue on my squats and deadlifts because I have under-developed calf tendons. The best thing to do for it is to work on calf stretches to close the angle formed by your shin and foot, and in the meantime keep a wide stance on your squats. Do you naturally walk on your toes, by any chance?

malins2

squat with toes pointed out. The key is to make sure your knees travel the same direction your toes are pointed. And don't let your knees buckle in when you ascend.

Agree, that's how I (try to)do it too.

malins2

Another thing, make sure you have good shoes for lifting. When they differ to much in height between toe and heel I tend to get the weight on my toes instead, so try to find shoes with zero drop or at least very little.

Elizabeth_C34

I have really really long thigh bones, and I have the same issue with the weight not staying on my heels easily. I found that the best fix is doing exactly what ninerbuff said about pointing the toes slightly outward. I also tend to do much better with a sumo style foot position than a traditional one. This is where the feet are wide apart with the toes pointed slightly outward.

RikanSoulja

Youtube a set of videos called "So you think you can squat" A lot of good instructions

tigersword

Hey all,

Up until last week, I'd been lifting weights with dumbbells in my home. I just joined a gym so I could switch over to using barbells, and went in for the freebie training session they offered with the membership.

I'm pretty sure my form on the squats was horrible. I didn't feel like I was going down far enough (though it's hard to tell without seeing it from the side), and my balance kept pitching forward the lower I got, moving the weight onto my toes instead of heels. The trainer didn't seem to care; when I mentioned it, he said that as long as my back didn't round, the rest didn't matter. Obviously I can't rely on him to help me fix the problem.

Anyhow, I've been practicing the motion with no weight in my home, and I think it comes down to an ankle flexibility issue. If I keep my feet at roughly shoulder width and point them mostly forward, I reach a point where I just can't bend anymore at the ankle, and that's as low as I'll go without losing balance. I can, however, go right down below parallel if I widen my stance about another 3 inches, and point my feet out to almost a 45 degree angle (45 degrees from forward, nearly a 90 degree angle between the feet). Would I be screwing up the exercise or risking injury if I did it that way with weight? If so, how would you recommend increasing the range of motion in my ankles?

Also, I'm curious, and the trainer had no good answer for this. When you're using a power rack and you find that you can't complete a squat, how are you supposed to bail onto the safety bars? Do you just lower yourself right to the floor until the rack catches the weight, or do you need to somehow drop it? It seems very tricky from the back squat, since my arms are already pinned in an awkward position (I need to work on my shoulder flexibility a bit as well).

One other thing, while I'm thinking about it. I've been following the StrongLifts 5x5 program. The trainer recommended mixing in some incline bench presses instead of sticking to only the flat bench. Any opinions on this? Is it alright to stick with StrongLifts as it's written, or will I be ignoring some portion of the chest?

NEVER squat with toes pointing forward, that's the fastest way to ruin your knees. Feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed out roughly 30 degrees, and make sure to shove your knees out on the way down so they end up directly over your toes. The problem isn't ankle flexibility, it's the fact that when you point your toes forward, it pushes your knees in and twists them. Leads to knee damage long term, but the immediate effect is the knees get in the way of the torso, preventing you from going all the way down.

IronSmasher

Sumo squats is an option, and you should have your toes pointing where they feel natural, and your knees don't twist or buckle.

Trainers (you know, real ones, with qualifications and registration and that) use heel wedges for correction with people with ankle flexibility issues. You may find it helps to have your heels on a couple of spare weight plates, practise with no weight obviously.
Progression can be made onto a rolled up towel, then less and less folds in the towel until you're flat.

For the range of motion, with no weight, practise your squats and place a bench behind you, setting up the height so that your butt just barely kisses the bench.
Now for your safety bars, now that you've set your range, get an empty bar and check that the safety bars are as high as they can be without you dinking them each rep. Now if your knee buckles, you get cramp, get tired, dizzy, whatever, they're going catch the bar nice and easy for you. There's no point having to struggle with the weight right down to the floor when you're trying to get rid of it.

dlwyatt82

Cool, thanks everyone!

To answer a couple of the questions from the replies:

I do tend to walk with my weight forward on my toes when I'm going slow (and my stride is shorter). When my stride opens up, my weight lands on the heel first.

I have a pair of high-top Converse shoes that I use while lifting. I read somewhere (probably on the StrongLifts site) that they're good for this purpose because they don't have any squishy support in the soles.

IronSmasher

I have really really long thigh bones, and I have the same issue with the weight not staying on my heels easily. I found that the best fix is doing exactly what ninerbuff said about pointing the toes slightly outward. I also tend to do much better with a sumo style foot position than a traditional one. This is where the feet are wide apart with the toes pointed slightly outward.

Raising the heels and/or using the lower bar position on the trapezius and deltoid like a powerlifter is recommended for long limbs or rigid ankles

Elizabeth_C34

I have really really long thigh bones, and I have the same issue with the weight not staying on my heels easily. I found that the best fix is doing exactly what ninerbuff said about pointing the toes slightly outward. I also tend to do much better with a sumo style foot position than a traditional one. This is where the feet are wide apart with the toes pointed slightly outward.

Raising the heels and/or using the lower bar position on the trapezius and deltoid like a powerlifter is recommended for long limbs or rigid ankles

I always do low bar squat as well. This was a huge issue for me when I started. High bar position was almost impossible for me to do correctly.

TrainingWithTonya

Hey all,

Up until last week, I'd been lifting weights with dumbbells in my home. I just joined a gym so I could switch over to using barbells, and went in for the freebie training session they offered with the membership.

I'm pretty sure my form on the squats was horrible. I didn't feel like I was going down far enough (though it's hard to tell without seeing it from the side), and my balance kept pitching forward the lower I got, moving the weight onto my toes instead of heels. The trainer didn't seem to care; when I mentioned it, he said that as long as my back didn't round, the rest didn't matter. Obviously I can't rely on him to help me fix the problem.

This is one of the reasons I hate "trainers" at gyms. (And I can say that because I've been one for 16 years! ) There's no requirement for degrees or certifications for someone to call themselves a trainer. I found that out the hard way when I hired my first trainer. He wasn't certified or educated in any way. So I fired him and took the certification myself. Wow, suddenly I could get results! Since that first certification, though, I've also learned that certification alone isn't a guarantee of education. I learned so much more in my bachelors program that I won't even recommend someone as a trainer with just a certification anymore. Most certifications don't cover all of the aspects of biomechanics and kinesiology that a trainer really needs, so if you are looking for a trainer to help you in person, I highly recommend calling your local university and seeing if they have an exercise physiology department. If so, as them for a recommendation for a trainer because they will recommend one of their students who has been trained in proper body movement.

Anyhow, I've been practicing the motion with no weight in my home, and I think it comes down to an ankle flexibility issue. If I keep my feet at roughly shoulder width and point them mostly forward, I reach a point where I just can't bend anymore at the ankle, and that's as low as I'll go without losing balance. I can, however, go right down below parallel if I widen my stance about another 3 inches, and point my feet out to almost a 45 degree angle (45 degrees from forward, nearly a 90 degree angle between the feet). Would I be screwing up the exercise or risking injury if I did it that way with weight? If so, how would you recommend increasing the range of motion in my ankles?

First, look to see if your gym offers a Pilates class. If so, take it. That will help your ankle flexibility to help you improve your range of motion. Second, check your footwear while lifting. Some lifting shoes will limit your flexibility and may be part of the problem. Third, stick your butt out while squatting. You aren't supposed to bend the ankle so much that your knees go out past your toes because it causes the center of gravity of the body to move too far forward and will cause balance issues, plus it is increasing the shearing forces on the knee and risking injury if you go too heavy too fast. Sticking your butt out will help. I tell my clients to imagine you're on a construction site and have to use the portapotty. Gross, I know, but when you have to go and not touch anything, you're pretty close to proper squat form. Most people don't have to go down to below thighs parallel to the floor, because going further actually increases those shearing forces on the knees too. But if you wish to because you are participating in an activity where you need to build strength in that low range of motion (IE: Wrestlers) then please be careful and progress slowly to doing that range of motion. Do just like you would with progressing with weight and start with where you are comfortable and progressively increase the range of motion by no more then 10% a week. When you are increasing ROM, don't increase weight on that workout. So, say you lift 3 days a week, do one workout with your heaviest weights and normal range of motion, then the second workout of the week should be with your lightest weights (which will make it a high rep workout so not the 5x5) and the largest range of motion you can do. The 3rd workout would be a moderate weight and only barely trying to go over your normal range of motion. As you progress, you will then see increases in the weight you can do each type of workout with.

Also, the modification of the squat you are currently trying is a Plie` Squat or a Sumo Squat. The wider you go with your feet (yes, some people can turn the legs completely out to the side) the more you focus on your adductor (inner thigh) muscles. Personally, I do both a traditional squat and a Plie` squat (along with several other leg exercises) because I want to hit all of the leg muscles. The more variations you do, the more well shaped and defined the muscles will be. So, my recommendation would be to do some of each.

Also, I'm curious, and the trainer had no good answer for this. When you're using a power rack and you find that you can't complete a squat, how are you supposed to bail onto the safety bars? Do you just lower yourself right to the floor until the rack catches the weight, or do you need to somehow drop it? It seems very tricky from the back squat, since my arms are already pinned in an awkward position (I need to work on my shoulder flexibility a bit as well).

I was taught to drop the arms and walk forward. Ideally, though, if you are doing max lifts where you may need to bail, you should be using 2 spotters.

One other thing, while I'm thinking about it. I've been following the StrongLifts 5x5 program. The trainer recommended mixing in some incline bench presses instead of sticking to only the flat bench. Any opinions on this? Is it alright to stick with StrongLifts as it's written, or will I be ignoring some portion of the chest?

Personally, I do straight bench, incline bench, and decline bench. The more angles you hit the muscles from, the better. They will help build strength and definition in the muscle so that you look more well balanced and you have strength for daily activities in multiple ranges of motion.

DaveRCF

My suspicion is that with knees in front of toes you are asking too much from your ankles in terms of flexibility. It probably has nothing to do with ankle flexibility unless you have suffered an injury in the past. The best thing to do is to have somebody video your form and then to review. It is amazing how much you can learn from this.

Fire the trainer and request a trainer who has a specific interest and knowledge in barbell lifting. Many trainers do not.

dlwyatt82

I'm not actually hiring a trainer; I was just taking advantage of what the gym offered when I joined last week. With a baby on the way and going from two incomes down to one, finances are a little too uncertain to be spending a couple hundred bucks a month on a trainer right now.

dlwyatt82

I was taught to drop the arms and walk forward. Ideally, though, if you are doing max lifts where you may need to bail, you should be using 2 spotters.

I'm still very early in the program and the weight isn't very challenging yet, but at some point, it's going to happen. I'll try to find a partner to work out with at some point, but for now, it's me and the power racks.

DaveRCF

I'm still very early in the program and the weight isn't very challenging yet, but at some point, it's going to happen. I'll try to find a partner to work out with at some point, but for now, it's me and the power racks.
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You should be able to get around using a spotter. Having the luxury of 1 spotter, let alone 2, is sometimes not realistic.
Squat in the power rack with the safety pins set at the right height if you get stuck and need to bail.

For the bench press, you can do this fairly safely in the power rack, again, with the safety pins set at the right height (just below the height of your chest).

Toddrific

I've had problems with my ankles and the above mentioned ideas seem to work a bit. I find it's a bit easier to do a front squat or goblet squat. I think they may work different muscles though.

dlwyatt82

I'm still very early in the program and the weight isn't very challenging yet, but at some point, it's going to happen. I'll try to find a partner to work out with at some point, but for now, it's me and the power racks.

You should be able to get around using a spotter. Having the luxury of 1 spotter, let alone 2, is sometimes not realistic.
Squat in the power rack with the safety pins set at the right height if you get stuck and need to bail.

For the bench press, you can do this fairly safely in the power rack, again, with the safety pins set at the right height (just below the height of your chest).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about bench presses yet. I asked the guy if I could roll a bench over to a power rack when I'm doing that, and he looked at me like I was crazy. Mentioned that many of their benches are bolted down anyway. Anyhow, I have a lot of time before they get challenging enough to need a spotter. At my last workout on the StrongLifts schedule, I was only up to 80 pounds, but with the trainer spotting, I did a few sets of 185 for the hell of it. My chest strength is pretty imbalanced right now; was doing a lot of push-ups while I weighed 350+.