Deadlifts and weight belts = poor form?

ilovedeadlifts

I use anything available to help me push more weight around. So that my lighter/unassisted/raw/curtchless end up getting heavier as well. Used to have to wear a belt for deadlifting 2 plates a side, now i dont belt up till 405-495.

This.
If I can put something on and lift more weight with it, and get stronger, then I'm going to take advantage of it.

I'm not saying to wear a belt while you're pulling 225 for sets of 5. But when you're pulling over 90% (probably even 80) you should have a belt on.

oats4breakfast

I use anything available to help me push more weight around. So that my lighter/unassisted/raw/curtchless end up getting heavier as well. Used to have to wear a belt for deadlifting 2 plates a side, now i dont belt up till 405-495.

Agreed. Just like lifting more with squat shoes helps my "shoeless" squats.
So long as we're strengthening our core and not relying 100% on a belt, then using a belt is beneficial. (safety and increased strength).
If we're using a belt as soon as we walk into the gym - then that's a bit ridiculous.

It's the same as grip. I won't go to a mixed grip until it starts getting higher as it will help build my grip strength too. When it gets heavier, I absolutely have to mix grip. Straps are a crutch - unless we're doing 4 or more time our BW for prizes, otherwise we should be able to hold on to what we pick up.
Belts are only a crutch if used improperly.......... and a belt is something thick that is 4" all the way around. Not those silly ones that are only big at the back only. I'm not sure what that is. A waste of money ?

ilovedeadlifts

and a belt is something thick that is 4" all the way around. Not those silly ones that are only big at the back only. I'm not sure what that is. A waste of money ?

Another way for Gold's Gym to make money off of crappy equipment.

I got one when I first started lifting. I still use it for benching because it's so narrow it allows me to get in position without too much work. But overall, they don't offer much support

JNick77

and a belt is something thick that is 4" all the way around. Not those silly ones that are only big at the back only. I'm not sure what that is. A waste of money ?

Another way for Gold's Gym to make money off of crappy equipment.

I got one when I first started lifting. I still use it for benching because it's so narrow it allows me to get in position without too much work. But overall, they don't offer much support

I actually just got myself an Inzer 10mm Lever Belt. It's so damn nice. I was able to wear it effectively out of the box with no real break-in. Well, once I figured out the best spot for me to attach the lever that is.

oats4breakfast

and a belt is something thick that is 4" all the way around. Not those silly ones that are only big at the back only. I'm not sure what that is. A waste of money ?

Another way for Gold's Gym to make money off of crappy equipment.

I got one when I first started lifting. I still use it for benching because it's so narrow it allows me to get in position without too much work. But overall, they don't offer much support

I actually just got myself an Inzer 10mm Lever Belt. It's so damn nice. I was able to wear it effectively out of the box with no real break-in. Well, once I figured out the best spot for me to attach the lever that is.

I'm waiting for a Best Belts Athlete in rust - single prong. Can't wait!! Maybe I'll PR out of the box
Up until now, I was just borrowing a friends. Figured should get my own. His was also 2 prong 14+mm and it took two of us to get me out of it LOL.

kjerstenkipp

a recovering power lifter

so he lost all drive and awesomeness?

Nope...still awesome but old LOL...he still lifts but not as heavy as he used to, getting old is a b... still love me a big ole power lifter

songbyrdsweet

You don't push your abs out against the belt (at least, you aren't supposed to do that.) A belt's true purpose is to support the Valsalva Maneuver. Even then, it's really only needed for max effort lifts, not supposed to be used every time you pick stuff up. I see the belt more as a backup harness while bungee jumping, it's not so much there to assist the movement, but for protection against a potential catastrophic collapse.

I don't even own a belt, because I'm nowhere near the point where I'd even consider needing one.

yes. During the valsalva, you're holding air in your stomach and pushing out against your belt to stabilize yourself.

@songbyrdsweet. It's not a crutch, it's safety. You eventually get to a point where you're just putting youself at risk. I can only pull in the mid 300s without a belt before my lower back starts feeling iffy. I can pull closer to 450 belted up. What do you think is going to benefit someones training more? The heavier lift.

. And I'm not even gonna get started on the lack of understanding about how gear works.

See above, I said it should be used for max or near-max lifting, not for everyday training.

My understanding of how gear works is accurate regardless of whether my OPINION on it differs from yours.

songbyrdsweet

I've never lifted for reps with a belt, only for max testing. It helps with the valsalva maneuver. Other than that, it becomes a crutch. There's no need for it!

How does it become a crutch? I guess knee wraps are a crutch too?

Because then you aren't relying on your own abdominal wall to create pressure to support your spine. Anything that adds bounce/support/resistance against the weight can become a crutch. Personally I have always lifted raw, no point in wearing a 20-ply denim shirt that pulls my arms up for me when I'm benching.

How much do you lift raw? There is "raw" powerlifting and I'm fairly certain they allow belts in the competition. Wearing a weight belt for heavy singles, doubles, and triples is not the same as wearing a bench shirt. Bench shirts allow you to bench more weight than you can normally. I am no stronger with my belt on that I am without it; I just tend to walk away from the lifting session with less of the "bad" soreness. My form doesn't change with the belt either... If form is changing with a belt on then somebody is doing something wrong.

Reading comprehension in this thread is poor.

I said it can BECOME a crutch. This statement was in addition to my previous statement that weight belts should be used for max or near-maximal lifts rather than everyday training when you're repping out DLs. If you are 'bad' sore without a belt, it means your form is most likely **** and your belt has become a crutch, which is a perfect example of why you shouldn't lift with it constantly. You should be using the V. maneuver to support your spine on your own.

musclebuilder

I've never lifted for reps with a belt, only for max testing. It helps with the valsalva maneuver. Other than that, it becomes a crutch. There's no need for it!

How does it become a crutch? I guess knee wraps are a crutch too?

Because then you aren't relying on your own abdominal wall to create pressure to support your spine. Anything that adds bounce/support/resistance against the weight can become a crutch. Personally I have always lifted raw, no point in wearing a 20-ply denim shirt that pulls my arms up for me when I'm benching.

How much do you lift raw? There is "raw" powerlifting and I'm fairly certain they allow belts in the competition. Wearing a weight belt for heavy singles, doubles, and triples is not the same as wearing a bench shirt. Bench shirts allow you to bench more weight than you can normally. I am no stronger with my belt on that I am without it; I just tend to walk away from the lifting session with less of the "bad" soreness. My form doesn't change with the belt either... If form is changing with a belt on then somebody is doing something wrong.

Reading comprehension in this thread is poor.

I said it can BECOME a crutch. This statement was in addition to my previous statement that weight belts should be used for max or near-maximal lifts rather than everyday training when you're repping out DLs. If you are 'bad' sore without a belt, it means your form is most likely **** and your belt has become a crutch, which is a perfect example of why you shouldn't lift with it constantly. You should be using the V. maneuver to support your spine on your own.

Good points sbs..If you read the work of Mcgill you see that to gain the max benefit from a belt you have to lift with poor technique which may point to the need for that lifter to take a look at his lifting technique..Just look at the work of Mcgill and we see the use of a belt can help increase stability but there is also decreased activation of some important core muscles..Eric Cessey said "It alters firing patterns such that the belt becomes a crutch, and important core musculature is not called upon to stabilize the spine"

I have not used a belt in a long time and I do plenty of max effort lifting. I currently focusing on natural means of increasing IAP and "stiffness"...But I agree with many in this thread and I feel belts have their place as they are shown to help increase stability and torso stiffness to help reduce risk of the spine buckling under very heavy loads.

songbyrdsweet

I've never lifted for reps with a belt, only for max testing. It helps with the valsalva maneuver. Other than that, it becomes a crutch. There's no need for it!

How does it become a crutch? I guess knee wraps are a crutch too?

Because then you aren't relying on your own abdominal wall to create pressure to support your spine. Anything that adds bounce/support/resistance against the weight can become a crutch. Personally I have always lifted raw, no point in wearing a 20-ply denim shirt that pulls my arms up for me when I'm benching.

How much do you lift raw? There is "raw" powerlifting and I'm fairly certain they allow belts in the competition. Wearing a weight belt for heavy singles, doubles, and triples is not the same as wearing a bench shirt. Bench shirts allow you to bench more weight than you can normally. I am no stronger with my belt on that I am without it; I just tend to walk away from the lifting session with less of the "bad" soreness. My form doesn't change with the belt either... If form is changing with a belt on then somebody is doing something wrong.

Reading comprehension in this thread is poor.

I said it can BECOME a crutch. This statement was in addition to my previous statement that weight belts should be used for max or near-maximal lifts rather than everyday training when you're repping out DLs. If you are 'bad' sore without a belt, it means your form is most likely **** and your belt has become a crutch, which is a perfect example of why you shouldn't lift with it constantly. You should be using the V. maneuver to support your spine on your own.

Good points sbs..If you read the work of Mcgill you see that to gain the max benefit from a belt you have to lift with poor technique which may point to the need for that lifter to take a look at his lifting technique..Just look at the work of Mcgill and we see the use of a belt can help increase stability but there is also decreased activation of some important core muscles..Eric Cessey said "It alters firing patterns such that the belt becomes a crutch, and important core musculature is not called upon to stabilize the spine"

I have not used a belt in a long time and I do plenty of max effort lifting. I currently focusing on natural means of increasing IAP and "stiffness"...But I agree with many in this thread and I feel belts have their place as they are shown to help increase stability and torso stiffness to help reduce risk of the spine buckling under very heavy loads.

Exactly. It is used for safety, not training.

I got up to squatting 205 and DLing 225 weighing in at 130, not too shabby without any gear. :P

ilovedeadlifts

I said it can BECOME a crutch. This statement was in addition to my previous statement that weight belts should be used for max or near-maximal lifts rather than everyday training when you're repping out DLs. If you are 'bad' sore without a belt, it means your form is most likely **** and your belt has become a crutch, which is a perfect example of why you shouldn't lift with it constantly. You should be using the V. maneuver to support your spine on your own.

Lots of people who lift heavy are still going to use it in daily training. Not just for near-maximal lifts.
Most of the guys at westside belt up for their Dynamic Effort days which is using sub-maximal weight and moving it with maximal force. So these guys are using anywhere from 45-70% plus band tension. That's not maximal but you still belt up for it for safety.
I understand that you might not achieve the same activation of your abdominals, that's why you have assistance work.

As far as it being a "crutch". Shoes are a crutch for running. You clearly can't run a marathon barefoot the way you could with shoes, but guess what, they're allowed equipment, so people take advantage of their use. Same situation here. Why not wear equipment that you're allowed to wear in competition and take full advantage of it.
Train how you play.

JNick77

Exactly. It is used for safety, not training.

I got up to squatting 205 and DLing 225 weighing in at 130, not too shabby without any gear. :P

I think that was my whole point, safety. When you're talking safety the belt can not become a crutch.

I agree with your other comment on form too. If you form is bad it doesn't matter what you do and you will hurt yourself even with a belt.

I understand that you might not achieve the same activation of your abdominals, that's why you have assistance work.

YES! People overlook this aspect of training. There's more than just the main lifting movement. The guys at Westside do some Ab work everyday. I don't Deadlift to make sure I'm hitting my core, I deadlift to get stronger.

ilovedeadlifts

YES! People overlook this aspect of training. There's more than just the main lifting movement. The guys at Westside do some Ab work everyday. I don't Deadlift to make sure I'm hitting my core, I deadlift to get stronger.

this.
It all depends on your training. For a long time I didn't even train my abs and just squatted and deadlifted.

But to say that using a belt is a crutch or makes your abs not work hard is silly. I'm going to keep myself safe, and wear whatever I need to in order to lift more weight.
My programming has assistance work that lets me work my abs and other weak points.
The guys at westside wear a belt for the majority of their squats and deadlifts, and I dare anyone to question their core strength. Simmons can pretty much break your finger with his abdominal contractions.

If you aren't lifting enough to need a belt, chances are, you aren't lifting enough.

I guess wrist wraps or knee sleeves are a crutch too because they help people lift when they hurt?

JNick77

YES! People overlook this aspect of training. There's more than just the main lifting movement. The guys at Westside do some Ab work everyday. I don't Deadlift to make sure I'm hitting my core, I deadlift to get stronger.

this.
It all depends on your training. For a long time I didn't even train my abs and just squatted and deadlifted.

But to say that using a belt is a crutch or makes your abs not work hard is silly. I'm going to keep myself safe, and wear whatever I need to in order to lift more weight.
My programming has assistance work that lets me work my abs and other weak points.
The guys at westside wear a belt for the majority of their squats and deadlifts, and I dare anyone to question their core strength. Simmons can pretty much break your finger with his abdominal contractions.

If you aren't lifting enough to need a belt, chances are, you aren't lifting enough.

I guess wrist wraps or knee sleeves are a crutch too because they help people lift when they hurt?

And Louis is what like 58? LOL, he da' man.

Let's take today for instance. I did DE Squatting and then did a few sets of Reverse Lunges with a Barbell and then a few sets of RDL's. If nobody here as tried Reverse Lunges with an Olympic Bar across their back, I challenge you to try and it see how that in itself hits your core in addition to the targeted leg muscles. Same thing with RDL's, great for the posterior chain. After that I did a couple sets of weighted side bends. I think my core strength will be fine while using my belt.

I recently started wrapping my left knee on ME DL and Squatting days because it was really getting sore afterwards. Adding the stability to my knee has made my knee feel so much better after ME days.

oats4breakfast

@JNick77
Try some overhead squats. You may find that you can drop all the side bends and lunges.
...and yes, I've done reverse lunges with a weighted barbell or holding a couple of heavy ketttle bells. OHS is way better. It hits the whole body and just makes all other lifts and movements better. It's like the perfect exercise.

JNick77

@JNick77
Try some overhead squats. You may find that you can drop all the side bends and lunges.
...and yes, I've done reverse lunges with a weighted barbell or holding a couple of heavy ketttle bells. OHS is way better. It hits the whole body and just makes all other lifts and movements better. It's like the perfect exercise.

Yes, OHS's are pretty awesome. The reason I've chosen lunge variations and Bulgarian Split Squats is because I follow Joe DeFranco's variation of the Westside method and his method calls for a unilateral movement instead of a bilateral. Aside from strength training benefit there's benefit to just balance and coordination. The OHS's sound like a great "extra" lifting session day.