conflicting weigh-in results. Next step?
JustPeachy044
Posts: 770 Member
I just weighed in this morning at my fitness club and got conflicting results. Total body weight is 166.6lbs., down 4.6 lbs from May 19. My body fat percentage dropped from 36.5% to 36.4%. At first I was excited about these results. Then I looked at the analysis more closely and was disappointed. I have lost 2 lbs. of fat but 2.6 lbs of muscle. The coach said I am a bit dehydrated, at 46.5% body water, it should be higher.
So next steps should be....??? I already drink a ton of water (10-12 cups per day, plus workout water that I do not count), but I did not drink any overnight or this morning before weighing in. So I could have been dehydrated from simply not having water overnight. I had switched from coffee to tea, not always decaf. I may switch to just decaf and see if that helps hydration.
My bigger concern is the muscle loss. I work out 5-6 days per week, and I try to get enough calories, but I sometimes fall short. I usually eat 50%-75% of my exercise calories back, and I recently started calorie cycling. I have a protein smoothie every morning and a protein powder drink within 30 minutes of working out. I probably average 100-110 grams of protein a day.
In the past, I only focused on the total body weight, but I am really motivated to make healthy eating and exercise a lifestyle choice. I want to make sustainable changes so I can be a healthy LEAN weight. Helpful, tactful suggestions would be appreciated more than, "you dumb blockhead..." type statements (which unfortunately I have gotten in response to other posts). Thanks so much!
So next steps should be....??? I already drink a ton of water (10-12 cups per day, plus workout water that I do not count), but I did not drink any overnight or this morning before weighing in. So I could have been dehydrated from simply not having water overnight. I had switched from coffee to tea, not always decaf. I may switch to just decaf and see if that helps hydration.
My bigger concern is the muscle loss. I work out 5-6 days per week, and I try to get enough calories, but I sometimes fall short. I usually eat 50%-75% of my exercise calories back, and I recently started calorie cycling. I have a protein smoothie every morning and a protein powder drink within 30 minutes of working out. I probably average 100-110 grams of protein a day.
In the past, I only focused on the total body weight, but I am really motivated to make healthy eating and exercise a lifestyle choice. I want to make sustainable changes so I can be a healthy LEAN weight. Helpful, tactful suggestions would be appreciated more than, "you dumb blockhead..." type statements (which unfortunately I have gotten in response to other posts). Thanks so much!
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Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?0 -
bump0
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I would say ignore it and keep doing what your doing. Everything I've read says you always lose some mix of fat and muscle when you lose weight. You can't do certain things to lose only fat. You CAN do certain things to rebuild lost muscle and fend off what part of the losses you do have control over. So keep at it! Unless they put you in a bodpod the gym estimates are very, very rough and they can't really tell to that precision what you've lost anyway.
I wouldn't start eating more, based on this alone. The body doesn't really go into starvation mode until you're under maybe 5% body fat. Your metabolism will slow a little in response to calorie deficits but this is normal and temporary and slight.0 -
I've hit weird plateau's like that too. I've lost 36lbs so far and I have had a couple of check-ins where my numbers did the same thing......it looked like I was losing muscle in my overall loss.
I just always refocused my food and, for me, put an extra emphasis on getting more protein and making sure I was eating good recovery foods after work outs. And it always balanced out in the end. I think your coach is right....there are any number of factors it could be. For such small differences, I would just keep at it and see what your numbers looked like in a few weeks.0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/0 -
Great article Di3012..very informative. I always about losing muscle and always thought that it was simply muscle wasting like when you are sick for a long period of time. It seems that is the case. Thanks for the share..0
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So your body always burns a ratio of fat/carbs.
Anaerobic is of course total carbs, down to sleeping at about 25-30% carbs.
This is a decent indication you are undereating, at least to restore your glucose stores from the level of workout you are doing, or where in the day you do it.
During your intense cardio exercise (not lifting), or doing that fasted is even worse, your body uses first whatever is remaining of the 400-450 calories worth of carbs in the liver.
When that is running low, body still needs that for maintaining blood sugar levels, so the muscles go to stored glucose within them. That glucose can not be put into the bloodstream for other uses, only for those muscles.
So if your liver really has run low, and your body isn't converting or getting enough from the lactic acid for glucose and a few other slow minor sources, it will breakdown muscle to convert and use quickly for keeping blood sugar levels where they need to be. Not the muscle you are using, but some of it somewhere.
It's not much, but considering muscle provides about 600 cal worth of energy, doesn't take much to add up to a pound over time.
This is basically what happens to recreational marathon runners, or if you go out to fast. You've burned through your glucose stores (while fat is still being used of course), and in this endurance event, even the glucose stores in the muscles get depleted, and now you are doing total conversion of muscle to glucose while still burning fat.
This is a difficult transition in the body, hence "the wall" effect.
You can cause the same effect over many days of workouts. Workout 1 hr intense, don't eat enough carbs before the next workout, your stores finally are depleted after several days, and for even that last workout before a rest day, you could be burning a mere 100 cal worth of muscle, but that is 1/6 lb. And it can add up. 6 weeks 1 lb gone.
Now, what usually happens is the muscle burned is unneeded not only at that moment, but likely not needed in general.
Like many overweight folks who were kinda active at least, have big calves for moving around their weight.
As weight drops, is that extra muscle needed? No, so it shrinks until appropriate, some of that from conversion, or burn off.
Many folks start out with a LBM they could not realistically keep at goal weight. And it may be in the wrong places too.
But it really is a bummer to burn the muscle off early, when trying to lose fat mass.0 -
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
Wouldn't this statement in that article disagree with your statement?
"Normally, carbohydrates from your diet supply the types of sugar your body uses as its main source of energy."
And since I know this is blatantly false, because in avg day, the majority of your energy source is fat, but not during most exercise intensities, and not if you do long endurance training.
These articles are so funny, it's as if carbs are used first in their thinking before fat even comes into play, and just not true. This one has many incorrect points in it. And the author didn't even read his quoted source regarding gluconeogenesis.0 -
During your intense cardio exercise (not lifting), or doing that fasted is even worse, your body uses first whatever is remaining of the 400-450 calories worth of carbs in the liver.
When that is running low, body still needs that for maintaining blood sugar levels, so the muscles go to stored glucose within them. That glucose can not be put into the bloodstream for other uses, only for those muscles.
So if your liver really has run low, and your body isn't converting or getting enough from the lactic acid for glucose and a few other slow minor sources, it will breakdown muscle to convert and use quickly for keeping blood sugar levels where they need to be. Not the muscle you are using, but some of it somewhere.
In Body for Life, Bill Phillips originally had a very strong recommendation to do fasted cardio daily. Funny how things change.
Personally, I think if you're not a body builder or competitive athlete, the timing of carbs, etc. isn't largely important to us and is just overcomplicating things. Most of us drop all types of body tissue when we lose weight because we just go down to a fraction of our size overall, I think. Even blood volume shrinks, I think,and organs.0 -
In Body for Life, Bill Phillips originally had a very strong recommendation to do fasted cardio daily. Funny how things change.
Personally, I think if you're not a body builder or competitive athlete, the timing of carbs, etc. isn't largely important to us and is just overcomplicating things. Most of us drop all types of body tissue when we lose weight because we just go down to a fraction of our size overall, I think. Even blood volume shrinks, I think,and organs.
Actually, I've still seen it recommended for specific usage - just not intense mainly carb-burning level cardio.
It's usually estimated it takes about 30 min for your body to settle on the normal carb/fat ratio you'll keep using if you keep going, until then it's mainly carbs, or at least higher ratio then it will be once it settles.
So even folks that mistakenly believe in only working out in the "fat-burning zone", if only for 30 min, probably never actually get into it anyway. So they only thing they got was less calories burned overall.
But, if you could enter that 30 min and that zone already in fat-burning mode, then that's pretty good. You could actually move it on up into aerobic zone mode and do fine for probably up to 60 min.
It's going into that 30-60 min fasted and doing lactate threshold or anaerobic zone level stuff that'll backfire eventually.
And I've heard of so many in Spin class come in saying how hungry they are after an 11 am lunch, no snacks, and it's 6 pm. Unless they slept, they very likely went through a huge part of their liver glucose stores, and with the intensity of Spin classes, cause some problems.
I did the exact same thing to myself until I added another rest day. Because I did want to do it intense, but something had to give. And I knew full well what could happen, just didn't do the math to see I was doing it until as the OP said, you discovered LBM went down more/as much as fat went down, and I know my glucose stores were topped off and I was hydrated, so it wasn't that part of the LBM.0 -
I just weighed in this morning at my fitness club and got conflicting results. Total body weight is 166.6lbs., down 4.6 lbs from May 19. My body fat percentage dropped from 36.5% to 36.4%. At first I was excited about these results. Then I looked at the analysis more closely and was disappointed. I have lost 2 lbs. of fat but 2.6 lbs of muscle. The coach said I am a bit dehydrated, at 46.5% body water, it should be higher.
So next steps should be....??? I already drink a ton of water (10-12 cups per day, plus workout water that I do not count), but I did not drink any overnight or this morning before weighing in. So I could have been dehydrated from simply not having water overnight. I had switched from coffee to tea, not always decaf. I may switch to just decaf and see if that helps hydration.
My bigger concern is the muscle loss. I work out 5-6 days per week, and I try to get enough calories, but I sometimes fall short. I usually eat 50%-75% of my exercise calories back, and I recently started calorie cycling. I have a protein smoothie every morning and a protein powder drink within 30 minutes of working out. I probably average 100-110 grams of protein a day.
In the past, I only focused on the total body weight, but I am really motivated to make healthy eating and exercise a lifestyle choice. I want to make sustainable changes so I can be a healthy LEAN weight. Helpful, tactful suggestions would be appreciated more than, "you dumb blockhead..." type statements (which unfortunately I have gotten in response to other posts). Thanks so much!
Does your trainer have you on a weight training schedule (3X per week)? Are you lifting heavy? If not, you should probably get a different trainer. I generally don't think you need a trainer to show you how to do cardio. Weight training would be one way to prevent muscle loss. You could also try upping your protein intake a bit. The recommendations are usually for 1-1.5 g protein per lb of LBM. Also, you should be eating enough all together: 0.3-0.6 g fat per lb of goal body weight and at least 100 g carbs (unless you are trying to do a ketogenic diet). You say you're calorie cycling, but you may want to try carb cycling (not 100% sure about this, but some builders swear by it). The last recommendation might not be one you want to hear: lower your weekly weight loss goals. Either reduce cardio or increase calories. The slower you lose weight, the less muscle you are likely to lose.
Of course, some muscle loss is to be expected. It's unlikely that you will be able to get down to your goal weight without some loss in muscle mass. As long as you keep your protein up, diet reasonable, and do some weights, you should retain a decent amount of muscle. And it may be more important to lose fat than retain muscle (for many people it is).
Another thing to keep in mind is that your LBM or lean body mass (body weight-fat weight) is not only your muscles. It also includes your organs, which become enlarged when you are obese. So some of the loss in LBM will come from that. (I have no idea how significant this loss is relative to other loss, though.)0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
What a bizarre conjecture. I think it's been pretty well established that people lose muscle in addition to fat when dieting. If what you're claiming is true, then weight lifters could stop lifting when they get to their cutting phase until they get to 5% BF. Recent dieting studies focus on how to retain muscle (hence the protein and weight lifting suggestions).0 -
I've read that eating a late night snack of cottage cheese helps maintain muscle, since the casein protein in cottage cheese takes a while to be broken down and prevents your body from burning any of your own personal protein while asleep.
Lots of sources but here's a sample one:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/502304-what-are-the-benefits-of-cottage-cheese-before-bed/0 -
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
Wouldn't this statement in that article disagree with your statement?
"Normally, carbohydrates from your diet supply the types of sugar your body uses as its main source of energy."
And since I know this is blatantly false, because in avg day, the majority of your energy source is fat, but not during most exercise intensities, and not if you do long endurance training.
These articles are so funny, it's as if carbs are used first in their thinking before fat even comes into play, and just not true. This one has many incorrect points in it. And the author didn't even read his quoted source regarding gluconeogenesis.
Carbs are used for energy, that is what they are.
Any excess calories are stored as fat, that fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up. If a person consumes more than enough calories, that fat will not start to get burned due to there being enough calories taken in during that day.
Why do you think it contradicted my own view?0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
What a bizarre conjecture. I think it's been pretty well established that people lose muscle in addition to fat when dieting. If what you're claiming is true, then weight lifters could stop lifting when they get to their cutting phase until they get to 5% BF. Recent dieting studies focus on how to retain muscle (hence the protein and weight lifting suggestions).
Well as bizarre as it may seem, that is how the body actually works.
Weight lifters could not just stop lifting, their muscles would start to shrink. It is essential muscles are utilised in order to remain the size they are or to grow larger.
I have seen increasing numbers of posts whereby some people do not seem to understand that underusing muscles will result in theri shrinkage - it is true you know, take a look at a limb that has been in a plaster cast and see how much it shrinks due to not having been used.0 -
Great article Di3012..very informative. I always about losing muscle and always thought that it was simply muscle wasting like when you are sick for a long period of time. It seems that is the case. Thanks for the share..
More than welcome Jazzy
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I just weighed in this morning at my fitness club and got conflicting results. Total body weight is 166.6lbs., down 4.6 lbs from May 19. My body fat percentage dropped from 36.5% to 36.4%. At first I was excited about these results. Then I looked at the analysis more closely and was disappointed. I have lost 2 lbs. of fat but 2.6 lbs of muscle. The coach said I am a bit dehydrated, at 46.5% body water, it should be higher.
So next steps should be....??? I already drink a ton of water (10-12 cups per day, plus workout water that I do not count), but I did not drink any overnight or this morning before weighing in. So I could have been dehydrated from simply not having water overnight. I had switched from coffee to tea, not always decaf. I may switch to just decaf and see if that helps hydration.
My bigger concern is the muscle loss. I work out 5-6 days per week, and I try to get enough calories, but I sometimes fall short. I usually eat 50%-75% of my exercise calories back, and I recently started calorie cycling. I have a protein smoothie every morning and a protein powder drink within 30 minutes of working out. I probably average 100-110 grams of protein a day.
In the past, I only focused on the total body weight, but I am really motivated to make healthy eating and exercise a lifestyle choice. I want to make sustainable changes so I can be a healthy LEAN weight. Helpful, tactful suggestions would be appreciated more than, "you dumb blockhead..." type statements (which unfortunately I have gotten in response to other posts). Thanks so much!
I didn't look at our diary or anything. I do know if hey are using one of those scale or an electronic device, you must be well hydration in the 24 hours prior. I am told before I go into the measure to drink 8 glasses water the day before, plus one glass for every 2 ours I am awake is starting form the first glass when I wake.
Unless ou want to get retested, I would continue what ou are doing0 -
Carbs are used for energy, that is what they are.
Any excess calories are stored as fat, that fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up. If a person consumes more than enough calories, that fat will not start to get burned due to there being enough calories taken in during that day.
Why do you think it contradicted my own view?
Ohhhh, there is so much misconception there on how the body works. Number one, the carbs from what you ate don't float around in your body until they are either used, and then what, stored at night is your idea?
It's why your insulin goes up after you eat carbs, and large meals, and even protein somewhat. Your blood sugar can't be high, it's a problem, it strictly can NOT float around waiting for you to use them.
That turns on fat storage mode, and glucose store mode for that matter. So what glucose doesn't need to be stored, and what is not used for immediate efforts, is stored as fat - right then and there while the insulin is high.
Fat is burned all the time, and the majority of the time. Search Google for studies on "ratio carb fat burn" since you likely don't believe me anyway.
Here, since you appear to be a runner, here is a study for you regarding how to make your carb stores last as long as possible in a marathon by adjusting your pace and what you eat. And in this discussion of course, is the given fact that fat is burned the whole time, and more you can train your body to use it mainly, the better you can stretch your limited glucose stores.
This study's main focus is on other things, but you will see plenty of comments to come to a better understanding of how things work.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/582526-new-to-marathons-avoid-hitting-the-wall-calculator
Just go read some basic physiology sources, this isn't even questionable as to how that aspect of energy use happens.0 -
Well as bizarre as it may seem, that is how the body actually works.
Weight lifters could not just stop lifting, their muscles would start to shrink. It is essential muscles are utilised in order to remain the size they are or to grow larger.
I have seen increasing numbers of posts whereby some people do not seem to understand that underusing muscles will result in theri shrinkage - it is true you know, take a look at a limb that has been in a plaster cast and see how much it shrinks due to not having been used.
Muscle that has atrophied while rest of the body is doing nothing is very different than what he was referring to shows up in studies all the time - loss of LBM and muscle specifically if unused. Not atrophied, because these aren't exactly dieters that were like working out originally and then stopped, such they had muscle to atrophy.
These are overweight folks that kept to their normal routine, used their normal muscles they always used and therefore were built up, and proceeded to lose it as the weight came off.
Those that did resistance exercises managed to keep theirs.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/3/431.full#T2
"Skeletal muscle mass was preserved within the DA and DR groups (P > 0.1); however, a significant (P < 0.001) reduction in skeletal muscle mass was observed in the DO group (Table 2)."0 -
Carbs are used for energy, that is what they are.
Any excess calories are stored as fat, that fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up. If a person consumes more than enough calories, that fat will not start to get burned due to there being enough calories taken in during that day.
Why do you think it contradicted my own view?
Ohhhh, there is so much misconception there on how the body works. Number one, the carbs from what you ate don't float around in your body until they are either used, and then what, stored at night is your idea?
It's why your insulin goes up after you eat carbs, and large meals, and even protein somewhat. Your blood sugar can't be high, it's a problem, it strictly can NOT float around waiting for you to use them.
That turns on fat storage mode, and glucose store mode for that matter. So what glucose doesn't need to be stored, and what is not used for immediate efforts, is stored as fat - right then and there while the insulin is high.
Fat is burned all the time, and the majority of the time. Search Google for studies on "ratio carb fat burn" since you likely don't believe me anyway.
Here, since you appear to be a runner, here is a study for you regarding how to make your carb stores last as long as possible in a marathon by adjusting your pace and what you eat. And in this discussion of course, is the given fact that fat is burned the whole time, and more you can train your body to use it mainly, the better you can stretch your limited glucose stores.
This study's main focus is on other things, but you will see plenty of comments to come to a better understanding of how things work.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/582526-new-to-marathons-avoid-hitting-the-wall-calculator
Just go read some basic physiology sources, this isn't even questionable as to how that aspect of energy use happens.
Misconception? Oh is there indeed.
I do not appear to be a runner, I am a runner but running a marathon is not on my agenda - actually I have been involved in athletics for 38 years, I know full well how energy works thanks, the same way I knew how to lose my weight and get to my goal - oh that was something you once told me I would be highly unlikely to achieve on just 1200 calories per day.
I think it is you who needs to read the physiology sources Bales and then perhaps you will have a clearer understanding of how things work.
I never said anything floated around, especially not carbs, why do you think I said that? Carbs that are not used are converted and stored as fat, this fat is stored energy and will be burned when a person has used up their calories.
I cannot see why this is so difficult to understand.
Excess calories = stored fat.
Stored fat = energy reserves.
Energy reserves = used when calories are used up.
Hence the term - burning fat.
By the way, I never once said anything about carbs being stored at night, pleased stop changing my words about.0 -
True. Damage your knee and you can almost see the thigh muscles shrink while you're on crutches.I have seen increasing numbers of posts whereby some people do not seem to understand that underusing muscles will result in theri shrinkage0 -
I am not going to get into the whole exercise only uses fat debate. However, there are a number of factors to remember:
- measurements for BF% are not totally accurate and those and the scale can be impacted by water weight.
- depending on what method is used, water weight can show up as BF or LBM or a combo of both
- water weight can also be impacted by the amount of carbs you have recently ingested
- LBM includes everything except BF - which includes muscle, food weight, water weight, bone, organs, skin, including all the 'stuff' that is needed to support the fat that you have lost.
As you lose weight you will lose LBM. Does that mean you have lost muscle? Likely some, but not necessarily a lot.
Also, all of the above factors I noted will likely distort the readings so it is really hard to determine how much LBM you have actually lost, let alone how much muscle.
What you need to remember, is that you are doing all the right things to maintain as much muscle as possible (assuming your deficit is not too high). You seem like you are getting a good amount of protein and you are strengh training. So, the long and the short of it is....keep it up!!0 -
thank you to everyone for your input. lots of conflicting opinions, but it is good for me to see them. I appreciate most learning that LBM is not just muscle but everything that is not fat. I haven't given up, but from reading all the replies, especially the encouraging ones, I am feeling better!
As for the question about lifting, we do kettlebells at least 2x per week and there are a variety of weights to choose from in class. I am trying to lift heavier than I have been, and I can feel some soreness again this week. I will keep that up.
Thanks again everyone!0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
This article you quote is misleading because it is NOT talking about weight loss, it is addressing the more specific question of "when is muscle broken down" ie in what theoretical situation would that happen. You'll notice that the author specifically avoids mentioning anything about weight loss.
With very low calorie diets, if I understand it correctly, muscle is actually broken down preferentially to fat because doing that achieves two goals -- provides energy to offset the calorie deficit and decreases metabolic rate to minimize the number of calories required in the first place. The body is pretty amazing.
http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories/burning_calories/starvation.htm0 -
Any excess calories are stored as fat,
that fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up.
If a person consumes more than enough calories, that fat will not start to get burned due to there being enough calories taken in during that day.
"That fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up."
"that fat will not start to get burned due to their being enough calories taken in during that day."
Perhaps you meant something else. Both those state fat isn't going to be burned until you have used the calories you consumed that day. I'd love to know how those available calories float around until used, and then finally, if they are not, they are stored as fat from the sounds of it on a daily basis.
The excess part stored is true in a very timely manner, not stretched out all day, but you are storing and burning fat all day long. If you have high carb lunch at work and proceed to sit around, and have been sitting around all morning, you have very little need of that glucose to replenish stores, and it will be stored as fat pretty quickly there since there are no immediate energy needs for them. But, after the insulin drops back down, and before lunch too, you were burning mainly fat for energy just sitting there.
As to energy sources even during aerobic exercise, which is even more fat during rest. Ever seen a VO2max test and the VO2/VCO2 ratio's at the resting time before the test starts?
That is your RQ or RER, and determines what amount of energy is burned from fat and what from carbs. It is easily 70% fat unless you just had a meal that caused insulin spike and is giving you a bunch of carbs to burn off first, for the period of time before it's shuttle off to fat for storage.
http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960#s2Working muscles consume a mixture of metabolic substrates, and the relative contributions of fat and carbohydrate to this mixture dynamically depend on exercise intensity and the size of available glycogen reservoirs: Carbohydrates account for a greater proportion at higher intensities, while fat accounts for a greater proportion as available glycogen is depleted [24]. These trends reflect the significantly greater efficiency of carbohydrate relative to fat as a fuel for aerobic exercise, as discussed in greater detail in the Methods section:
And this is comment about getting up to the level of aerobic exercise. At rest before the exercise starts is even more fat burning.
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/esource.htmDuring exercise, we use a combination of these energy sources. At a high intensity the main source of energy is carbohydrate and at a low intensity fat is the predominate source. As there is a limit to the amount of carbohydrate that can be stored in the muscles, high intensity work can only be sustained for short periods. We have large stores of fat so low intensity work can be maintained for long periods.
Intensity and Energy Source
The following table, adapted from O'Neil (2001) [1], shows the relationship between exercise intensity (% of your Maximum Heart Rate) and the energy source (carbohydrate and fat).
Intensity % MHR % Carbohydrate % Fat
65 to 70 40 60
70 to 75 50 50
75 to 80 65 35
80 to 85 80 20
85 to 90 90 10
90 to 95 95 5
100 100 0
Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER)
Carbohydrates, fat and protein all play a part in energy metabolism and for a certain volume of oxygen the energy released will depend upon the energy source. It is possible to estimate which particular fuel (carbohydrate, fat or protein) is being oxidised by calculating the Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER). RER is the ratio of carbon dioxide (CO2) produced to oxygen (O2) consumed and is known as the Respiratory Quotient (RQ).
If carbohydrate is completely oxidised to CO2 and water (H2O) then the relationships is as follows:
6O2+ C6H12O6 » 6CO2 + 6H2O + 38ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate)
RER = 6CO2 ÷ 6O2 = 1
If fat is completely oxidised to CO 2 and H2O then the relationships is as follows:
C16H32O2 + 23O2 » 16CO2 + 16H2O + 129ATP
RER = 16CO2 ÷ 23O2 = 0.7
The RER for protein is approx. 0.8 but as it plays a very small part in energy metabolism, it is not important here. A value between 0.7 and 1.0 indicates a mixture of fat and carbohydrate as the energy source. A value greater than 1.0 indicates anaerobic respiration due to more CO2 being produced than O2 consumed.
Referenced Material
O'NEIL, T. et al. (2001) Indoor Rowing Training Guide. Concept 2 Ltd, p. 27
The reference for this page is:
MACKENZIE, B. (2001) Exercise Intensity and Energy Source
Page 538 - energy expenditure section into the next.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6CBrPX8oIX8C&lpg=PA539&ots=lS1Nz1hxww&dq=thermal equivalents of oxygen for the non protein rq&pg=PA538#v=onepage&q=thermal equivalents of oxygen for the non protein rq&f=false0 -
Any excess calories are stored as fat,
that fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up.
If a person consumes more than enough calories, that fat will not start to get burned due to there being enough calories taken in during that day.
"That fat will start to get burned when the calories consumed during that day have all been used up."
"that fat will not start to get burned due to their being enough calories taken in during that day."
Perhaps you meant something else. Both those state fat isn't going to be burned until you have used the calories you consumed that day. I'd love to know how those available calories float around until used, and then finally, if they are not, they are stored as fat from the sounds of it on a daily basis.
The excess part stored is true in a very timely manner, not stretched out all day, but you are storing and burning fat all day long. If you have high carb lunch at work and proceed to sit around, and have been sitting around all morning, you have very little need of that glucose to replenish stores, and it will be stored as fat pretty quickly there since there are no immediate energy needs for them. But, after the insulin drops back down, and before lunch too, you were burning mainly fat for energy just sitting there.
As to energy sources even during aerobic exercise, which is even more fat during rest. Ever seen a VO2max test and the VO2/VCO2 ratio's at the resting time before the test starts?
That is your RQ or RER, and determines what amount of energy is burned from fat and what from carbs. It is easily 70% fat unless you just had a meal that caused insulin spike and is giving you a bunch of carbs to burn off first, for the period of time before it's shuttle off to fat for storage.
http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960#s2Working muscles consume a mixture of metabolic substrates, and the relative contributions of fat and carbohydrate to this mixture dynamically depend on exercise intensity and the size of available glycogen reservoirs: Carbohydrates account for a greater proportion at higher intensities, while fat accounts for a greater proportion as available glycogen is depleted [24]. These trends reflect the significantly greater efficiency of carbohydrate relative to fat as a fuel for aerobic exercise, as discussed in greater detail in the Methods section:
And this is comment about getting up to the level of aerobic exercise. At rest before the exercise starts is even more fat burning.
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/esource.htmDuring exercise, we use a combination of these energy sources. At a high intensity the main source of energy is carbohydrate and at a low intensity fat is the predominate source. As there is a limit to the amount of carbohydrate that can be stored in the muscles, high intensity work can only be sustained for short periods. We have large stores of fat so low intensity work can be maintained for long periods.
Intensity and Energy Source
The following table, adapted from O'Neil (2001) [1], shows the relationship between exercise intensity (% of your Maximum Heart Rate) and the energy source (carbohydrate and fat).
Intensity % MHR % Carbohydrate % Fat
65 to 70 40 60
70 to 75 50 50
75 to 80 65 35
80 to 85 80 20
85 to 90 90 10
90 to 95 95 5
100 100 0
Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER)
Carbohydrates, fat and protein all play a part in energy metabolism and for a certain volume of oxygen the energy released will depend upon the energy source. It is possible to estimate which particular fuel (carbohydrate, fat or protein) is being oxidised by calculating the Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER). RER is the ratio of carbon dioxide (CO2) produced to oxygen (O2) consumed and is known as the Respiratory Quotient (RQ).
If carbohydrate is completely oxidised to CO2 and water (H2O) then the relationships is as follows:
6O2+ C6H12O6 » 6CO2 + 6H2O + 38ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate)
RER = 6CO2 ÷ 6O2 = 1
If fat is completely oxidised to CO 2 and H2O then the relationships is as follows:
C16H32O2 + 23O2 » 16CO2 + 16H2O + 129ATP
RER = 16CO2 ÷ 23O2 = 0.7
The RER for protein is approx. 0.8 but as it plays a very small part in energy metabolism, it is not important here. A value between 0.7 and 1.0 indicates a mixture of fat and carbohydrate as the energy source. A value greater than 1.0 indicates anaerobic respiration due to more CO2 being produced than O2 consumed.
Referenced Material
O'NEIL, T. et al. (2001) Indoor Rowing Training Guide. Concept 2 Ltd, p. 27
The reference for this page is:
MACKENZIE, B. (2001) Exercise Intensity and Energy Source
Page 538 - energy expenditure section into the next.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6CBrPX8oIX8C&lpg=PA539&ots=lS1Nz1hxww&dq=thermal equivalents of oxygen for the non protein rq&pg=PA538#v=onepage&q=thermal equivalents of oxygen for the non protein rq&f=false
Bales, if a person consumes enough calories for their daily activities, they have enough calories to burn, therefore any fat they have stored will not get burned off.
If, however, a person does not consume enough calories for their daily activites the body will have to get energy from somewhere and that "somewhere" is stored fat, this is what is meant by burning fat.
Not interested in reading long walls of text, not because I consider myself as a person that has nothing to learn, I just do not wish to read long walls of text. That is all.
Trying to baffle me with science will not work either.
If you do not agree with me, no problems, we must agree to disagree and move on.0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
This article you quote is misleading because it is NOT talking about weight loss, it is addressing the more specific question of "when is muscle broken down" ie in what theoretical situation would that happen. You'll notice that the author specifically avoids mentioning anything about weight loss.
With very low calorie diets, if I understand it correctly, muscle is actually broken down preferentially to fat because doing that achieves two goals -- provides energy to offset the calorie deficit and decreases metabolic rate to minimize the number of calories required in the first place. The body is pretty amazing.
http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories/burning_calories/starvation.htm
That is precisely why I stuck that article on this thread, because somebody was asking about muslce being burned.
I stick, steadfastedly by my fat burn explanation. Muscles will, however, begin to get burned when those stored fat levels in a person's body are at such a low level, they body needs energy from somewhere else and that somewhere else will then be muscle.0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
What a bizarre conjecture. I think it's been pretty well established that people lose muscle in addition to fat when dieting. If what you're claiming is true, then weight lifters could stop lifting when they get to their cutting phase until they get to 5% BF. Recent dieting studies focus on how to retain muscle (hence the protein and weight lifting suggestions).
Well as bizarre as it may seem, that is how the body actually works.
Weight lifters could not just stop lifting, their muscles would start to shrink. It is essential muscles are utilised in order to remain the size they are or to grow larger.
I have seen increasing numbers of posts whereby some people do not seem to understand that underusing muscles will result in theri shrinkage - it is true you know, take a look at a limb that has been in a plaster cast and see how much it shrinks due to not having been used.
Do you really not see how your answer contradicts what you stated previously? First you claim that your body will *only* use muscle when it has nearly no fat left. Now you claim that muscle can be shrunk due to "atrophy" (I don't think that word means what you think it means). I'm going to take a wild guess and say that nearly everyone who has experienced muscle "atrophy" had BF above 5%. Maybe you are going to try to now argue semantics over "muscle loss" versus "muscle shrinkage." I don't know. But "muscle loss" is parallel to fat loss-- when we experience fat loss, our fat cells shrink, not disappear.
I guess you know better than all the scientists out there who have and will continue to study how to minimize muscle loss during dieting. Too bad you weren't there to save them from chasing that unicorn that was muscle loss. And then they'd probably just confuse you with science.0 -
Your coach might disagree, but everything I've read says that if you don't get enough calories, your body *will* burn muscle to compensate. When our bodies are shocked by a sudden reduction of intake/increase in output, they can go into starvation mode. If you're really struggling to eat enough calories, you might need to scale back your exercise just a bit.
Also: are you eating enough fat?
No, the body will burn fat when it runs out of calories, this is why the body stores fat - stored fat is excess calories that have not been used up.
A sudden reduction in calories coupled with a sudden increase in activity will result in weightloss, not starvation mode.
Where did you read about burning muscle? The reason I ask is because muscle will only start to be eaten into when there is no other fuel source available - ie very, very low bodyfat - by this I mean 5% or below.
The following Livestrong article may be of interest to people regarding muscles being eaten into.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/554481-when-does-the-body-start-to-use-muscle-tissue-for-energy/
What a bizarre conjecture. I think it's been pretty well established that people lose muscle in addition to fat when dieting. If what you're claiming is true, then weight lifters could stop lifting when they get to their cutting phase until they get to 5% BF. Recent dieting studies focus on how to retain muscle (hence the protein and weight lifting suggestions).
Well as bizarre as it may seem, that is how the body actually works.
Weight lifters could not just stop lifting, their muscles would start to shrink. It is essential muscles are utilised in order to remain the size they are or to grow larger.
I have seen increasing numbers of posts whereby some people do not seem to understand that underusing muscles will result in theri shrinkage - it is true you know, take a look at a limb that has been in a plaster cast and see how much it shrinks due to not having been used.
Do you really not see how your answer contradicts what you stated previously? First you claim that your body will *only* use muscle when it has nearly no fat left. Now you claim that muscle can be shrunk due to "atrophy" (I don't think that word means what you think it means). I'm going to take a wild guess and say that nearly everyone who has experienced muscle "atrophy" had BF above 5%. Maybe you are going to try to now argue semantics over "muscle loss" versus "muscle shrinkage." I don't know. But "muscle loss" is parallel to fat loss-- when we experience fat loss, our fat cells shrink, not disappear.
I guess you know better than all the scientists out there who have and will continue to study how to minimize muscle loss during dieting. Too bad you weren't there to save them from chasing that unicorn that was muscle loss. And then they'd probably just confuse you with science.
Well it can be shrunk due to atrophy, that is not the same as being eaten into due to having no BF left.
I didn't say I knew better at all, you just said that.
Agree to disagree, we all have our opinions and we cannot agree with each other all of the time.
I find the way you pair together atrophy and burning muscle into the same category confusing - I never said anything of the sort, both are completely and utterly different.0
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