Cardio before strength

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Replies

  • AsrarHussain
    AsrarHussain Posts: 1,424 Member
    I always do weight training first if u do weights first u use ur glycogen and then when ur finished the weight training ur body does not have any left this is a best time to do cardio to burn the most fat
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Weights first, then cardio.

    Forget what your HRM is telling you, because an HRM is NOT designed for anaerobic activity, and is 100% inaccurate when it comes to strength training. It tells you you're burning more calories because the cardio first gets your heart rate up, and an HRM only knows "change in heart rate = calories burned." However, that only works for aerobic activity. Strength training is not aerobic. Changes in heart rate have absolutely NOTHING to do with calories burned with strength training.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Weights first, then cardio.

    Forget what your HRM is telling you, because an HRM is NOT designed for anaerobic activity, and is 100% inaccurate when it comes to strength training. It tells you you're burning more calories because the cardio first gets your heart rate up, and an HRM only knows "change in heart rate = calories burned." However, that only works for aerobic activity. Strength training in not aerobic. Changes in heart rate have absolutely NOTHING to do with calories burned with strength training.

    I agree Bro! I'm trying to see what Adzak means when he says it doesn't make any difference. I've seen him say that in a couple of these kinds of threads I'm I'm trying to understand his reasoning. You are completely right, HRMs are not designed to measure burn in Strength Training and the burn during is not the key benefit. It's the EPOC from a calorie point of view.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Are you talking about 24 hour fat burning? Azdak is correct on that. Your body burns X amount of fat per day, based on overall metabolic needs. Fat burning, like every other energy system in the body, is a 24/7 process. There are 3 main energy systems, and the body is using all 3 of them every second of the day. Activity level determines which one is the dominant one at any given time, it's basically a sliding scale. It's constantly moving back and forth based on what you are doing. Moving a heavy box? It swings toward the anaerobic side. Put the box down and jog down the stairs to answer the door? It swings back to the aerobic side. It's a constant shuffle, that balances out over a 24 hour period.

    Basically, if you try to burn more fat at a certain time, doing a specific activity (draining glycogen with strength training to force fat burning during cardio, for example,) the body adjusts, and while it may rely more heavily on that energy system while your exercising, it balances out and uses its other energy systems throughout the remainder of the day, leading to an overall net difference of zero from any other method of exercising.

    It's the same argument with HIIT and regular cardio. HIIT burns more fat during the activity, but the 24 hour totals are the same, controlling for overall calorie expenditure.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Yeah, I'm guessing that's what he means. So, the only benefit to, say 20 minutes of cardio after strength training is the burn of the 300 or so extra calories burned during? Am I understanding that correctly?
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Well, the benefit is the same as any other time you do cardio. It helps with cardiovascular health. It just doesn't actually burn more fat than you would otherwise.

    You could do weights first thing in the morning, followed immediately by cardio, or you could do weights first thing in the morning, and then cardio later that evening, and you'd burn the same amount of fat, either way.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Right! So, I'm guessing that's what he means. No additional fat burning benefit via EPOC is why he says it doesn't matter.
  • gxm17
    gxm17 Posts: 374
    During intense strength exercise your body will run into a shortage of oxygen and switch from aerobic to anaerobic and will start creating ATP from carbohydrates without the use of oxygen. Energy conversion happens faster in anaerobic conditions at the expense of less energy produced. It gives you a tremendous amount of usable energy that heart rate monitors can't measure because your heart doesn't have to pump all the energy to those muscles like it does during cardio exercise. The liver stores much of this but some of the energy is already there stored in the muscle and can be used instantly.

    I don't think HRMs are designed to monitor this energy output. You would need to have a VO2 sensor and probably some type of blood glucose monitor to accurately determine the difference between when your body switched from aerobic to anaerobic. That's way beyond what a HRM was designed for. It's strictly for aerobic exercise. I'm sure there's some truth to calories burned based on your breathing and heart rate but it's not going to be accurate for strength training.

    So if you had testing done to see at what heart rates your body changes from aerobic to anaerobic would you then have a more accurate measure? I truly am trying to learn and want to understand this.
    heartrate has nothing to do with it. There is no heartrate cuttoff when anaerobic exercise kicks in. It's intensity. If you lift or do anything at a high enough intensity, your body uses Type II fibres to do it.

    To put it another way, your body has engines that power the muscles. to keep it simple, a car engine, and a jet engine. The heart rate monitor measures gasoline consumption of the car engine. since a Jet engine does not use gas, your gas monitoring HRM is unable to measure the jetfuel burned. Different energy systems in the body. The HRM measures the cardio system. It is unable to measure the lactic acid or ATP-CP energy system.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_systems

    I totally get that. I use a HRM to give me an idea of how many calories to "eat back" I just switched back to this after gaining some weight when I had one set calorie goal.
    So would I be over eating if I eat back my calories my HRM says I burn while lifting?

    YMMV, but I have found that I have to eat back my HRM calories or I get sick, especially on my "heavy" lift day (probably light for most folks). For me, it was trial and error. I spent years working out, getting sick, working out, getting sick. It's only now that I'm tracking my calories, and eating them back, that I've been able to make some progress on the strength front.
  • shaycat
    shaycat Posts: 980
    Weights first, then cardio.

    Forget what your HRM is telling you, because an HRM is NOT designed for anaerobic activity, and is 100% inaccurate when it comes to strength training. It tells you you're burning more calories because the cardio first gets your heart rate up, and an HRM only knows "change in heart rate = calories burned." However, that only works for aerobic activity. Strength training is not aerobic. Changes in heart rate have absolutely NOTHING to do with calories burned with strength training.

    Thank you, this was the answer I was looking for when posting this question.
    I am going to stop wearing my HRM while I lift and only eat back my cardio calories. I try to get some cardio in each day.
  • KINGoftheBUFF
    KINGoftheBUFF Posts: 67 Member
    I beg to differ, as I'm a drug free competitive Bodybuilder and continually get down to 3 - 5 % bodyfat. So I stand by my above statement. If you are going to do cardio and weights on the same workout, do weights first than cardio. That was the question posed, and thats my answer.

    Yes there are other ways to increase fat loss from working out...but this is sound and answers the question.
  • MoveTheMountain
    MoveTheMountain Posts: 764
    No. Your HRM doesn't know what you are doing when you lift, so it's just plain wrong. You cannot use an HRM for lifting. It will always be wrong.


    Would you explain this please? If it is keeping track of your heart rate, why is it not accurate?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_striated_muscle

    Type II fibers don't use oxygen to do work. Your heart beats faster because of increased oxygen demand on your body. Thats why it's somewhat accurate when used to calculate calories burned. x amount of beats and y amount of oxygen per beat = z amount of calories burned. Since Type II fibres are anaerobic, no oxygen means no accurate measure of calories burned.

    for strength training, as a general rule, the more intense your lift, regardless of heartrate, the more calories burned. Meaning it could be anywhere from not much, up to into the stratosphere for an hour of lifting.

    In lieu of having any other way to measure resistance training in a meaningful way, it seems that (based on what you list above), the HRM should be providing at least the floor for how many calories you're burning.
  • MoveTheMountain
    MoveTheMountain Posts: 764
    No. Your HRM doesn't know what you are doing when you lift, so it's just plain wrong. You cannot use an HRM for lifting. It will always be wrong.


    Would you explain this please? If it is keeping track of your heart rate, why is it not accurate?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_striated_muscle

    Type II fibers don't use oxygen to do work... Since Type II fibres are anaerobic, no oxygen means no accurate measure of calories burned.

    Can you share your source for this? From what I understand, weight training recruits both type I and type II fibers - type I first, and then somewhere in the 6th to 8th rep, you start pulling in more type II fibers. Are type I anaerobic as well, or just type II? Also, I believe I saw someplace that everyone is different regarding their ratio of type I type II fibers. Basically, some folks just don't have a lot of type II (which is a drag)
  • AlsDonkBoxSquat
    AlsDonkBoxSquat Posts: 6,128 Member
    I do a mile warm up, lift with jumping rope between sets (except legs, I dont do anything in between squat sets for example) and end with either 15 minutes of Hiit or 60 minutes of step class or a 5-7ile run. The trainer I worked with last summer told me that It matters only as far as your goals. You want to lift to the max you lift first, you want to run to the max then you run first.
    I wear my hrm and figure it's low on lifting days because of the anaerobic nature of lifting and the "afterburn"
  • AlsDonkBoxSquat
    AlsDonkBoxSquat Posts: 6,128 Member
    So, of you're not eating back lifting calories, then what are you using to fuel you workouts? My diet is set up so that I should lose weight regardless of activity. If I need all that to live, what am I using for getting that bar up and down? If I eat poorly for a few days it shows in the weight room, that bar feels like it has 2 baby elephants on it, not 2 45# weight plates.
  • shaycat
    shaycat Posts: 980
    So, of you're not eating back lifting calories, then what are you using to fuel you workouts? My diet is set up so that I should lose weight regardless of activity. If I need all that to live, what am I using for getting that bar up and down? If I eat poorly for a few days it shows in the weight room, that bar feels like it has 2 baby elephants on it, not 2 45# weight plates.

    I love your fitness routine and wish I could do that much.
    I just started so I am not lifting super heavy yet. Just heavy enough for me. I have no clue as to how many calories I burn while lifting so I dont want to over eat. I have my goals set to lose .5lbs a week and I seem to just gain. I eat 100g of protein a day and do eat when I am hungry.
  • AlsDonkBoxSquat
    AlsDonkBoxSquat Posts: 6,128 Member
    No. Your HRM doesn't know what you are doing when you lift, so it's just plain wrong. You cannot use an HRM for lifting. It will always be wrong.


    Would you explain this please? If it is keeping track of your heart rate, why is it not accurate?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_striated_muscle

    Type II fibers don't use oxygen to do work. Your heart beats faster because of increased oxygen demand on your body. Thats why it's somewhat accurate when used to calculate calories burned. x amount of beats and y amount of oxygen per beat = z amount of calories burned. Since Type II fibres are anaerobic, no oxygen means no accurate measure of calories burned.

    for strength training, as a general rule, the more intense your lift, regardless of heartrate, the more calories burned. Meaning it could be anywhere from not much, up to into the stratosphere for an hour of lifting.

    Hope everyone realizes that anyone can write or edit wikipedia pages. And Many of them have misinformation on them. Be cautious of that.

    I'm offended by that assertion. Everyone knows that the interwebz don't lie and that wiki anything is like biblical truth.

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