Squat Troubles

tajmel

I've been teaching myself to lift weights for about two weeks now. I love it! But one thing is becoming a huge source of frustration: squats. My form is awful, and I don't feel comfortable adding weights until it's good.

Essentially, no matter what I do I lean really far forward and can't get very low. Like, it's maybe a half squat. I'm looking up, throwing my shoulders back, taking a nice wide stance, putting the bar on my shoulders (instead of neck), taking off my heeled trainers, angling my feet out just a bit, making sure my knees track over my toes without crossing them... I just can't seem to do it! It's also somewhat painful for my bum knee. I feel so, so silly squatting so poorly. The other guy in the weight room today looked at me like I was a lunatic! Can't say I blame him.

Is this because I'm so heavy? I mean, it is a lot of force. Squatting BW is still squatting like 140 lbs of fat. Is it because my legs are too bulky (I can do hamstring stretches, the kind where your heel touches your butt, without a problem)? Or because my core isn't strong enough?

As a side note before I started going to the gym I had been doing squats daily at home. I figured that even though my form wasn't great I should do them to improve, but maybe doing that has mis-trained my muscles? I don't know! I just don't know what to do.

Help?

tajmel

I know it's sort of tl;dr, but anybody?

DopeItUp

Hard to say without a video to demonstrate.

One thing I noticed is you said you turn your toes out a little. Turn them out a LOT. Like 30 degrees. When you squat down, make sure the knees track in-line with your feet. This means your legs get out of your belly's way as you come down. You really squat between your legs.

Think of like...a sumo wrestler almost. Feet shoulder-width apart and toes pointed way out so your legs get out of your way on the way down.

Determinednoob

I recommend buying and reading the book Starting Strength. It is a very comprehensive instructional for core barbell lifts. If not, then search out Stronglifts. Either in the ebook or somewhere on the website is a good explanation of how to do them. If you feel up to it you can get video of yourself doing lifts and post in the Exercises subforum at bodybuilding.com and those dudes will help you out.

For something quick, get your heels about shoulder width, feet pointed out at about 30 degrees, back arched, breath held, focus on the movement of your hips, think about coming up on your way down, push your knees outward as you go down, and above all focus on keeping the bar over your midfoot. Don't try to keep your back too straight up. The proper position will have you leaned forward some, but still with the bar in line with your midfoot. To date every time I squat I first go down with no bar, put my elbows on the inside of my knees, hands together, and push my knees outward partly to stretch slightly and partly for a reminder of where I should be with the bar on my back.

Sublog

I had a lot of troubles with back squats because I have terribly weak spinal erectors from being so fat and having such a big gut. I also have terrible hip flexibility and I can't go ATG because I also have terrible flexibility in my ankles as well.

Those minor/accessory muscles being used in the squat will keep your squat #'s really low if they are weak.

JessyJ03

I can do squats but not with weight on my shoulder. The guy at my gym (manager) said to practice squatting on a box with a weighted PVC pipe (pipe filled with sand) on my shoulders. This is to help me learn proper form and to get my body adjusted to squatting. I imagine once I lose some more weight squats will be easier

Edit to add: you can use a chair or anything else that gets your knees to a 90 deg angle and then stand back up. Sit, stand repeat.

whiskeycharged

This video taught me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ-DE1jtaRQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

KBjimAZ

Do body weight squats facing a wall. Start with yourself a couple of feet away from the wall, and work your way towards the wall in increments. Put a stool or box behind you if falling backwards is a concern.

One of the biggest hold ups with squat form is lack of sufficient hip flexibility, so working on that can do nothing but help you.

3laine75

i really, really struggle with these too. My biggest thing was i was impatient to lift heavier - finally started deloading to get my form right.

What I've found helpful is,

deloading
doing warm up sets first - first with no weight then 10k then 20k etc
in between my squat sets i'm doing 'good-mornings' to strengthen my hamstrings (these have really helped - videos on youtube)
just ignoring everyone in the gym - taking it really slow and watching what i'm doing in the mirror.

hope this helps and i'm keeping an eye on this thread for tips myself.


oh, and engage your core - or suck your gut in lol, i notice a difference when i pay attention to this.

tajmel

Thanks guys, lots of good advice. I'm taking notes .

Oh, and I do have Starting Strength, am subscribed to Strong Lifts, and read Lean Gains. Trying to be smart, I promise.

As kind of a secondary question, do any of you wear... I don't know, a knee compression band or brace or something for squats? My right knee is a huge factor in this.

Determinednoob

I check myself in the mirror some, but the proper place to be looking when squatting is at the floor about 4 feet in front of you.

If you have continuing knee pain you may seriously want to get with a doctor before risking further\permanent damage. Preferably one that is in to sports and definitely one that will do more than say "don't squat then" Permanent use of a brace should be a last resort.

meshashesha2012

it might be because you need to work on your hip and ankle flexibility. that's where i was at first. definitely skip the bar until you can at least get to parallel.


good luck!

japruzze

When I started slants I used to do them with out weights (or a bar). Start with straight slants and focus on form. My trainer used to have me stand just far enough away from a wall or poll and place my hands obit and slide them own to steady myself until I had it down. Took a long time but now squats aren't a problem.

wellbert

Box squats. My form was awful until I learned box squats. Then went back to regular squats.

JessyJ03

Box squats. My form was awful until I learned box squats. Then went back to regular squats.

I'm currently learning to squat via a box. It makes my form so much better than when I do it on my own

bennysammysofie

Not to sound like a know-it-all but something simple you can do and it works really well is: before you go down, curl your toes up and keep them curled up. Just do a BW squat with your toes curled up and you wont go forward. You may not go down to the depth you want but dont worry about that. Curling your toes will prevent you from going forward and itll keep your weight back on your heels. Slowly work on the depth you want (top of thighs parallel to floor) but you really dont have to go to that depth to get the results you need.
Did you ever try front squats?

whiskeycharged

Not to sound like a know-it-all but something simple you can do and it works really well is: before you go down, curl your toes up and keep them curled up. Just do a BW squat with your toes curled up and you wont go forward. You may not go down to the depth you want but dont worry about that. Curling your toes will prevent you from going forward and itll keep your weight back on your heels. Slowly work on the depth you want (top of thighs parallel to floor) but you really dont have to go to that depth to get the results you need.
Did you ever try front squats?

You want to keep your feet flat and push through the 4 corners of your foot.

tajmel

(Edit to say, sorry for responding to all of you at once, I'm being too lazy to quote.)

Yeah, you may be right that I need to just see a doctor, and I'm sure that doctor will in turn send me back to physical therapy... dang it. I feel like such an invalid getting PT :P. I took some of the advice here and managed to squat properly, which immediately resulted in crazy bad knee pain. Still hurts several hours later. To the doc I go.

I'll look into box squats (I'm not even sure what it is, but I'm sure youtube will be instructive.) I haven't tried front squats, but I'll give them a shot. I get how it might help the mechanics. As to curling the toes, I've repeatedly been told to push through all four corners of the foot. I understand why you're suggesting that (the same reason you shouldn't squat with a heel, but reversed), but it doesn't seem like a particularly stable thing to do, or like a permanent solution.

Also, if I push I can get parallel, but again, I've been repeatedly told a proper squat is lower than that, that the hips should be slightly lower than the knees. I just checked SS, and yep, they say that. Is this wrong/unreasonable?

DopeItUp

(Edit to say, sorry for responding to all of you at once, I'm being too lazy to quote.)

Yeah, you may be right that I need to just see a doctor, and I'm sure that doctor will in turn send me back to physical therapy... dang it. I feel like such an invalid getting PT :P. I took some of the advice here and managed to squat properly, which immediately resulted in crazy bad knee pain. Still hurts several hours later. To the doc I go.

I'll look into box squats (I'm not even sure what it is, but I'm sure youtube will be instructive.) I haven't tried front squats, but I'll give them a shot. I get how it might help the mechanics. As to curling the toes, I've repeatedly been told to push through all four corners of the foot. I understand why you're suggesting that (the same reason you shouldn't squat with a heel, but reversed), but it doesn't seem like a particularly stable thing to do, or like a permanent solution.

Also, if I push I can get parallel, but again, I've been repeatedly told a proper squat is lower than that, that the hips should be slightly lower than the knees. I just checked SS, and yep, they say that. Is this wrong/unreasonable?

Parallel is generally considered the bare minimum, you really want to get the hips lower than the knees.

Sbehlmer

Great post with a lot of great info...Thanks!!!

tajmel

Parallel is generally considered the bare minimum, you really want to get the hips lower than the knees.

Darn. Thanks .

78Octane

Even though squats are still considered the king, I have been getting away from them for awhile and have been hitting the leg press machine to focus on my quads. I am pushing way more weight with the leg press compared to squats, and it is safer for me. I have not spotters to rely on. Personally, unless you have 1 spotter on each side of the bar when you are doing heavy heavy squats, I recommend the leg press machine to avoid injuries. Just my personal preference though.

jeremycatrett

Even though squats are still considered the king, I have been getting away from them for awhile and have been hitting the leg press machine to focus on my quads. I am pushing way more weight with the leg press compared to squats, and it is safer for me. I have not spotters to rely on. Personally, unless you have 1 spotter on each side of the bar when you are doing heavy heavy squats, I recommend the leg press machine to avoid injuries. Just my personal preference though.

i disagree with using a leg press machine. you don't reap the benefits that squats have to offer in strengthening all the smaller core and leg muscles if you use a machine since you don't have to work on stabilizing. if you are using a squat cage then you don't have to worry about any spotters.

if you want to avoid injury then you need to dial the weight back a bit and work on form.

tajmel

So I looked at box squats. I must say, this is a pretty weird stance. Very wide foot placement and grip. Actually sitting on something doesn't seem like a terrible idea, as long as you just want to go parallel, but the rest confuses me. Anyone want to explain the idea behind this?

tajmel

http://bretcontreras.com/2012/04/traditional-squat-vs-powerlifting-squat-vs-box-squat/

This review of a study comparing traditional/power/box squats is interesting, and the first linked video is pretty awesome too... if anyone wants more reading material .

IronSmasher

Do body weight squats facing a wall. Start with yourself a couple of feet away from the wall, and work your way towards the wall in increments. Put a stool or box behind you if falling backwards is a concern.

One of the biggest hold ups with squat form is lack of sufficient hip flexibility, so working on that can do nothing but help you.

My vote goes for practising weighted face the wall squats.

justjenn1977

I've been teaching myself to lift weights for about two weeks now. I love it! But one thing is becoming a huge source of frustration: squats. My form is awful, and I don't feel comfortable adding weights until it's good.


Help?

I use the smith machine at the gym... helps me keep my form proper... and I have no pain... I have had back/hip/knee probs since I was a teen and I worried about adding squats into my routine... but using the smith machine I have no problems and no pain... and I have gotten up to "bar+40#"

meshashesha2012

I've been teaching myself to lift weights for about two weeks now. I love it! But one thing is becoming a huge source of frustration: squats. My form is awful, and I don't feel comfortable adding weights until it's good.


Help?

I use the smith machine at the gym... helps me keep my form proper... and I have no pain... I have had back/hip/knee probs since I was a teen and I worried about adding squats into my routine... but using the smith machine I have no problems and no pain... and I have gotten up to "bar+40#"

oh no. hate to break it to you, but smith machine is not giving you perfect form, in fact it's getting your body used to improper form since it forces your body in a unnatural positions for squatting.

http://stronglifts.com/smith-machine-squats-power-rack-free-weights/

http://www.2buildmusclefast.com/2011/02/smith-machines-good-or-bad.html


http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/388/8_Stupid_Myths_about_Squatting.aspx (see myth #5 especially)

JessyJ03

http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/detail/view/name/box-squat

This is what I used when first trying.

justjenn1977

oh no. hate to break it to you, but smith machine is not giving you perfect form, in fact it's getting your body used to improper form since it forces your body in a unnatural positions for squatting.

http://stronglifts.com/smith-machine-squats-power-rack-free-weights/

http://www.2buildmusclefast.com/2011/02/smith-machines-good-or-bad.html


http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/388/8_Stupid_Myths_about_Squatting.aspx (see myth #5 especially)

sigh... I think I just might hate you now... :sad:

I will look into this more

meshashesha2012

oh no. hate to break it to you, but smith machine is not giving you perfect form, in fact it's getting your body used to improper form since it forces your body in a unnatural positions for squatting.

http://stronglifts.com/smith-machine-squats-power-rack-free-weights/

http://www.2buildmusclefast.com/2011/02/smith-machines-good-or-bad.html


http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/388/8_Stupid_Myths_about_Squatting.aspx (see myth #5 especially)

sigh... I think I just might hate you now... :sad:

I will look into this more

i sowwy :flowerforyou:

dont want you to get hurt :sad:

the other good thing about doing squats off the smith machine is that you also work your core muscles. the day after squat day i will sometimes feel like i've done 5 minutes worth of planks :laugh: