Horizon Eat, fast and live longer

shakybabe

If I eat 1,000 and burn 1,000 isn't that the same as not having eaten all day? (ie fasting) so my body still has to find the cals to work body as I've burned everything off as soon as I've eaten it (get on pedals straight after each meal to burn equivalent calories).

Sometimes I'm even pedalling as I'm eating for snacks so its burned straight off and not going as extra stored fat. I thought it better than starving yourself as body still feels like its been fed so surely it will trick it to not slowing down metabolism? and exercise is also meant to boost metabolism?

ruksha123

Done my two fast days and although I was a bit short tempered and crabby during the two days I did lose weight (2.4 lbs) during the two days.

Found it easier than I thought, although the evenings where difficult (just needed a distraction- warning do not watch cooking programmes as a distraction!)

I will be stricter next time and do it from breakfast to breakfast the next day and only consume the 500 cals and see what happens.

I am also going to be doing next week 'crash lose a stone' (http://www.jaduncan.com/2006/04/how-i-lost-stone-in-week.html) Number 93 in order to try and help my mum lose some weight (she's a veggie and has high blood pressure, diabetes and is over weight and cannot exercise cause of her bad knees- too painful- so she needs to have a weight lost boost) If I can stick to it and do it she should be able to as well.

But in the long run, I will be doing the 5:2 programme, it is do able and sustainable for me personal.

kate1975

Have done week one and two consecutive days fast with 500 cal meal at 6 pm each evening. Found it easy tbh and looking forward to this weeks fast. Have upped my exercise and continued to eat healthy for the rest of the week! No loss as yet tho but not letting it put me off! Have reduced protein but could do with restricting it a little more and am considering alternate day fasting! Keep logging.
Did find on day 2 of fast felt week and tired and felt a little off day three when normal healthy eating commenced. Onwards and upwards tho

beattie1

I've just done 2 fast days this week - Tuesday and yesterday (Friday), and found it better than I'd expected. I hadn't planned on being very active on either day, but laid a patio on Tuesday which burned thousands of calories, then did a zumba class yesterday (600-ish calories).

I found I got hungry quicker before meals were due on Wednesday - the first day after my first fast day, but - apart from dreaming about food this morning before I woke up feel absolutely normal.

I didn't weigh on the day after the fast days (of course the weight will seem to be down!) but had lost 1lb on Thursday morning and another 1lb on Friday morning. I'm looking forward to weighing tomorrow.

rubyjune27

There is an article in the Saturday Telegraph. In the article he explains that due to lack of extensive research it is not possible to determine whether consuming all calories at one go, or spreading them out is more beneficial. He considers personal preference should be the guide. He also advocates the fast days should be spread out in the week.

My preference is to have a small amount of milk in the morning si I have one coffee with milk first thing, then save for one evening meal. I have fasted on a Tuesday and Thursday and a Monday and Thursday so far. I have a G.P appointment to review my BP medication. It is too soon to expect any significant changes, but I hope the reading and bloods I do now will be different from what my next review in December

eviledna

if you check out http://www.johnsonupdaydowndaydiet.com/html/how-to-do-the-diet.html you can work out your calories for down days / fast days. Cheers

geoff161

i started the fast(600cals) the day after the show, the government guideline of 2500 cals for a man are huge really and normally ends up in huge men lol, people close to me are commenting that i look thinner already but like most people i just say i dont feel it yet. ive found the 600 cals quite easily manageable and surprisingly im not overreating on the normal days in fact im struggling to reach 1500 cals.
i spoke to my GP about it and she seemed vague about the whole process but said it couldnt harm me and im going back in 3 months to see the results of bloods and weight etc.

MissMaggie3

I'm doing this too, along with some pals here. But we have some questions, which we have yet to find good answers to. Any advice from you guys would be welcome.

1. For people who are already relatively lean and don't want to lose weight, is it best to try to compensate for fasting in the 'eating window' or on eating days (i.e. up the calories)? We want to do it for the preventative health reasons, but risk disappearing altogether if we lose more weight!

2. There have been some questions about whether IF is effective - or as effective - for women, and there seems to be a general lack of scientific research into this. Anyone know of anything relevant?

BTW, there is an IF group here if any of you are interested: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/49-intermittent-fasting

beattie1

I'm doing this too, along with some pals here. But we have some questions, which we have yet to find good answers to. Any advice from you guys would be welcome.

1. For people who are already relatively lean and don't want to lose weight, is it best to try to compensate for fasting in the 'eating window' or on eating days (i.e. up the calories)? We want to do it for the preventative health reasons, but risk disappearing altogether if we lose more weight!

2. There have been some questions about whether IF is effective - or as effective - for women, and there seems to be a general lack of scientific research into this. Anyone know of anything relevant?

BTW, there is an IF group here if any of you are interested: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/49-intermittent-fasting

I think the reason you can't find any good answers is that nobody knows - not for sure anyway. All these different ways of scheduling fasting and eating windows are experimental & haven't been compared in a scientific way, with proper controls and a systematic approach. Welcome to the guinea pig cage!

wild_wild_life

You can watch the show on youtube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfna7nV7WaM

I just watched it. Definitely leaves a lot of unanswered questions and obviously it is an n=1 with the IGF decrease, but it is interesting. I also am not interested in losing weight and still want to be able to exercise and strength train. Am curious about the restricting protein concept and whether the 500 cal days are enough to restrict protein "enough" or if overall protein needs to be restricted. Not sure whether I will try it or not but it is something to think about.

wild_wild_life

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9480451/The-52-diet-can-it-help-you-lose-weight-and-live-longer.html

Found this link -- it's a general run down of the diet and answers some of the questions (rec. protein 55g/day, low cal days should not be consecutive, and it doesn't matter how the calories are spread throughout the day).

MissMaggie3

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9480451/The-52-diet-can-it-help-you-lose-weight-and-live-longer.html

Found this link -- it's a general run down of the diet and answers some of the questions (rec. protein 55g/day, low cal days should not be consecutive, and it doesn't matter how the calories are spread throughout the day).

OMG! I've just spent the last year and a half desperately trying to increase my protein, and now that I'm used to a high level, I find that I've got to bring it all the way back down again!

ruksha123

Day three down. Going well.

wild_wild_life

I'm doing this too, along with some pals here. But we have some questions, which we have yet to find good answers to. Any advice from you guys would be welcome.

1. For people who are already relatively lean and don't want to lose weight, is it best to try to compensate for fasting in the 'eating window' or on eating days (i.e. up the calories)? We want to do it for the preventative health reasons, but risk disappearing altogether if we lose more weight!

2. There have been some questions about whether IF is effective - or as effective - for women, and there seems to be a general lack of scientific research into this. Anyone know of anything relevant?

BTW, there is an IF group here if any of you are interested: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/49-intermittent-fasting

Doesn't matter when you compensate. I already mentioned how protein is the culprit not how many calories. You don't even need to fast if you reduce your protein intake. You get the same benefits. If you decide to fast, it's best to do it once a week, maximally 2x a week, no more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2673798/

This is a good paper.

In long term studies, calorie restricted diets did not decrease IGF-1 in humans like it does in rats (it did decrease leptin, insulin sensitivity and do other good things). Moderately protein restricted diets with typical overall calorie levels did decrease IGF-1.

MissMaggie3

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2673798/

This is a good paper.

In long term studies, calorie restricted diets did not decrease IGF-1 in humans like it does in rats (it did decrease leptin, insulin sensitivity and do other good things). Moderately protein restricted diets with typical overall calorie levels did decrease IGF-1.

Thank you, it certainly is a good paper, and I really am now radically rethinking my protein intake. I feel a bit stupid actually, because it has been low for decades, but by coming onto MFP and reading all the stuff on the forums I was persuaded that high protein was the way to go - I really should not be so suggestible!

Protein aside, as the paper deals with CR not fasting, we will await further studies I suppose.

MissMaggie3

Doesn't matter when you compensate. I already mentioned how protein is the culprit not how many calories. You don't even need to fast if you reduce your protein intake. You get the same benefits. If you decide to fast, it's best to do it once a week, maximally 2x a week, no more.

This is very interesting. So have I understood you correctly, that finding a 'sweet spot' for protein intake will promote all the health benefits that are being claimed for IF? No need to fast after all then? My head is spinning!

tobeftmom

Bump
I think Im going to try this.

MissMaggie3

@Pu_239 - that's very interesting. I've been vegetarian for 30 years, and much of that time I've been verging on veganism. Maybe I should just have carried on the way I was! There is so much pressure out there to consume animal products though - various health scares about deficiencies in protein, vitamins and minerals from animal sources - so recently I've been overdosing on greek yoghurt, eggs etc. It really isn't easy trying to work out the best thing to do for good health.

Edited to add: I've just read a study which backs up exactly what you are saying: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-9726.2008.00417.x/full

wild_wild_life

Fascinating topic. I spent the better part of last night researching this (yes, Saturday night and unfortunately I didn't save everything I found but below are some more links of interest (mix of studies, articles and chat room discussions):

http://www.ajcn.org/content/84/6/1456.abstract
http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/8388.aspx
http://www.ajcn.org/content/85/6/1667.full
http://www.oasisofhope.com/media/pdf/met_vegan.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080924151018.htm
http://www.ajcn.org/content/86/1/7.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622429/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20733612
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/57711-vegan-diet-may-slow-aging-by-reducing-igf-1/

Also looked into how much protein is really needed for muscle growth (because I don't want to completely give up on the idea of getting stronger) and found a link to this "book" by Brad Pilon. His Eat Stop Eat diet is very similar to the 5/2 plan.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49890664/6/Muscle-Growth-and-Low-Protein-Diets

My take home points were: Low(er) protein intake (75-95g/kg or 10% of calories) has been tied to low IGF-1 levels and decreased risk of cancer and increased longevity (increased lifespan and "health-span"), methionine, found in higher levels in animal protein, is of particular concern (most of the low protein studies were done in vegans and they probably had lower levels of methionine than low protein omnivores), and the typical Western diet likely provides more protein than we need, even for some degree of muscle gain.

I did not find anything looking specifically at long term intermittent fasting and IGF levels. A few of the links above looked at IF but in more general terms. Short term fasting does decrease IGF. It's not clear to me whether the benefits of IF are due to the fasting itself or because, in most of the studies, it results in caloric restriction. I am also not sure how much your protein intake during IF would play a role in its benefit.

If Moseley was keeping protein to 55g/day as suggested by the article I posted earlier, and presumably not eating that much protein on fast days, he is essentially eating the lower protein levels which have been tied to low IGF, so this could account entirely for that change regardless of fasting.

I read an interesting discussion on a paleo website speculating that it is a trade-off -- growth and high performance now vs. longevity later. It's not that it's wrong to go for high performance. But if there is a downside to it, it would be interesting to know. I have lowered my protein to 10% (50g/day, down from 90-100g/day). Thought I would see how I felt on that. The problem with this plan is, you're never going to know if it's doing anything -- unless you keep track of your IGF levels.

Qskim

Read later

MissMaggie3

Fascinating topic. I spent the better part of last night researching this (yes, Saturday night and unfortunately I didn't save everything I found but below are some more links of interest (mix of studies, articles and chat room discussions):

Excellent post, and a great way to spend a Saturday night; thank you!

fatgit133

Saw this program as well and thought it was very interesting. Decided to give a it a try and have now been on a 4:3 ratio... fasting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday for one week. Was very surprise at how easy i found it to go all day and only eat a 600 cal meal in the evening with the family on my fast days. The myfitnesspal has helped a lot with working out what foods i can use to make up a good meal. I'm going to keep this up for a month and see how i go. I have loss over 5lb already but my goal of 1 1/2 stone by the end of Sept seems a long way of. By the way, this is my first attempt at any form of diet ever..... wish me luck

p.s. picture was from a filming extra part i was in

Regards David

wild_wild_life

My take home points were: Low(er) protein intake (75-95g/kg or 10% of calories) has been tied to low IGF-1 levels and decreased risk of cancer and increased longevity (increased lifespan and "health-span"), methionine, found in higher levels in animal protein, is of particular concern (most of the low protein studies were done in vegans and they probably had lower levels of methionine than low protein omnivores), and the typical Western diet likely provides more protein than we need, even for some degree of muscle gain.

Sorry, just wanted to correct this -- it should be 0.75-0.95g/kg.

denmark979

according to the broadcast you can eat it anyway you like it. most people prefer one meal probably.

danfast84

Michael Mosley posted this on his twitter the other day:
Interview with Professor Mark Mattson (May 2012) on the link between fasting and disease prevention
Audio: http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2012/05/hrt_20120507_1740.mp3
Transcript on the website: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/caloric-restrictions-and-occasional-fasting/3995760

Excerpt from the transcript:
"Mark Mattson: In animals it’s very clear that if you reduce the calorie intake they live much longer and calorie restriction in animals reduces the incidence of many age related diseases; cancers, kidney disease, diabetes in animals.

Norman Swan: In all animals?

Mark Mattson: In all animals that I know of that have been tested so far, including all the way down to worms and flies and in monkeys as well, non-human primates.

Norman Swan: But you’ve been taking that one step further.

Mark Mattson: Yes as neuroscientists we were interested in the impact of energy restriction on the brain. One way to look at this is in evolutionary terms. Our ancestors and certainly animals in the wild tend to have limited resources and they have to go off on extended periods of time without food.

Norman Swan: Feast or famine.

Mark Mattson: Feast or famine. And our genes and every cell in our body are geared towards that type of intermittent energy intake. More recently we all eat now, or some of us anyway, three meals a day, but from the standpoint of evolution that’s abnormal. So we were interested to understand at least initially in laboratory animals and then in humans, if we manipulate dietary energy intake, particularly reducing energy intake either in a controlled daily way of what we call intermittent energy restriction, where for example every other day we greatly reduce the amount of calories or maybe two days a week fast or have very low calorie intake."

Batfink1971

Hello everyone, is this 2 days or 48 hours? If I have my last meal at 4 pm on Sunday does that mean I can eat normally at say 5pm Tuesday????

MissMaggie3

Hello everyone, is this 2 days or 48 hours? If I have my last meal at 4 pm on Sunday does that mean I can eat normally at say 5pm Tuesday????

Well speaking personally I couldn't contemplate doing 48 hours; most seem to recommend two different days, i.e. with others in between!

beattie1

On the Horizon programme that we are discussing, Michael Mosley ate 600 calories on two separate "fasting" days per week. He recommends NOT doing 2 consecutive fasting days, though there are other eating plans where I believe people do this. Women get 500 calories on "fasting" days. You eat "normally" (whatever that is.....) on the other 5 days of the week. The idea is to lower levels of hormones that promote ageing - any weight loss is *supposedly* a side effect.

Why not watch the programme for yourself on youtube & see what you think? He did emphasise that it's not suitable for everyone.
Edited to add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfna7nV7WaM

danfast84

It's okay, let their metabolism slow down, use amino acid pools, and be catabolic(destroy muscle tissue). Rules are there for a reason.

I wonder if reducing protein during feed-days, but eating normal quantities of protein during fast days would be better since there is a bigger overall protein reduction. The reason is it's easier to survive on protein foods on fast days.

MissMaggie3

It's okay, let their metabolism slow down, use amino acid pools, and be catabolic(destroy muscle tissue). Rules are there for a reason.

I wonder if reducing protein during feed-days, but eating normal quantities of protein during fast days would be better since there is a bigger overall protein reduction. The reason is it's easier to survive on protein foods on fast days.

The amount of protein to consume for the benefits of lower IGF-1 level's is the RDA recommendations. The RDA is 0.8g/kg. So lets say you weight 165lbs
165lbs/2.2 = 75kg
.8 * 75 = 60g of protein to consume per day.

So what I would do if you're doing the ADF(Alternate day fast) is on your fasted day dont eat protein. On day 2 you double it up, so it would be 120g of protein on eating days.

Yes, I get that, but what about exercise? I'm doing Stronglifts 5 x 5 - do I sacrifice muscle gain to the greater god of living longer by lowering my protein?