How many pounds of muscle could I really put on?
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So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.
Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......
An article that is written by Lyle McDonald, a long time trainer and designer of pro bodybuilding competition diets, pretty much the bodybuilding diet guru, who references 3 other models than his own as well. One by Alan Aragorn, another bodybuilding diet guru. One by Casey Butts, who basically reworked the Willoughby ideal #'s on modern bodybuilders, and one by Martain Berkhan, the designer of Leangains. Also referenced earlier in this thread was what Rippetoe has said on the subject, which is even more aggressive than these 4 models.
So basically a who's who in the bodybuilding world and their take on the subject, and their models, or some dude flaunting his credentials on a message board.
Just sayin'......
This is the same Ninerbuff that doesn't think you can get strong and put on muscle mass with bodyweight exercises, a point that we have argued in the past.There are people who are known as "hardgainers" (I was one) who do all the right things and still struggle to put on lean muscle in comparison with someone who may have a disposition to do it.
You should know that the hardgainer concept is considered a myth by many. "Show me a hardgainer and I'll show you an undereater" is a pretty well known phrase.0 -
Just tagging to follow - Niner is dishing out some good info here.
Me too! Tagging along, I mean.
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So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.
Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......
And by the same token do we listen to the likes of super well known Lyle and Casey etc or this PT? Who has mentioned hardgainers LOL. Hardgainer=undereater. Next we will be talking about somatotypes... Yes there is some variance in genetics but enough to make the difference between 5 and 15 lbs? ONE HUNDRED FIFTY PERCENT difference based on genetics? I kinda doubt it... We talk about the difference between men and women being roughly double but between 2 men of same height it's going to be triple?0 -
Lol, now I see why you disagree..........:laugh: Quit exaggerating. I NEVER said you can't get strong with body weight exercises. I stated that doing body weight weight exercises doesn't equate to STRENGTH training (progressive resistance) because as the weight goes down the resistance lessens (while on calorie deficit was the debate)if doing the same exercises. YOU QUIT RESPONDING after I asked how one increases strength if weight was the same doing the same exercise, but just more reps. And putting on muscle mass wasn't part of the debate. Ad hominem bro.So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.
Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......
An article that is written by Lyle McDonald, a long time trainer and designer of pro bodybuilding competition diets, pretty much the bodybuilding diet guru, who references 3 other models than his own as well. One by Alan Aragorn, another bodybuilding diet guru. One by Casey Butts, who basically reworked the Willoughby ideal #'s on modern bodybuilders, and one by Martain Berkhan, the designer of Leangains. Also referenced earlier in this thread was what Rippetoe has said on the subject, which is even more aggressive than these 4 models.
So basically a who's who in the bodybuilding world and their take on the subject, and their models, or some dude flaunting his credentials on a message board.
Just sayin'......
This is the same Ninerbuff that doesn't think you can get strong and put on muscle mass with bodyweight exercises, a point that we have argued in the past.There are people who are known as "hardgainers" (I was one) who do all the right things and still struggle to put on lean muscle in comparison with someone who may have a disposition to do it.
Really? So you're going to tell me that 2 people doing the same exact arm workout, eating the same surplus, etc. are going to have the same results in gains? If that were entirely true, then EVERY bodybuilder should have equal arms, legs, back, etc.You should know that the hardgainer concept is considered a myth by many. "Show me a hardgainer and I'll show you an undereater" is a pretty well known phrase.
Again, I don't disagree with authors methodology. You keep stating that males are GOING to gain 20-25lbs of muscle the first year of training, while the authors are speaking of POTENTIAL. Reality is that maybe a handful of males may achieve that. And that's with all the "stars" lined up. The OP asked about what was really achievable in muscle gain. And that's exactly what I gave her.
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Alan and Lyle seem to know their stuff. Been following them roughly for a few years. This is what they do and study basically. Jus sayin...0
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I have too. I just happen to disagree with actual "number" of amount of "pure" muscle that one gains in first year of training. That's all. I don't disagree with their methodology at all.Alan and Lyle seem to know their stuff. Been following them roughly for a few years. This is what they do and study basically. Jus sayin...
Waldo is pretty much just trying to discredit me because he was schooled.
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From Lyle's article General Philosophies of Muscle Mass Gain.
a natural male doing everything right will be doing very well to gain 1/2 of pound muscle per week. A female might gain half that or about 1/2 pound muscle every 2 weeks
Note the "doing everything right will be doing well".0 -
Dr. Oz is well known. So is Jillian Michaels. I guess they are 100% correct in their beliefs too? Testosterone levels make a total difference. A "hard gainer" doesn't have to be an under eater. Some people can't get body parts to respond like some do. King Kamali has crappy arms even though he trains them hard. Johnny Jackson can't get his legs to respond like his upper body.So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.
Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......
And by the same token do we listen to the likes of super well known Lyle and Casey etc or this PT? Who has mentioned hardgainers LOL. Hardgainer=undereater. Next we will be talking about somatotypes... Yes there is some variance in genetics but enough to make the difference between 5 and 15 lbs? ONE HUNDRED FIFTY PERCENT difference based on genetics? I kinda doubt it... We talk about the difference between men and women being roughly double but between 2 men of same height it's going to be triple?
Branch Warren and Dexter Jackson are approximately the same height (maybe a .5 inch difference) Both come in shredded for competitions. More than sure both are doing what it takes to achieve muscle mass. Branch outweighs (competition weight) Dexter by about 20lbs. Branch looks like he carries more muscle. But of course that shouldn't happen according to what you're saying.
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I don't know how long or optimally any of them have been training, but I doubt the differences in their gains are close to 150% Just sayin' The genetic differences and limitations within reason (hormone profile bad enough to be prescribed therapy aside) would not account for the extreme difference in potential that these guys' models show vs what you have said nor would they account for the 140lbs skinny kid who eats 2000 cals per day saying "bro, i eat so much" needing to be called a hardgainer. You want us not to confuse potential with actual results, but potential is what the OP asked for and the potential is there. Anyone can achieve it if they train with the proper volume, frequency, and intensity for their training level and recovery ability. We aren't here to discuss the results of people who don't train properly and\or lack the discipline to maximize their results.
I understand you feel the need to defend your point to death even if it is incorrect, so have at it.0 -
I understand you feel the need to defend your point to death even if it is incorrect, so have at it.
Look in the mirror Bro! You just described yourself. And the OP got what she need and departed a long time ago.0 -
so why are you and her saying its not possible when youre aggreeing with people smarter than you both saying its possible then.From Lyle's article General Philosophies of Muscle Mass Gain.
a natural male doing everything right will be doing very well to gain 1/2 of pound muscle per week. A female might gain half that or about 1/2 pound muscle every 2 weeks
Note the "doing everything right will be doing well".
26lbs of pure lean mass in a year is possible. there is zero debate on this. even moreso than that is more possible assuming a superior genetic specimen. for the average joe blow the accepted figure is .25-.5lbs a week for first year training. Accepted by pretty much anyone in the know. so the 5-10lbs a year max is pure BS.0 -
Lol yeah I think it's kind of funny when people think they gained 3 pounds of muscle in a week from doing something like the 30 day shred while eating 1200 calories a day. Riiiiiiiight.0
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5lbs of muscle a week? Is that a natural Average Joe Blow?0
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It's a 20lbs difference in muscle between the two. Your point was that it shouldn't happen. Both are seasoned veteran competitors in the pros and have at least 12 years competitive background between the two. The stats are true about the two.I don't know how long or optimally any of them have been training, but I doubt the differences in their gains are close to 150% Just sayin'.
Let me ask you: Do you believe that EVERYONE grows muscle the same? That if you train you chest just as hard as your legs that both will have the same exact percentage of muscle gain, or could someone train that hard and have great legs and a chest that doesn't resemble the same gains? If you believe that equal training for all body parts will result in equal gains, then your experience in the "muscle world" is limited. Many people's body parts respond better than other body parts when trying to gain. To believe it doesn't happen would be naive.The genetic differences and limitations within reason (hormone profile bad enough to be prescribed therapy aside) would not account for the extreme difference in potential that these guys' models show vs what you have said nor would they account for the 140lbs skinny kid who eats 2000 cals per day saying "bro, i eat so much" needing to be called a hardgainer.
Actually she asked what was an EXPECTED and average result, not a potential result.You want us not to confuse potential with actual results, but potential is what the OP asked for and the potential is there.
I have given examples of real people who have trained correctly and with much better discipline than the average person along with actual references from clinical studies. It's incorrect if it's false.Anyone can achieve it if they train with the proper volume, frequency, and intensity for their training level and recovery ability. We aren't here to discuss the results of people who don't train properly and\or lack the discipline to maximize their results.
I understand you feel the need to defend your point to death even if it is incorrect, so have at it.
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double post0
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I'm don't consider myself a weight lifter/body builder, but I do work out 4-5 times per week. I notice that when I'm training consistently my appetite does seem to increase so I need to keep a careful watch on calorie intake because it's pretty easy to go over (unless I'm using myfitnesspal correctly). Still you shouldn't worry too much about muscle gain- I see it as a good thing!0
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Agree with ninerbuff even thought the niners suck lol.
The problem with this question is that it is such as dynamic question. The genetic potential is dynamic so therefore everyone gets different results. The best thing to do is not worry how much muscle you will or will not have and basically start a diet that is fit for you to gain muscle. Some people in here who have posted have a pretty good idea of how much. Not all the weight you gain is all muscle, much like not all the weight you lose is fat. After reaching your muscle plateau in with the first year or two, gains of pure muscle are hard to come by. Your body doesn't magically produce any anabolic hormones that will let you gain 20 lbs of muscle in a year for example. Even using synthetic hormones gaining 20 lbs of pure muscle is at times not attainable. That is why pro bodybuilders for example resort to HGH, IGF1, and insulin to gain more muscle. They of course still need to diet and bust their *kitten* in the gym.0 -
I have given examples of real people who have trained correctly and with much better discipline than the average person along with actual references from clinical studies. It's incorrect if it's false.
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I looked at those links, and they are just like every other study. useless. lol at trained correctly. do a couple machines at load weights far below max and measure differences over a month.
If you want an eye opener, why dont you look at gyms like westside, defrancos, etc. hell, defrancos is a perfect example where they take football players with years of experience and toss on a good dozen lbs of rip in a few months before the combine. According to you this is impossible yet they have done it hundreds of times if not thousands.
the idea a newb can get 26lbs of lean mass is not shocking. Ive seen it done many times. Hell myself tossed on 50lbs over the course of a year when I actually decided to train hard and see what would happen, and this was with a decent base to begin with. While not all lean gains, the idea that I tossed on 40+lbs of fat to the 10 lean according to your metrics is laughable in every possible way.
Hell, quick ****ing google. Why dont we shall we. unlike your studies, which are ****, heres someone actually doing something
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123682031&page=1
Let me guess, of the 60lbs he gained, about 50 are fat right... That explains why he looks to ****ting in the after pic.
I could go on and provide hundreds of examples of the same ****, but why bother, you obviously know better.0 -
so why are you and her saying its not possible when youre aggreeing with people smarter than you both saying its possible then.From Lyle's article General Philosophies of Muscle Mass Gain.
a natural male doing everything right will be doing very well to gain 1/2 of pound muscle per week. A female might gain half that or about 1/2 pound muscle every 2 weeks
Note the "doing everything right will be doing well".
26lbs of pure lean mass in a year is possible. there is zero debate on this. even moreso than that is more possible assuming a superior genetic specimen. for the average joe blow the accepted figure is .25-.5lbs a week for first year training. Accepted by pretty much anyone in the know. so the 5-10lbs a year max is pure BS.
Didn't say impossible. Said unlikely except under optimum conditions. Read the part I noted. Someone "doing everything right will be ding well'. For those like you who are reading comprehension challenged, that statement would indicate that it is not the norm. It is the exception under perfect conditions. But, hey, being God's gift to fitness, who is a mere mortal like me to disagree with you?0 -
Doing everything right isn't really THAT hard though. Lift on a proper routine for your training and recovery levels with progression that fits the same, eat a proper diet, work out consistently. It is really easier than what a lot of people actually do.0
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Doing everything right isn't really THAT hard though. Lift on a proper routine for your training and recovery levels with progression that fits the same, eat a proper diet, work out consistently. It is really easier than what a lot of people actually do.
If that were true, why wouldn't it be happening consistently? What role does genetics play? Why do some people "do everything right" and still not see these kinds of gains. The 2nd half of the statement that I posted from Lyle said "would be doing well". Meaning would be at the upper end of the curve. So what would the average look like? 18 lbs first year? And what abou the low end of the spectrum, 14 lbs? And what factor does age play? Not all trainees are in the 18 to 35 lb backet that Lyle and others identify as the the optimum bracket for muscle mass gain.
So, in my opinion, I think it's fautly logic to look at the best that could possibly happen and represent it that everyone can do that and it happens all the time. It clearly doesn't.0 -
Probably has something to do with the large amount of misinformation being proliferated with regards to how to train to build muscle along with plenty of people having too much fear of eating. Namean?0
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Probably has something to do with the large amount of misinformation being proliferated with regards to how to train to build muscle along with plenty of people having too much fear of eating. Namean?
I think that's part of it but not the whole story. Look at the examples of the 2 bodybuilders Niner posted a few posts back. I'm sure they both know the right things to do and how coaches that assist in that yet different outcomes. Genetic expression is not a consistent formula or we'd all look the same.
Btw, I appreciate the tone you have taken with the discussion. More a debate of ideas than some of the other stuff that has gone on in this thread. We may agree to disagree in the end but that can be done respectfully.0 -
Probably has something to do with the large amount of misinformation being proliferated with regards to how to train to build muscle along with plenty of people having too much fear of eating. Namean?
This.
Many just don't grasp the eating side of things.
If you aren't gaining the muscle but are gaining weight (fat) at the rate you are targeting, then eating isn't the problem (assuming protein and micronutrients are good enough). If you are gaining weight slow, eat more, that is the issue.
Just like weight loss, there is no crazy voodoo. Adjust calorie targets to bring results in-line with your plan. If a hardgainer needs to eat 4500-5000-5500 calories a day, so be it.0 -
As I have said certainly there are genetic differences that play a part, but not THAT much of a part. The ranges given in Lyle's article should mostly account for that. The fact is probably more people than not (like me) lift and eat in a suboptimal manner when they start out. Some hit the wall at 3-6 months and never get past it. Others continue to dig and dig until they find information on what actually works. A few of them may make posts like this one to make it easier for others. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/686963-large-collection-of-info-for-beginners0
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There's anecdotal and peer reviewed evidence. You can stick to yours.I have given examples of real people who have trained correctly and with much better discipline than the average person along with actual references from clinical studies. It's incorrect if it's false.
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I looked at those links, and they are just like every other study. useless. lol at trained correctly. do a couple machines at load weights far below max and measure differences over a month.
If you want an eye opener, why dont you look at gyms like westside, defrancos, etc. hell, defrancos is a perfect example where they take football players with years of experience and toss on a good dozen lbs of rip in a few months before the combine. According to you this is impossible yet they have done it hundreds of times if not thousands.
the idea a newb can get 26lbs of lean mass is not shocking. Ive seen it done many times. Hell myself tossed on 50lbs over the course of a year when I actually decided to train hard and see what would happen, and this was with a decent base to begin with. While not all lean gains, the idea that I tossed on 40+lbs of fat to the 10 lean according to your metrics is laughable in every possible way.
Hell, quick ****ing google. Why dont we shall we. unlike your studies, which are ****, heres someone actually doing something
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123682031&page=1
Let me guess, of the 60lbs he gained, about 50 are fat right... That explains why he looks to ****ting in the after pic.
I could go on and provide hundreds of examples of the same ****, but why bother, you obviously know better.
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I can't discount that it's true many a starter will be uninformed when starting a muscle gaining routine. Most will usually be high school kids trying to put on weight and the majority of them eat like birds, hence they don't see any progression.As I have said certainly there are genetic differences that play a part, but not THAT much of a part. The ranges given in Lyle's article should mostly account for that. The fact is probably more people than not (like me) lift and eat in a suboptimal manner when they start out. Some hit the wall at 3-6 months and never get past it. Others continue to dig and dig until they find information on what actually works. A few of them may make posts like this one to make it easier for others. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/686963-large-collection-of-info-for-beginners
To make it clear, I don't doubt what the "potential" that McDonald states could happen. I find it unlikely to happen (not that it can't be done) because in this world, one's life isn't going to just rotate around muscle gain, unless that's what they do for a living. Work, family time, recreation time, sleep, commute time, etc. will play a part. If it was just that linear, then weight loss and muscle gain should be plugging in some numbers and voila, done. But we all know it doesn't work that way. Many people can do everything right and still not get good results.
The OP asked for what she could EXPECT. I didn't overshoot, I gave her real numbers that probably would be achievable to her.
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I can't discount that it's true many a starter will be uninformed when starting a muscle gaining routine. Most will usually be high school kids trying to put on weight and the majority of them eat like birds, hence they don't see any progression.
To make it clear, I don't doubt what the "potential" that McDonald states could happen. I find it unlikely to happen (not that it can't be done) because in this world, one's life isn't going to just rotate around muscle gain, unless that's what they do for a living. Work, family time, recreation time, sleep, commute time, etc. will play a part. If it was just that linear, then weight loss and muscle gain should be plugging in some numbers and voila, done. But we all know it doesn't work that way. Many people can do everything right and still not get good results.
The OP asked for what she could EXPECT. I didn't overshoot, I gave her real numbers that probably would be achievable to her.
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Why not look at what the OP wrote.....Let's just pretend for a minute than I did weight lifting by the book- with optimum nutrition and recovery time and was very consistent with my workouts and progressed heavier each time. How much muscle weight could I honestly expect to gain per month?
As in what is the fastest rate that is physically possible if you do everything right. She didn't seem to be asking what is realistic for someone marginally dedicated.0 -
I key on the word HONESTLY. I think that my answer to her is more in the realm of honest and achievable. I wasn't trying to dissuade her that she couldn't do more, but it's rare that many will delve into something with the attitude that that THIS IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Life for many on here isn't like that.I can't discount that it's true many a starter will be uninformed when starting a muscle gaining routine. Most will usually be high school kids trying to put on weight and the majority of them eat like birds, hence they don't see any progression.
To make it clear, I don't doubt what the "potential" that McDonald states could happen. I find it unlikely to happen (not that it can't be done) because in this world, one's life isn't going to just rotate around muscle gain, unless that's what they do for a living. Work, family time, recreation time, sleep, commute time, etc. will play a part. If it was just that linear, then weight loss and muscle gain should be plugging in some numbers and voila, done. But we all know it doesn't work that way. Many people can do everything right and still not get good results.
The OP asked for what she could EXPECT. I didn't overshoot, I gave her real numbers that probably would be achievable to her.
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Why not look at what the OP wrote.....Let's just pretend for a minute than I did weight lifting by the book- with optimum nutrition and recovery time and was very consistent with my workouts and progressed heavier each time. How much muscle weight could I honestly expect to gain per month?
As in what is the fastest rate that is physically possible if you do everything right. She didn't seem to be asking what is realistic for someone marginally dedicated.
Natural bodybuilder who WANTS NOTHING MORE than do just add muscle, well obviously the mindset is much different.
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This has been a very interesting thread to read. Most of the information went over my head, though. I do have a question related to the OP, though.
If a woman who has no previous lifting experience and low muscle tone to begin with started to lift weights 3x a week, would she still only gain 7-10 lbs of muscle weight a year?
I ask because I started lifting 3 months ago, but not body builder status.. think beginner home gym type with free weights. I can honestly say I had no true muscle tone/mass in my back, legs, chest, or arms. Now I have a noticeable difference not only to the eye but to the touch. My weight has stayed in the same range, though. I started out around 176 lbs and I'm still around 176lbs, after approximately 85 days. I will admit that my diet hasn't been text book.
Visuals at 60 days. I'm approaching 90 days at the end of this week.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/swilliams0374/ChaleanExtreme1-60Back.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/swilliams0374/ChaleanExtreme1-60Side.jpg
I've been wondering how much muscle mass I might have actually put on over these past 3 months, particularly since my weight has remained unchanged.0
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