For all the Smith Machine haters out there
alyssamiller77
Posts: 891 Member
There's been a lot of bashing of Smith Machines on this board (and indeed in many body building circles as well) and while some of it may be legit, I personally think they've been made out to be a big evil device that they really are not. I've seen conflicting thoughts on this expressed in many outlets, but the one I've always loved to point to is Dorian Yate's use of the Smith Machine. Not only does he use it for upper body movements but actually for squats it is his preference. What I like best about him is his "do what's right for you" approach rather than the typical one size fits all advice most bodybuilders and wannabe builders post. Here's an excerpt from an interview with Yates where he talks about his use of Smith Machines and a little of his reasoning behind it:
"T: Do you ever use Smith machines and do you have any strong opinions about that piece of equipment?
Dorian: Yeah, I used them for pressing movements, like incline press and shoulder press. I used it for squats, as well. I was brought up in the era of Tom Platz and he always said, "You've gotta squat; squats are the greatest thing for your thighs." Obviously it was true for Tom Platz. He had a good structure so that when he was squatting, the majority of the stress was taken by his quadriceps; his structure was quite short. So I was religiously squatting for the first five or six years that I was training. My legs were okay but they weren't great, until I began experimenting.
Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses — I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting.
T: That's fascinating because that flies in the face of so much advice.
Dorian: If it works, do it. If it doesn't, don't. My attitude is, don't agonize over why"
Just food for thought folks. Before you get everyone believing that the Smith Machine is some nefarious, injury causing, muscle depleting device, think logically and look at the facts.
"T: Do you ever use Smith machines and do you have any strong opinions about that piece of equipment?
Dorian: Yeah, I used them for pressing movements, like incline press and shoulder press. I used it for squats, as well. I was brought up in the era of Tom Platz and he always said, "You've gotta squat; squats are the greatest thing for your thighs." Obviously it was true for Tom Platz. He had a good structure so that when he was squatting, the majority of the stress was taken by his quadriceps; his structure was quite short. So I was religiously squatting for the first five or six years that I was training. My legs were okay but they weren't great, until I began experimenting.
Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses — I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting.
T: That's fascinating because that flies in the face of so much advice.
Dorian: If it works, do it. If it doesn't, don't. My attitude is, don't agonize over why"
Just food for thought folks. Before you get everyone believing that the Smith Machine is some nefarious, injury causing, muscle depleting device, think logically and look at the facts.
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Replies
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While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
This. For the love of God, this.0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.0 -
Unless you have some sort of injury that prevents you from doing regular bar Full Squats, then you shouldn't do the Smith Machine.0
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...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
funniest thing I've read all day.0 -
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
bahahahaha0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
this.
and these guys are isolating muscles for hypertrophy.
for the average person who is just wanting to get stronger, smith machines are sh**0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!
curling in the squat rack is a sin, unless you have 45's on each side. then you're just badass.0 -
Plus, it depends on goals. When I started squatting 15 years ago, my personal trainers (I had two of them <----I'm kind of a big deal) pushed the Smith because of the isolation aspect -- but just like in the original post "you don't have to worry about balance" -- basically, a smith is taking away much of the total body benefit that he describes like it's a bad thing. But, to him I guess it is if he completely wants to isolate a muscle.0
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How dya think Sty Stallone got those awesome Quads for Rocky III when he actually got into phenominal shape? Squatting on a smith Machine
I think its a great tool, I dont use it myself I feel more comfortable with just a bench and a bar but each to their own, if it works, it works. 0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!
curling in the squat rack is a sin, unless you have 45's on each side. then you're just badass.
False. It's still lame.0 -
How dya think Sty Stallone got those awesome Quads for Rocky III when he actually got into phenominal shape?
drugs0 -
How dya think Sty Stallone got those awesome Quads for Rocky III when he actually got into phenominal shape?
drugs
hahaha he wasnt on the hgh back then though, Id half agree, but he still had to do the work to get them in that shape then (I dont aspire to drug ussage)0 -
Can someone give a appears online me the cliff notes version of why the smith machines bad?0
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Can someone give a appears online me the cliff notes version of why the smith machines bad?
Mostly because it limits the motion of the bar to a range that's not "natural".
Same basic problem as any other isolation machine, really.
Fake Edit:
http://www.changing-bodies.com/blog/2010/12/3-reasons-why-the-smith-machine-sucks0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!
Screw it. My name is Dave and I am a Squat Rack Curler. My people have been oppressed too long.. Fellow squat rack curlers unite with me in our noble cause! WE WILL NOT CONTINUE TO BE OPPRESSED!!! Free The Rack!
#LETUSFREE0 -
I actually think it's kind of funny that everyone right away cites the fact that Yates is a 1%'er and that nothing he does applies to the average individual. So much of the "advice" spewed on this forum comes from exactly that, techniques and strategies that apply only to those at the highest level yet we talk about them here like they're some gospel everyone must follow.
I pulled the Yates reference in particular because if you read anything he's said about squatting on Smith Machines, his point actually mimics yours. He basically came out and said that free squats are great and all but the argument against Smith Machines is ultimately based on the experiences of those top echelon guys who need to do far more than simply strengthen their quads, hammies and glutes and that with many body types that don't fit that exact mold, free squats don't offer a whole lot over and above what one can gain from Smith squats.
That said, my point here isn't that Smith Squats are the secret to anyone's success or that they should be favored over free squats. My point is that this constant vilification of the Smith Machine as a tool for body building is complete horse crap. Squats can be performed to great successes on the Smith Machine and with free barbells on a squat rack. In either case they must be done with PROPER FORM and that holds true for doing any lifting exercise. I can injure myself just as easily doing curls with a pair of dumbbells as I can on the bicep curl machine at the club. You do it wrong, you get hurt, period. This incessant attack on the Smith Machines in particular has little basis. Beyond that I extended my point subtly to mention that we all must do what works for us. If you like squatting on a free rack, great for you, I'm glad. But quit telling people that if they use a Smith Machine they're either not serious, not doing it right, or they're going to hurt themselves because none of that is related to the equipment being used.
EDIT: And I'm definitely going to start curling on the squat rack just to show my solidarity with my friends here on MFP.
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Plus, it depends on goals. When I started squatting 15 years ago, my personal trainers (I had two of them <----I'm kind of a big deal) pushed the Smith because of the isolation aspect -- but just like in the original post "you don't have to worry about balance" -- basically, a smith is taking away much of the total body benefit that he describes like it's a bad thing. But, to him I guess it is if he completely wants to isolate a muscle.
^ This - and indeed that's part of my point. You need to use the right tool for your body, your goals and your skill level.0 -
Plus, it depends on goals. When I started squatting 15 years ago, my personal trainers (I had two of them <----I'm kind of a big deal) pushed the Smith because of the isolation aspect -- but just like in the original post "you don't have to worry about balance" -- basically, a smith is taking away much of the total body benefit that he describes like it's a bad thing. But, to him I guess it is if he completely wants to isolate a muscle.
I agree with JNH too that the original post points out EXACTLY why free squats are better for most people than the Smith, which is because it utilizes so many more muscles, and incorporates the element of balance.0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!
curling in the squat rack is a sin, unless you have 45's on each side. then you're just badass.
False. It's still lame.
stick to your machines then0 -
Plus, it depends on goals. When I started squatting 15 years ago, my personal trainers (I had two of them <----I'm kind of a big deal) pushed the Smith because of the isolation aspect -- but just like in the original post "you don't have to worry about balance" -- basically, a smith is taking away much of the total body benefit that he describes like it's a bad thing. But, to him I guess it is if he completely wants to isolate a muscle.
I agree with JNH too that the original post points out EXACTLY why free squats are better for most people than the Smith, which is because it utilizes so many more muscles, and incorporates the element of balance.
Except that I wasn't arguing which was better. Better is a completely subjective term that without everyone's individual context means nothing. My point was people need to stop their vilification of the Smith Machine like it's this big horrible monster, it's no better or worse than any other Hammer Strength machine or cable weight machine.0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.
Totally and completely agree. The people that I see in my gym that use Smith Machines (which is the only way you can squat with a bar and not dumbbells sadly, as we have no squat racks or power racks.... stupid Planet Fitness) have TERRIBLE form because the Smith Machine is actually angeled slightly, which means the person in squat rack, if less experiened, has NO CLUE where to put their feet to give them proper placement and form. In my opinion, the angeled sqaut racks are worse than the ones that are only straight up and down.0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.
Totally and completely agree. The people that I see in my gym that use Smith Machines (which is the only way you can squat with a bar and not dumbbells sadly, as we have no squat racks or power racks.... stupid Planet Fitness) have TERRIBLE form because the Smith Machine is actually angeled slightly, which means the person in squat rack, if less experiened, has NO CLUE where to put their feet to give them proper placement and form. In my opinion, the angeled sqaut racks are worse than the ones that are only straight up and down.
Agreed except that if a person doesn't care enough about their workout to make sure their form in the Smith Machine Squats is proper and correct, what makes you think they're going to get it right on a free-Squat? Adding more variables to the mix (i.e. balance and such) tends to cause people to cheat more. For example, how many people at your Planet Fitness do you see doing standing curls with the dumbbells that are swinging their arms or whole upper bodies wildly because they've got too much weight? The bicep curl machines however don't allow you to do this (although you can cheat in other ways there).
Free weights don't prevent bad form and in fact with most beginners not under supervision they actually encourage bad form.0 -
Screw it. My name is Dave and I am a Squat Rack Curler. My people have been oppressed too long.. Fellow squat rack curlers unite with me in our noble cause! WE WILL NOT CONTINUE TO BE OPPRESSED!!! Free The Rack!
#LETUSFREE
As IY once supposedly said (at least in a movie), "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
What have I done!?0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.
Totally and completely agree. The people that I see in my gym that use Smith Machines (which is the only way you can squat with a bar and not dumbbells sadly, as we have no squat racks or power racks.... stupid Planet Fitness) have TERRIBLE form because the Smith Machine is actually angeled slightly, which means the person in squat rack, if less experiened, has NO CLUE where to put their feet to give them proper placement and form. In my opinion, the angeled sqaut racks are worse than the ones that are only straight up and down.
Agreed except that if a person doesn't care enough about their workout to make sure their form in the Smith Machine Squats is proper and correct, what makes you think they're going to get it right on a free-Squat? Adding more variables to the mix (i.e. balance and such) tends to cause people to cheat more. For example, how many people at your Planet Fitness do you see doing standing curls with the dumbbells that are swinging their arms or whole upper bodies wildly because they've got too much weight? The bicep curl machines however don't allow you to do this (although you can cheat in other ways there).
Free weights don't prevent bad form and in fact with most beginners not under supervision they actually encourage bad form.
when squatting in the smith machine people seem to want to use the same set up as they do with a barbell squat. because of the angle the machine is set up it throws their body way off line. most don't understand how far forward your feet need to because it's not a very natural feeling.0 -
While I agree that everyone needs to try different things and decide for themselves what works and doesn't work, I don't think it's a great idea to use world class, former Mr. Olympia, 99.9% percentile genetics, massive steriod users like Dorian Yates as an example. For an elite class person like that, many things would work that may not benefit or would even hurt 90% of the GenPop. And even in this quote, he's presented as an outlier. Most of the advice given in forums like these is meant to help a broad spectrum more than the outliers.
It is good advice to decide for yourself what to do and not take the word of the forums as gospel tho. I agree with you on that.
Good points...
...however, I believe you have publicly advocated curling in the squat cage, so I must completely discount everything you say...anywhere...about anything.
Who? Me? Well I would never, ever, EVER do curls in squat rack. That photo of me was photoshopped by my enemies, I swear!
curling in the squat rack is a sin, unless you have 45's on each side. then you're just badass.
I agree with each of these posts0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.
Totally and completely agree. The people that I see in my gym that use Smith Machines (which is the only way you can squat with a bar and not dumbbells sadly, as we have no squat racks or power racks.... stupid Planet Fitness) have TERRIBLE form because the Smith Machine is actually angeled slightly, which means the person in squat rack, if less experiened, has NO CLUE where to put their feet to give them proper placement and form. In my opinion, the angeled sqaut racks are worse than the ones that are only straight up and down.
Agreed except that if a person doesn't care enough about their workout to make sure their form in the Smith Machine Squats is proper and correct, what makes you think they're going to get it right on a free-Squat? Adding more variables to the mix (i.e. balance and such) tends to cause people to cheat more. For example, how many people at your Planet Fitness do you see doing standing curls with the dumbbells that are swinging their arms or whole upper bodies wildly because they've got too much weight? The bicep curl machines however don't allow you to do this (although you can cheat in other ways there).
Free weights don't prevent bad form and in fact with most beginners not under supervision they actually encourage bad form.
Yeah, I never said that they prevent bad form. And you're right, free weights absolutely encourage bad form, just like Smith Machines do. The fact of the matter remains that when we are speaking about a person who knows the correct form, they will get more benefit out of free weights than the Smith Machine. More benefit comes from having to balance by using your core, having control of the squat motion which uses your stabilizing muscles, and consistently improving your form over time by using free standing weights rather than a machine that "holds your form" for you. If you notice, even people who have proper feet placement and form (knee-over-ankle, etc..) on a Smith Machine can use the bar as a back rest and push against the bar to slide the bar up the machine which doesn't teach that person's body control or balance and ultimately if they went to free squats they would struggle.0 -
comparing Dorian Yates to Average Joe in the gym isn't the best way to go about it. Yates was using the smith machine to target a specific area of his body. the average gym goer would benefit way more from a free weight squat as it works his/her stabilizers alot more than squatting in a smith machine.
the average person's form is bad enough on a free weight squat, but from what i see in the gym every day their form suffers even more in the smith machine because the machine is helping them balance the weight.
Totally and completely agree. The people that I see in my gym that use Smith Machines (which is the only way you can squat with a bar and not dumbbells sadly, as we have no squat racks or power racks.... stupid Planet Fitness) have TERRIBLE form because the Smith Machine is actually angeled slightly, which means the person in squat rack, if less experiened, has NO CLUE where to put their feet to give them proper placement and form. In my opinion, the angeled sqaut racks are worse than the ones that are only straight up and down.
Agreed except that if a person doesn't care enough about their workout to make sure their form in the Smith Machine Squats is proper and correct, what makes you think they're going to get it right on a free-Squat? Adding more variables to the mix (i.e. balance and such) tends to cause people to cheat more. For example, how many people at your Planet Fitness do you see doing standing curls with the dumbbells that are swinging their arms or whole upper bodies wildly because they've got too much weight? The bicep curl machines however don't allow you to do this (although you can cheat in other ways there).
Free weights don't prevent bad form and in fact with most beginners not under supervision they actually encourage bad form.
Yeah, I never said that they prevent bad form. And you're right, free weights absolutely encourage bad form, just like Smith Machines do. The fact of the matter remains that when we are speaking about a person who knows the correct form, they will get more benefit out of free weights than the Smith Machine. More benefit comes from having to balance by using your core, having control of the squat motion which uses your stabilizing muscles, and consistently improving your form over time by using free standing weights rather than a machine that "holds your form" for you. If you notice, even people who have proper feet placement and form (knee-over-ankle, etc..) on a Smith Machine can use the bar as a back rest and push against the bar to slide the bar up the machine which doesn't teach that person's body control or balance and ultimately if they went to free squats they would struggle.
And I don't disagree with any of that. As someone who does workout at PF and has used the Smith Machines to do squats (although ours are straight vertical), it takes a lot more concentration to ensure you're lifting with your legs and holding your core tight, I agree. My point wasn't that Smith Machines are as good or better, only that they're not the evil machines that people make them out to be.
I've actually seen the question asked on this forum multiple times, "what do I do if all I have are Smith Machines" and inevitibly at least one person says go to a different gym or don't do squats. You can do squats safely and effectively on a Smith Machine. Just like with any other lifting exercise, you have to make sure you use proper form and focus to achieve the results you're looking for.0
This discussion has been closed.
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