You Are Not Different
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I suggest you read the article more carefully.
Why? I got to this part and knew he just makes stuff up that suits his purposes. Just because something "sounds right", or "makes sense" doesn't make it true:You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
What could I hope to gain here? This is obviously just someone's opinion without any facts to back it up. Sorry, I don't need any more opinions, there are more than enough of those to go round already.0 -
I suggest you read the article more carefully.
Why? I got to this part and knew he just makes stuff up that suits his purposes. Just because something "sounds right", or "makes sense" doesn't make it true:You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
What could I hope to gain here? This is obviously just someone's opinion without any facts to back it up. Sorry, I don't need any more opinions, there are more than enough of those to go round already.
*sigh*
Because you cannot be bothered to read actual studies and think about what they actually saying and how it relates to the studies you link, I will do it for you:
I draw your attention to:
http://www.jacn.org/content/18/2/115.full
It is a study on the impact of resistance training for obese individuals on a VLCD. The results: they lost both fat and LBM, but the ones doing resistance training to a much smaller degree than those not. Total mass decreased.
All of your links are to abstracts – please could you provide links to the actual studies that indicate that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply.
Food for thought: where do you think the energy comes from for obese individuals to gain LBM?0 -
*sigh*
Ah, the *sigh* technique, yes that will definitely make up for any and all logical fallacies and conjecture on your part. So let's stick to facts here. These are quotes from the abstracts I posted:Although less commonly used, resistance exercise appears to prevent loss of or even increase muscle mass during energy restriction.Physical training in the group of obese men resulted in a decrease of body fat, a further increase of lean body mass, an increase of fast twitch, aerobic type, muscle fibres as well as lower plasma insulin, cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations and lower blood pressure.In the obese RTWL group (n = 7), body weight, fat mass, and percent body fat were significantly decreased (P < 0.001). Fat-free mass and RMR significantly increased with training in both groups combined (P < 0.05).
Yes they are abstracts, but I'd rather place my trust in abstracts of peer reviewed studies than the opinion of some web blogger.
I'd also be interested in why you think only full study links are valid, but the abstracts of those same studies are not? Personally I think this is just a red-herring on your part since I'm betting you already know very few full scholarly articles are available online.
In regard to your link? It's an excellent study, but meaningless in this context. You are guilty of a logical fallacy if you believe it proves anything regarding the ability to gain muscle mass when in a calorie deficit. Simply put, a study that proves lean mass was retained on a VLCD (the one you posted), does not mean lean mass cannot be gained on VLCD or any other type of caloric deficit. They are not mutually exclusive. I hope you can see that this is a bit like saying that because you personally were unable to lose weight on 1800 calories a day, therefore no one can lose on 1800 calories a day. Obviously we know that's not true.
In regard to this statement:
I already explained where it comes from, but perhaps you couldn't be bothered to read that either?Food for thought: where do you think the energy comes from for obese individuals to gain LBM?
What I see here is a classic case of confirmation bias. I also used to believe what you did until I was presented by the evidence. You have a choice, continue to only believe those things that match your beliefs, or open you mind to the fact that you may be wrong and actually investigate the truth.0 -
The only thing "different" about those people is they are WHINERS! No excuses!0
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The key is to identify the factors and to know you have them, but there isn't always a solution, just a patch up and acceptance. Tell my friend who has MS or my colleague who is diminishing before my eyes because of cancer consuming calories.Some people have diseases or allergies that causes them to not metabolize things the same as others. I'm sorry, but everyone is genetically pre-dis-positioned differently and because of our genetic makeup, no single person on earth should follow the same diet as everyone else. You don't tell a hypoglycemic person to go on a low carb diet; you also don't tell person who just had cardiovascular surgery to go on a high fat diet.
The article mentioned that and accounted for it. It's talking about people who are not genetically pre-dispositioned for diabetes, insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome, and other things that have a direct effect on fat storage.
However, once those syndromes are under control via medication, the "lower your calories, lose weight" formula applies the same as it does for everyone else. That's what the article is addressing.
I agree that there are those who think they might be special (or on the long tail of a bell shaped curve for a given factor) and are fobbing. But for those who have to manage an identified condition then this is not motivating and reduces the struggles we have.
I'm sad and my snowflake melted into an ice cube.
Jasmin0 -
:-) A MUST READ0
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*sigh*
Ah, the *sigh* technique, yes that will definitely make up for any and all logical fallacies and conjecture on your part. So let's stick to facts here. These are quotes from the abstracts I posted:Although less commonly used, resistance exercise appears to prevent loss of or even increase muscle mass during energy restriction.Physical training in the group of obese men resulted in a decrease of body fat, a further increase of lean body mass, an increase of fast twitch, aerobic type, muscle fibres as well as lower plasma insulin, cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations and lower blood pressure.In the obese RTWL group (n = 7), body weight, fat mass, and percent body fat were significantly decreased (P < 0.001). Fat-free mass and RMR significantly increased with training in both groups combined (P < 0.05).
Yes they are abstracts, but I'd rather place my trust in abstracts of peer reviewed studies than the opinion of some web blogger.
I'd also be interested in why you think only full study links are valid, but the abstracts of those same studies are not? Personally I think this is just a red-herring on your part since I'm betting you already know very few full scholarly articles are available online.
In regard to your link? It's an excellent study, but meaningless in this context. You are guilty of a logical fallacy if you believe it proves anything regarding the ability to gain muscle mass when in a calorie deficit. Simply put, a study that proves lean mass was retained on a VLCD (the one you posted), does not mean lean mass cannot be gained on VLCD or any other type of caloric deficit. They are not mutually exclusive. I hope you can see that this is a bit like saying that because you personally were unable to lose weight on 1800 calories a day, therefore no one can lose on 1800 calories a day. Obviously we know that's not true.
In regard to this statement:
I already explained where it comes from, but perhaps you couldn't be bothered to read that either?Food for thought: where do you think the energy comes from for obese individuals to gain LBM?
What I see here is a classic case of confirmation bias. I also used to believe what you did until I was presented by the evidence. You have a choice, continue to only believe those things that match your beliefs, or open you mind to the fact that you may be wrong and actually investigate the truth.
One of the points which you are totally missing here is that abstracts do not give all the data of a study and are indeed often summaries of more than one study.
What I was trying to get you to understand is that if fat stores are used for energy which in turn leads to LBM gains - there is still a loss of total mass - something I do not see the article as saying is impossible. If you would be so kind as to provide links that give peer reviewed studies that show otherwise I would be grateful as I am actually always open to new information.
I would also be very grateful for you pointing out exactly where I have a logical fallacy in my post.0 -
Of course not, they are summaries. I've yet to read both a summary and a full article that disagreed with each other, however.One of the points which you are totally missing here is that abstracts do not give all the data of a study and are indeed often summaries of more than one study.What I was trying to get you to understand is that if fat stores are used for energy which in turn leads to LBM gains - there is still a loss of total mass - something I do not see the article as saying is impossible. If you would be so kind as to provide links that give peer reviewed studies that show otherwise I would be grateful as I am actually always open to new information.
I don't think I ever said someone would gain weight on a calorie restricted diet. If you thought so, I think you may have been seeing something that's not there. What I took issue with was the statement in the original post that one COULD NOT gain LBM on a calorie restricted diet. I think I've been able to show that it can and does happen all the time. It's generally a phenomenon that's restricted to the obese or morbidly obese that are new to resistance training, but it DOES happen.I would also be very grateful for you pointing out exactly where I have a logical fallacy in my post.
Certainly: you posted a study that showed LBM was retained on a calorie restricted diet and felt this was proof LBM could not be gained on a calorie restricted diet. This is a non sequitur.0 -
Of course not, they are summaries. I've yet to read both a summary and a full article that disagreed with each other, however.One of the points which you are totally missing here is that abstracts do not give all the data of a study and are indeed often summaries of more than one study.What I was trying to get you to understand is that if fat stores are used for energy which in turn leads to LBM gains - there is still a loss of total mass - something I do not see the article as saying is impossible. If you would be so kind as to provide links that give peer reviewed studies that show otherwise I would be grateful as I am actually always open to new information.
I don't think I ever said someone would gain weight on a calorie restricted diet. If you thought so, I think you may have been seeing something that's not there. What I took issue with was the statement in the original post that one COULD NOT gain LBM on a calorie restricted diet. I think I've been able to show that it can and does happen all the time. It's generally a phenomenon that's restricted to the obese or morbidly obese that are new to resistance training, but it DOES happen.I would also be very grateful for you pointing out exactly where I have a logical fallacy in my post.
Certainly: you posted a study that showed LBM was retained on a calorie restricted diet and felt this was proof LBM could not be gained on a calorie restricted diet. This is a non sequitur.
And we are back to my original comment. Unless I am totally misreading the article it does not say what you are saying it says.
Which, by the way, makes my post of the study relevant.0 -
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0
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Good God there's a name from the past....Lyle McDonald. Got his book, Ketogenic Diet, on my bookshelf. Back in the Dark Ages of Usenet he was a voice of reason on the dieting and body building groups. A snarky, mean as hell voice of reason, but a voice of reason nonetheless.
He was right then, he's right now. Those who want to lose weight have to ditch the BS weight upstairs first.0 -
People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake0 -
I suggest you read the article more carefully.
Why? I got to this part and knew he just makes stuff up that suits his purposes. Just because something "sounds right", or "makes sense" doesn't make it true:You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
What could I hope to gain here? This is obviously just someone's opinion without any facts to back it up. Sorry, I don't need any more opinions, there are more than enough of those to go round already.
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.0 -
I believe you guys are argueing the same point. The articles pertain to obese individuals. Total bodymass will decrease at a deficit, however in the obese individual LBM will increase IF and ONLY IF strength/resistance training is being done.0
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I suggest you read the article more carefully.
Why? I got to this part and knew he just makes stuff up that suits his purposes. Just because something "sounds right", or "makes sense" doesn't make it true:You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
What could I hope to gain here? This is obviously just someone's opinion without any facts to back it up. Sorry, I don't need any more opinions, there are more than enough of those to go round already.
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
THANK YOU
That was exactly my point but obviously I was not making it very well.0 -
Let us be clear here:
The body can convert proteins to carbohydrates (its called deanimation and is done in the presence of biotin in the liver)
It can do the reverse too but NOT for essential amino acids
The body can convert carboydrate (simple) into fats using a reduction mechanism
It can do the reverse but NOT for essential Fatty Acids
There are no essential carbs as glucose can be made by the body
Essential Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are taken in via digestion (that is why they are called essential)
The body can therefore convert fats into proteins and visa versa apart from those classified as essential, and it does so via a carbohydrate metabolic path. Once essential fats and aminos are broken down to carbs then the only way to get them again is in the diet. We need these regularly!
There is thus a route to convert muscle to fat and visa versa but essential aminos or fats are needed to do it. If they aren't in the diet, then the body will acquire them from other parts of the body first. It leaves Brain, Nerves,Heart and Gut till last.
Thus provoding the body has the minimum essential amino acids (the building blocks of protein) it can build muscle in the presence of fat stores. It prefers easier routes but can do it and it prefers to build endurance muscle types and smooth muscle (heart and gut) rather than explosive muscle (body building fibre). It will preserve smooth muscle first if there is a shortage of Essential Aminos and does this before protecting any other organ and may cannibalise muscles (skeletal) for Essential Aminos if need b to preserve the heart. .
Similarly the body will preserve myelin sheath on nerves and brain than subcutaneous fat.
This is in extremis of course since even those below BMR are often eating enough essenial amino and fat for bodily function. Personally I would like to keep my organs rather than build sexy muscles.
Jasmin0 -
They see me trollin'
Of course not, they are summaries. I've yet to read both a summary and a full article that disagreed with each other, however.One of the points which you are totally missing here is that abstracts do not give all the data of a study and are indeed often summaries of more than one study.What I was trying to get you to understand is that if fat stores are used for energy which in turn leads to LBM gains - there is still a loss of total mass - something I do not see the article as saying is impossible. If you would be so kind as to provide links that give peer reviewed studies that show otherwise I would be grateful as I am actually always open to new information.
I don't think I ever said someone would gain weight on a calorie restricted diet. If you thought so, I think you may have been seeing something that's not there. What I took issue with was the statement in the original post that one COULD NOT gain LBM on a calorie restricted diet. I think I've been able to show that it can and does happen all the time. It's generally a phenomenon that's restricted to the obese or morbidly obese that are new to resistance training, but it DOES happen.I would also be very grateful for you pointing out exactly where I have a logical fallacy in my post.
Certainly: you posted a study that showed LBM was retained on a calorie restricted diet and felt this was proof LBM could not be gained on a calorie restricted diet. This is a non sequitur.
The Lyle McD = broscience was a little over the top IMO, but you got some good responses so I'll give you 6/100 -
You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?0 -
bump0
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Lyle McDonald is the best.100% dead on every time0
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You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:0 -
I think you're missing the point. Our basic physiology is the same, with some variables set higher or lower.People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake0 -
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Great article0
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Great article.......I am not different.....just diet resistant.....0
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People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake
So, rather than insulting everyone that agrees with the post, why don't you point out what you do not specifically?0 -
No one should make excuses, and MANY people fool themselves into hopelessness, but people certainly do have vast metabolic differences when it comes to muscle gain(especially) and fat loss.0
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At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, or perhaps to demonstrate your pomposity. Luckily, I think most can see that plainly. For those that can't, I just pointed it out. Carry on.You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?0 -
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:
So it sounds like we may be closer together on this issue that you realize. I'm not saying EVERYTHING he wrote is incorrect, but I do have 2 serious issues with his article:
1. The aforementioned statement that you can't gain LBM eating at a deficit. (I'll get to this in a minute), and
2. The remainder of the article where he talks about how some people are different, yet then goes on to say no one is different.
I think the reason I find this so offensive is because there is quite a bit of information that comes out of the bodybuilding world (such as most of this author's stuff), that simply DOES NOT APPLY to those of us that are more than 30 lbs overweight. Tons of people on MFP post stuff that may be great advice for someone trying to go from 12% to 8% BF, but is terrible advice for an obese person. The reverse is also true. Physiologically, there are some serious hormonal differences between an obese body and one just carrying a few extra pounds. As a result, we just can't make these type of generalizations. An example would be statements like "it's all about thermodynamics, just eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight." It sounds good, but it discounts the fact that our bodies are not just simple machines that respond exactly the same every time. Even the author know that or he wouldn't have made his money hyping various modified eating plans, macro requirements, etc,, and wouldn't have talked at length in this article about how some people have to really struggle to lose fat.
As to the quote that started my rant (yes I recognize it as such),
That is quoted from the article and is the place where I got so turned off by this guys stuff. I could easily re-write this sentence without changing the meaning by simply eliminating the parenthetical statement and instead putting it where the antecedent "something" is at: "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle or fat out of nothing." Further, just to clarify, if you remove the words "or fat" from the statement it becomes "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle out of nothing."You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
This is still the same statement. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but I suppose it's because you're a fan of this author.0 -
No one should make excuses, and MANY people fool themselves into hopelessness, but people certainly do have vast metabolic differences when it comes to muscle gain(especially) and fat loss.
Well said.0
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