Rrrrrrrr... DOCTORS!

Marll

I tend to say that doctors are idiots and I mean it fully.

There have been so many issues with SO many doctors that my wife has visited over the last few years that it makes me crazy! I could go through it all and give examples but this post would turn into a gigantic wall of text.

Needless to say that while you still have to be on your toes, we've had MUCH better luck with naturopath doctors actually LISTENING to what she has to say, does the appropriate tests, takes time to interpret them and provide her with treatment options, with plenty of follow up and reliance on drugs only when it makes sense.

Luck and naturopath - two words meant for each other.

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?





Medicine

I would consider alternative medicine more along the lines of hippy nonsense and herbal remedies for everything. At least in my state naturopaths are fully licensed to perscribe perscription medications (my wife is on 2 thyroid replacements synthetics).

The big difference here is that while you may attribute it to dumb luck, I think that they are more willing to test and analyze everything before making a decision, or formulating a plan of no action.

Marll

I agree, and I have no agenda. Just an average woman who has a physical once a year.

All the years I was overweight by 60 pounds - never a word about "Lose some weight." So I have the opposite gripe. Instead of treating the cause, I was being treated for the symptoms.

Reflux? Here, have this $1,800 procedure.

Knee pain? How about physical therapy, X-Rays, MRIs, surgery? $4,700 later......

Constant migraines? Here, let's try (no joke - over the years,) "Let's try antidepressants, beta blockers, anti-seizure meds, or all-at-once." ..add in a rotating pharmacoepia of specific expensive drugs to take when the above prophyllactic measures failed.

Back pain? *see knee pain above. Only I didn't do the surgery this time. I was getting smarter.

Fast forward. Lost the 60 pounds. Took myself off all the drugs. I'm fine. NO thanks to you, Ms. Medical Doctor. I don't even talk to her about my issues anymore....oh, wait, what issues?

Whatever happened to nutrition and exercise? Cures just about anything. Oh yeah, can't make any money off that.

And, most people are not going to lose the weight no matter what you tell them. Not that doctors shouldn't still mention that x problem would be greatly improved if you were able to lose y amount of weight, but in reality most overweight people either stay overweight or become obese.

That may be true as well, and I'm sure occurs more often than not, but maybe doctors should take more of an interest, or refer patients to people that will, in WHY that person is overweight. It's not always because of crap diet and laziness (though sometimes it is).

My wife has back problems that certainly aren't helped by weight. She was dieting, exercising as much as she could, and in the same space of time that I lost over 60lbs she lost 10lbs eating the exact same things, just less of whatever I ate. Every doctor and endo would pull blood work and just tell her she's "normal" and "fine" and that she's just lazy and fat because she has no willpower (anyone that's ever met her would debate otherwise).

It's getting on track now, but it took what most consider an alternative doctor to actually read the results of the blood work and determine that she had a thyroid condition, insulin resistance, blood sugar in the Type 2 diabetes range and what appears to be a potential autoimmune disorder related to thyroid. "Regular" doctors didn't even discuss any of these results with her, and she was in the dark that anything was going on. Negligence at best, criminal at worst.

This is not an isolated incident either, she's seen close to 15 doctors and all it took was one visit to a good naturopath to get results. If a 1 in 15 rate is what you need to find a good doctor, I stand by my "Idiots" label for them.

Bakkasan

I'm sorry, I would tell him to clarify himself as to what he expects you to lose, then inform him this will be the last time I visit him as I have zero confidence in his education. Just because you can pass a test does not make you competent.

I have had the pill pushing 400lb doctor before. Now I have a decent doctor who is willing to look at info I bring in if I have any, and knows his limits. One of them is not blindly follow scales more suited to third world nutrition than a person who is even slightly muscular.

mlb929

I'm not a fan of the medical field for many reasons.... IE .... the phone call I got when my son was 3 "we think he may have leukemia, you need to get him into a Dr immediately", from his pediatricians office at 4:00 PM on a Friday night.... or "we only want to admit your son because there are presently no other patients in our Peds ward, but he doesn't have pneumonia or RSV... and was admitted by his pediatrician 12 hours later to a different hospital with pneumonia and RSV....last week the mole the dr told my husband was not cancerous, but removed it anyway "because I know your wife ersonally and know she would rather be safe about it" turned out to be an aggressive form of skin cancer. ....

I think that's why it's the Practice of Medicine - I believe that our health care and options are totally within our own hands, none of us should blindly believe what any medical practitioner tells us at face value, the resources are there with the internet that it's up to us to really determine our own fate of our health.

One of my favorite things I've ever heard is that Drs, lawyers, MBA's, etc... are not smarter because they have a degree, they just are the ones who had the determination to get through it. I think people with college educations are considered more knowledgeable, maybe book smarter but not true when it comes to retaining, repeating, or applying the information. I'm married to a person with a doctorate degree, yet sometimes am amazed at the lack of pure common sense, LOL. This seems like one of those common sense moments.

Azdak

Lol, he's a friend, not my husband. I am a husband to a female of the opposite sex.

:huh:

<twisting my brain into knots trying to figure out exactly what a "female of the opposite sex" would be......> :laugh:

wobegon

Your going to see a lot of this type stuff due to new government regulations. Everything is now online and automated. The doctors input your numbers and they are told what you have to work on and what tests to do. If they don't comply then they will get in trouble. All the doctors at my clinic HATE this new system.

????? Where is this supposedly happening?

It is happening almost everywhere medicaid and medicare are being accepted, but is being applied to all patients. It is called "Meaningful Use"

MoveTheMountain

Mainstream medicine or one particular doctor........if you want horror stories about alternative medicine let me know.

Mainstream medicine - this guy isn't an outlyer. About 7 years ago, I saw a doctor because I had backpain. He took a quick x-ray and tried to schedule spinal surgery. I told him 'hold on there,' and left. Basically, I needed to get in better shape and wear better shoes. I dropped 30 pounds, and the backpain mysteriously vanished. But how many people have had discs in their back fused for absolutely no reason? For lots of people, a doctor tells you that you need a procedure, they just take their word for it and show up at the hospital.

So you're suggesting that all mainstream practitioners should be held in disrepute based on a couple of anecdotes? (BTW, I'm not defending the doctor who suggested your friend lose weight, I'm just curious why you're tarring all mainstream medical practitioners with the same brush - what's your agenda?)

Sorry, my friend, no agenda. Just frustrated that the people who are supposed to be well trained to give us medical advice blow it with such painful frequency - supported by many of the other posts on this thread.

And you know what you call enough anecdotes?

Data.

garvstone

I had the worst dr. experience of my life recently. You can read about it here:

https://plus.google.com/106731026812932173755/about

I actually have filed a complaint with the med board. On a side note I am down almost 30lbs, and my bp and fasting blood glucose numbers are normal from diet and exersize. I had to stop all my med because of this guy.

_VoV

My doctor literally blaims everything on my weight. Oh, you have a headache? Its cause you're fat. You broke your arm? Fatty. But I've lost 35 pounds and she hasn't even acknowledged it. As if my self esteem wasn't low enough. I don't need this wench telling me all my problems are because I'm overweight when I know they're not.

I have encountered this same thing. One primary doctor I had years ago talked about his sister as though she had some horrible condition, and would never live a normal life. I felt sad for him, so I asked 'What is happening to your sister?' He responded that she was obese. I fired him on the spot, and never went back. Who needs a doctor who sees me as a pitiful case, who is living like those wretched chained Mer-people in that old Disney movie the 'Littlest Mermaid'?

The best doctor-patient relationships are collaborative and honor the intelligence of both people. Unfortunately, I think this will only be available to those who can afford concierge care in the US. The demographics and economic realities in our country make me fear for the state of health care in the near future.

MoveTheMountain

I hate to say it, but a big part of the problem seems to be how we educate our doctors. And I have to say, I will never understand why it's so difficult to get into medical school... we'd be better off if there were more doctors - more supply would mean more time to meet with patients due to reduced patient load, etc. Of course someone is going to make a crack about how if we open the doors to everyone, there would be 'less intelligent/capable' doctors out there giving even worse advice, but I highly doubt it. I'm afan of letting anyone give it a shot, but if they flunk out, then they flunk out. Just because you let someone into medical school doesn't mean they'll make it through. So let them in, give it a shot.

Following my own logic, of course, that would mean we'd need more medical schools, at least for a while... but I think that could be worked out. And to answer my own question, I'm guessing the reason this will never happen is that the medical profession wants to maintain their self perception of being somehow part of an elite group. I wonder if they know how incompetent we think so many of them are?

Getting back to the point of how we educate doctors, how is that, for a profession whose oath is founded on 'first do no harm,' they spend almost no time on exercise, wellness, nutrition, etc? At least for FPs and GPs - I can definitely see why a neuro-surgeon, etc., would have to focus on other things. But a general practitioner should be *all about* the health. And health means nutrition and exercise, first and foremost.

Edit to add: No, I am not a frustrated ex-medical school applicant who didn't get in, and now I'm taking it out on the profession that rejected me. I have never wanted to be a doctor, no way , no how. Not my bag. But, for those whose bag it is, I wish they were better trained.

neverstray

I hate to say it, but a big part of the problem seems to be how we educate our doctors. And I have to say, I will never understand why it's so difficult to get into medical school... we'd be better off if there were more doctors - more supply would mean more time to meet with patients due to reduced patient load, etc. Of course someone is going to make a crack about how if we open the doors to everyone, there would be 'less intelligent/capable' doctors out there giving even worse advice, but I highly doubt it. I'm afan of letting anyone give it a shot, but if they flunk out, then they flunk out. Just because you let someone into medical school doesn't mean they'll make it through. So let them in, give it a shot.

Following my own logic, of course, that would mean we'd need more medical schools, at least for a while... but I think that could be worked out. And to answer my own question, I'm guessing the reason this will never happen is that the medical profession wants to maintain their self perception of being somehow part of an elite group. I wonder if they know how incompetent we think so many of them are?

Getting back to the point of how we educate doctors, how is that, for a profession whose oath is founded on 'first do no harm,' they spend almost no time on exercise, wellness, nutrition, etc? At least for FPs and GPs - I can definitely see why a neuro-surgeon, etc., would have to focus on other things. But a general practitioner should be *all about* the health. And health means nutrition and exercise, first and foremost.

Edit to add: No, I am not a frustrated ex-medical school applicant who didn't get in, and now I'm taking it out on the profession that rejected me. I have never wanted to be a doctor, no way , no how. Not my bag. But, for those whose bag it is, I wish they were better trained.

You ask a good question, and one that is highly complex.

1. A doctor is a business. They have to turn a profit. They are profit maximizers. Therefore, they try to do things in an efficient way. That efficiency requires looking at common factors and applying those common factors to all. IMO, this is always a mistake... however, everyone makes it all the time, businesses, government, etc. Typically services that handle each and every client liek an individual tend to be higher-end business and those clients pay a premium for that kind of customized service.
2. When you look across at a population, there are going to be certain things that pop out. Like, most people do not eat right. Most people do not exercise. Most people do not want the answer to be, "I am not going to give you blood pressure pills, I am going to put you on a diet. When you lose about 20 lbs, I predict you will no longer have high blood pressure. So, you will no longer need pills. When you lose the balance of the unneeded weight, you will no longer have any medical issues and will no longer need me at all." Now, that's the right message, but most people will not accept that. Most people just want the pills. When someone goes in for sleep problems, what doctor tells you, "You need to figure out what is bothering you in your life. Resolve it. And, then you will get sleep"? Mine told me that. I go to a more holistic doctor, and he will not issue perscriptions easily. But, I'm weird and I like that kind of advice. It's not always what I want to hear at the moment, but he was right. Most doctors will just prescribe pills to help with sleep because most of their pateints want that.
3. Because of the for-profit nature of being a doctor, it is not in their best interest to make people healthy.
4. Pharma companies now advertise directly to patients who go in and demand medication. Doctors prescribe antibiotics all the time when they knwo for a fact it does nothing, but a paying client is demanding the drug. Doctors should say no. But, they are a for-profit business. The patient will just go somewhere else and get it. So, they give in.
5. I have to get backl to work now, but there's more.

MoveTheMountain

You ask a good question, and one that is highly complex.

1. A doctor is a business. They have to turn a profit. They are profit maximizers. Therefore, they try to do things in an efficient way. That efficiency requires looking at common factors and applying those common factors to all. IMO, this is always a mistake... however, everyone makes it all the time, businesses, government, etc. Typically services that handle each and every client liek an individual tend to be higher-end business and those clients pay a premium for that kind of customized service.
2. When you look across at a population, there are going to be certain things that pop out. Like, most people do not eat right. Most people do not exercise. Most people do not want the answer to be, "I am not going to give you blood pressure pills, I am going to put you on a diet. When you lose about 20 lbs, I predict you will no longer have high blood pressure. So, you will no longer need pills. When you lose the balance of the unneeded weight, you will no longer have any medical issues and will no longer need me at all." Now, that's the right message, but most people will not accept that. Most people just want the pills. When someone goes in for sleep problems, what doctor tells you, "You need to figure out what is bothering you in your life. Resolve it. And, then you will get sleep"? Mine told me that. I go to a more holistic doctor, and he will not issue perscriptions easily. But, I'm weird and I like that kind of advice. It's not always what I want to hear at the moment, but he was right. Most doctors will just prescribe pills to help with sleep because most of their pateints want that.
3. Because of the for-profit nature of being a doctor, it is not in their best interest to make people healthy.
4. Pharma companies now advertise directly to patients who go in and demand medication. Doctors prescribe antibiotics all the time when they knwo for a fact it does nothing, but a paying client is demanding the drug. Doctors should say no. But, they are a for-profit business. The patient will just go somewhere else and get it. So, they give in.
5. I have to get backl to work now, but there's more.

Agree with everything you're saying, and it makes me sad. (Including the part about getting back to work - I need to do that, too...)

The sleep example is an excellent one. Whenever I talk to someone who is having sleep problems, I ask, "what's bothering you?" That's going to be the cause 99% of the time. Pills to help you sleep are just diversions that keep the person from learning to manage their stress in a healthy way, or confront something working its way through their subconcious.

kathyszoo

I told my primary in June, right about the time that I started really getting serious on MFP, that I was eating better, frustrated that I could not exercise because of health problems and asked about how much effect menopause had on trying to lose weight. Her first response was to suggest weight loss surgery. No offering suggestions abt. eating or any encouragement that I could do this on my own! I was floored, yes I have quite a bit to lose but also have bad side effects from anesthesia and it's hard to for the anesthesiologist to intubate me! She knew all this because of my previous rotator/bicep repair surgery! Since June, with the help of MFP, lifestyle changes and many supportive friends on here, I've already lost 17 lbs. and a few inches! This is where I learned about chair exercises and chair yoga, which have helped immensely since I'm recovering from foot surgery. I didn't get any good advice or help from my primary. The only reason I haven't switched doctors yet is because I want to show her she was dead wrong when I do go back next! Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good doctors out there. I have encountered a few, both were specialists. My podiatrist and my orthopedic doctor. Boy, did it feel good to vent! Thanks for listening! Also, I'm not bashing weight loss surgery either. I know it does have good results from some people. It just was never an option for me.