Bod Pod Sadness

runfreddyrun

So I went to the Bod Pod today. I started MFP 6 weeks ago and wanted to get a good baseline to make sure my calories were right. I did the Bod Pod 13 months ago. Then, I was 8lbs lighter and my BF was 49%. I knew I had gained a little weight since then but I have been strength training for the past 6 weeks and I hoped it would come out about the same.

Wrong.

It was 54.3%! This just floored me. And then it made me sad. How can 8 lbs have such an effect on BF?

I redid all my numbers and my BMR went from about 1371 to 1263 but the Fat2Fit site says that for moderate activity my calories should be the same. How can this be correct?

I also redid my numbers on HeyBales XLS spreadsheet and with the same moderate activity level, my calories decreased about 250.

Which number should I go by?

Weight: 199
BF: 54.3
Age: 40
Height: 5'4
Activity: Moderate

I'm hoping I can get away with a 25 or 30% cut from TDEE.

Thanks!

nxd10

Are you really moderately active? You are about my age and that choice changes the multiplier used to adjust how many calories you need. Because my metabolism got slower when I got older I am pretty active but put myself down as sedentary.

runfreddyrun

Are you really moderately active? You are about my age and that choice changes the multiplier used to adjust how many calories you need. Because my metabolism got slower when I got older I am pretty active but put myself down as sedentary.

I go to the gym 3x a week and do elliptical for 20-25 minutes and then strength training for 60-65 minutes, totaling 4.5 hours per week. In addition to that I walk the dog a few times a week for about 45 minutes (2 miles at about 3mph).

And for the next few weeks at least I'm biking for an hour once or twice a week.

That seems moderate to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

Helloitsdan

So I went to the Bod Pod today. I started MFP 6 weeks ago and wanted to get a good baseline to make sure my calories were right. I did the Bod Pod 13 months ago. Then, I was 8lbs lighter and my BF was 49%. I knew I had gained a little weight since then but I have been strength training for the past 6 weeks and I hoped it would come out about the same.

Wrong.

It was 54.3%! This just floored me. And then it made me sad. How can 8 lbs have such an effect on BF?

I redid all my numbers and my BMR went from about 1371 to 1263 but the Fat2Fit site says that for moderate activity my calories should be the same. How can this be correct?

I also redid my numbers on HeyBales XLS spreadsheet and with the same moderate activity level, my calories decreased about 250.

Which number should I go by?

Weight: 199
BF: 54.3
Age: 40
Height: 5'4
Activity: Moderate

I'm hoping I can get away with a 25 or 30% cut from TDEE.

Thanks!

BMR 1269
TDEE appx 1967

Id cut to 1500 daily and try to restrict workouts to only an hour.
Cardio is great for reducing calories but weight lifting will better effect p-ratio on where the nutrients go.
Fat or muscle?
Lift heavy.

4000th post.

nxd10

It is moderately active if you don't log your exercise. It is not if you do.

omma_to_3

Are you sure that BMR is right? When I had my Bod Pod testing done, I was a little less than you (same height) and I'm 37. My BF was quite a bit lower (39.2%) but the same day I also had my RMR tested. It was 1662. Yours just sounds so low! I think the calculators tell me mine should have been 1450 to 1550.

runfreddyrun

Are you sure that BMR is right? When I had my Bod Pod testing done, I was a little less than you (same height) and I'm 37. My BF was quite a bit lower (39.2%) but the same day I also had my RMR tested. It was 1662. Yours just sounds so low! I think the calculators tell me mine should have been 1450 to 1550.

it's very strange but it must be based on BF percentage. before today i was operating under the assumption that my BF was 49 percent and the fat2fit calculated my RMR/BMR as over 100 calories higher.

i guess fat needs less calories to operate on than muscle does. that sort of makes sense.

who knows what calculation the bod pod machine uses to come up with RMR but i know it is within 5 calories of the BMR calculation i got from fat2fit.com

heybales

Are you sure that BMR is right? When I had my Bod Pod testing done, I was a little less than you (same height) and I'm 37. My BF was quite a bit lower (39.2%) but the same day I also had my RMR tested. It was 1662. Yours just sounds so low! I think the calculators tell me mine should have been 1450 to 1550.

it's very strange but it must be based on BF percentage. before today i was operating under the assumption that my BF was 49 percent and the fat2fit calculated my RMR/BMR as over 100 calories higher.

i guess fat needs less calories to operate on than muscle does. that sort of makes sense.

who knows what calculation the bod pod machine uses to come up with RMR but i know it is within 5 calories of the BMR calculation i got from fat2fit.com

Here's the problem with the fat2fit site's actual application of a good idea. One that I did too before I found them, and quickly discovered the same issue.

In the spreadsheet on the Future You tab was my method.

fat2fit asks for your bodyfat% for a more accurate BMR based on LBM. Great.

Now, what do you do about goal weight? Because the Katch BMR based on LBM has nothing to do about total weight, but rather LBM only, no age, no gender, no height. Just LBM. And to that point, it underestimates BMR when overweight, because fat is metabolically active, whole lot less than LBM, but still some.

If you assume the same LBM is kept all the way until goal weight, as the idea of eating with moderate deficit is promoting, then guess what your BMR is at goal weight?

Exactly the same as now. In other words, their idea of eating at goal weight can't be based on the more accurate BMR based on LBM, because if the LBM is the same, the BMR is the same between current and goal weight.

You would never lose weight!

So what fat2fit does is, takes your more accurate BMR based on LBM, shows you, but never uses it in any math, and then builds the chart based on the least accurate BMR calc of Harris-Benedict.

My spreadsheet though uses the Katch BMR based on LBM throughout if you provide bodyfat%. If you don't, it uses the more accurate Mifflin BMR calc.

Go with the spreadsheet. And if you haven't downloaded it in the last 2 weeks, get a fresh copy.

Newer TDEE calculator at the very bottom of the TDEE tab that takes into account the time and TYPE of exercise being done, not just hrs or days a week.

If you can swing the heavy lifting 3 times a week, and still some gentle cardio (can't go all out and ruin your repair to weight lifting), you can take the biggest deficit.

If you can't do the lifting heavy 3 times a week and still want cardio or programs, then do the % deficit method.

And no - you can't get buy with 25-30% deficit unless you feel like losing that precious LBM.
Which is exactly what you have done already, you gained 8 lbs, but % went up enough you also lost some lbs of LBM and gained actually more than 8lbs of fat.
LBM at 207 and 49% - 105.6
LBM at 199 and 54% - 91.5

So hopefully lesson learned, no steep deficit unless you feel like lowering your metabolism more than it already is.

Awkward30

Now, what do you do about goal weight? Because the Katch BMR based on LBM has nothing to do about total weight, but rather LBM only, no age, no gender, no height. Just LBM. And to that point, it underestimates BMR when overweight, because fat is metabolically active, whole lot less than LBM, but still some.

If you assume the same LBM is kept all the way until goal weight, as the idea of eating with moderate deficit is promoting, then guess what your BMR is at goal weight?

Exactly the same as now. In other words, their idea of eating at goal weight can't be based on the more accurate BMR based on LBM, because if the LBM is the same, the BMR is the same between current and goal weight.

You would never lose weight!

Are you confusing BMR and TDEE? It is correct that if you maintained LBM exactly, your calculated BMR would be the same at current weight and goal weight. So you could eat at the level of BMR (deficit then made up by daily activity/even inactivity would put TDEE above BMR) until you achieved a goal you wish to maintain, at which point you would eat more to the level of your TDEE to maintain your weight. This would be an idealized model where your metabolic rate never slows, so it wouldn't be true for most people, but it is theoretically sound

So what fat2fit does is, takes your more accurate BMR based on LBM, shows you, but never uses it in any math, and then builds the chart based on the least accurate BMR calc of Harris-Benedict.

My spreadsheet though uses the Katch BMR based on LBM throughout if you provide bodyfat%. If you don't, it uses the more accurate Mifflin BMR calc.

I see what you're saying about how fat2fit uses the inferior bmr estimation, but I don't really get why that has anything to do with the above part?

And no - you can't get buy with 25-30% deficit unless you feel like losing that precious LBM.
Which is exactly what you have done already, you gained 8 lbs, but % went up enough you also lost some lbs of LBM and gained actually more than 8lbs of fat.
LBM at 207 and 49% - 105.6
LBM at 199 and 54% - 91.5

So hopefully lesson learned, no steep deficit unless you feel like lowering your metabolism more than it already is.

Wrong math, she is currently 199 at 54% = 91.5 lb lean mass, but she was 191 (she gained 8 lb) and 49% = 97.4 lb lean mass

So she lost 6 lb of lean mass and gained 14 lb of fat.
No offense intended to the OP, but she was not eating in a deficit, I don't think she even stated that she was. She said that the original bodpod was over a year ago, she had gained weight since then and started MFP and lifting a month and a half ago.

I'm no expert, but the literature I've read suggests that with a body fat percentage in excess of 50% you can handle a large deficit. Once you get leaner though, it would be a bad idea. Since you are strength training, a -20% deficit would probably be the most conservative plan, but I doubt that -30% would be awful for a few weeks.

Best of luck!

heybales

Now, what do you do about goal weight? Because the Katch BMR based on LBM has nothing to do about total weight, but rather LBM only, no age, no gender, no height. Just LBM. And to that point, it underestimates BMR when overweight, because fat is metabolically active, whole lot less than LBM, but still some.

If you assume the same LBM is kept all the way until goal weight, as the idea of eating with moderate deficit is promoting, then guess what your BMR is at goal weight?

Exactly the same as now. In other words, their idea of eating at goal weight can't be based on the more accurate BMR based on LBM, because if the LBM is the same, the BMR is the same between current and goal weight.

You would never lose weight!

Are you confusing BMR and TDEE? It is correct that if you maintained LBM exactly, your calculated BMR would be the same at current weight and goal weight. So you could eat at the level of BMR (deficit then made up by daily activity/even inactivity would put TDEE above BMR) until you achieved a goal you wish to maintain, at which point you would eat more to the level of your TDEE to maintain your weight. This would be an idealized model where your metabolic rate never slows, so it wouldn't be true for most people, but it is theoretically sound

Well, the fat2fit site doesn't take a deficit off current TDEE, it uses your goal weight to provide daily eating goal that would be below current TDEE. You have to know what it is attempting to do.

I'm not confusing BMR and TDEE, because TDEE is based on BMR.
BMR based on LBM wouldn't change if it stayed the same to goal weight - therefore TDEE wouldn't change either.

Current LBM of 91.5 lbs. BMR of 1267. TDEE of 1964.
fat2fit method if it really used LBM at future goal weight, still 91.5. BMR still 1267. TDEE still 1964.
No weight loss.

It's why the deficit method is better than fat2fit. Their use of the Harris BMR causes an inflated BMR and TDEE, not only currently, but at goal weight too. So the weight loss would be much slower than needed, especially right now.

So what fat2fit does is, takes your more accurate BMR based on LBM, shows you, but never uses it in any math, and then builds the chart based on the least accurate BMR calc of Harris-Benedict.

My spreadsheet though uses the Katch BMR based on LBM throughout if you provide bodyfat%. If you don't, it uses the more accurate Mifflin BMR calc.

I see what you're saying about how fat2fit uses the inferior bmr estimation, but I don't really get why that has anything to do with the above part?

And no - you can't get buy with 25-30% deficit unless you feel like losing that precious LBM.
Which is exactly what you have done already, you gained 8 lbs, but % went up enough you also lost some lbs of LBM and gained actually more than 8lbs of fat.
LBM at 207 and 49% - 105.6
LBM at 199 and 54% - 91.5

So hopefully lesson learned, no steep deficit unless you feel like lowering your metabolism more than it already is.

Wrong math, she is currently 199 at 54% = 91.5 lb lean mass, but she was 191 (she gained 8 lb) and 49% = 97.4 lb lean mass

So she lost 6 lb of lean mass and gained 14 lb of fat.
No offense intended to the OP, but she was not eating in a deficit, I don't think she even stated that she was. She said that the original bodpod was over a year ago, she had gained weight since then and started MFP and lifting a month and a half ago.

I'm no expert, but the literature I've read suggests that with a body fat percentage in excess of 50% you can handle a large deficit. Once you get leaner though, it would be a bad idea. Since you are strength training, a -20% deficit would probably be the most conservative plan, but I doubt that -30% would be awful for a few weeks.

Best of luck!

Thanks for the catch of the 8lbs wrong direction. Point still stands though - lost LBM, gained even more fat than just total weight.

If that was accomplished NOT on a diet - that's pretty good, and sad of course. I'm going to guess it was, why else get a Bodpad BF% measurement in the first place. Assumption true, but still...

And the 30% would indeed be decent, if you used the BMR calcs NOT based on LBM, because then the BMR is inflated.
But with true known BF% and best estimated BMR, might as well keep it realistic. It is already underestimated since the fat metabolism isn't included in the BMR calc, so extra deficit is given there already.

Actually, from the spreadsheet, if obese, 2% of weight to be lost might be appropriate goal for a little while, until something else is bigger deficit.

runfreddyrun

i appreciate the discourse, even if i don't totally get it all. so should i be eating 1500 which is actually - 24% of TDEE? or as award30 stated, can i get away with closer to 30% for a short time (a few months). i'm not sure i want to do this as i'm feeling restricted on 1500 calories as it is.

and yes, it is sad to lose LBM and gain BF. no clue how or when this happened. i've only been doing MFP for the last 6 weeks and most if not all of that time i've been between 1450-1500 calories a day. before i started MFP i was just eating crap everyday.

btw - i got the original Bod Pod reading a year ago because i had never had one and had great intentions about trying to lose weight and improve my health. that was quickly abandoned and here i am a year later.

thanks for all the help!

runfreddyrun

on second thought - maybe i'll just stick with the 1500, unless i need to be eating more. i want to lose a little LBM as possible.

heybales

i appreciate the discourse, even if i don't totally get it all. so should i be eating 1500 which is actually - 24% of TDEE? or as award30 stated, can i get away with closer to 30% for a short time (a few months). i'm not sure i want to do this as i'm feeling restricted on 1500 calories as it is.

and yes, it is sad to lose LBM and gain BF. no clue how or when this happened. i've only been doing MFP for the last 6 weeks and most if not all of that time i've been between 1450-1500 calories a day. before i started MFP i was just eating crap everyday.

btw - i got the original Bod Pod reading a year ago because i had never had one and had great intentions about trying to lose weight and improve my health. that was quickly abandoned and here i am a year later.

thanks for all the help!

Since your BMR and hopefully honest TDEE level estimate is based on known measured bodyfat%, stay at 1500 or actually higher I think.

How did you lose LBM? So you did diet last year for a little bit? Probably during that little bit. It is easy to burn off muscle if you jumped into a huge deficit diet compared to previous eating level, and start exercising like crazy.
So during that quick intentions time, you indeed could have done it, plus the time back to MFP lately.
Easy to lose a lb of muscle a week.

So you see the numbers, anything under TDEE is weight loss, anything over is gain.
The only question is, what is real TDEE for your level of activity?
Easiest way is to start high for the daily goal, see how much weight you lose each week or two for about a month, and that will tell you.