Crossfit women's bodies - what's going on?

anemoneprose

Can someone please cut through bias & tell me what it is about CF makes those bodies amazing-looking?

Just interested in a breakdown, really. I'm acquainted with the pro/con CF arguments/rationale. I'm after a pragmatic take on what it is that actually happens in those gyms to make such attractive people.

Because I don't know, but it seems there's some kind of recomposition effect. Or something else convincing enough to look like it. I don't think there's an obvious 'cut' and 'bulk' type phasing, unless I'm missing something.

Here's what I think I know:

1) Food: the Paleo diet's most often advised, so that means, high protein & *probably* lower calorie, but I assume that most people eat at least maintenance calories. Dense nutrition, basically.

2) High volume, high intensity strength training under time constraints = some aerobic stuff as well as strength/mass.

3) Intervals (calisthenics, running, rowing, endurance lifting)

Now, I am one careful cathy, so I'm not about to join or even try anything like this. But I am super curious.

Determinednoob

They do resistance training and eat in a way that makes them lose\not gain fat. Safer\less restrictive ways to do both exist.

DopeItUp

They do fairly intense training and eat appropriately. There's no magic to it. You can get the same or better effects doing almost any kind of lifting program with some circuit training and eating well.

anemoneprose

Right, but the figure athletes who do more traditional strength training to get similar aesthetic results seem to do more of the 'bulk'/'cut' thing.

In CF, it'll be the circuit training that makes the difference, right?

(I am super pro safety, you have no idea

IronSmasher

Although there are other communities that encourage women to workout hard, they are all too rare.

anemoneprose

They do resistance training and eat in a way that makes them lose\not gain fat. Safer\less restrictive ways to do both exist.

Re food, you mean high protein @ maintenance?

What do you mean by 'restrictive' - the cutting out of an entire food group? (Though to be fair, carb/calorie cycling's also done in bodybuilding, no?)

anemoneprose

Although there are other communities that encourage women to workout hard, they are all too rare.

It's just the intensity, you think?

DavPul

This question is too easy. Their busting their @$$, that's what's going on. Strength and endurance training to the max. Will that work? Every single time. Can you get hurt trying that stuff? Quite possible. Is it worth it? Totally up to you to decide.

I'm going to go a step further and say it's very likely you'll get hurt. That's because EVERYONE who trains at a moderate level or higher gets hurt at some point. The higher the training level, the closer you are to getting hurt on your very next rep. I don't do Crossfit, but I've had 2 knee surgeries, completely severed my achilles, and ripped my left pec clean off my shoulder. And those are just the scalpel-requiring injuries. There's 1000s of posts on this site by people that only do light jogging but suffered knee injuries.

Personally, I like the Crossfit stuff. Anything that's balls to the wall gets me fired up.

DavPul

Tumbler devoted to the women of Crossfit

http://thrustr.tumblr.com/

anemoneprose

This question is too easy. Their busting their @$$, that's what's going on. Strength and endurance training to the max. Will that work? Every single time. Can you get hurt trying that stuff? Quite possible. Is it worth it? Totally up to you to decide.

I'm going to go a step further and say it's very likely you'll get hurt. That's because EVERYONE who trains at a moderate level or higher gets hurt at some point. The higher the training level, the closer you are to getting hurt on your very next rep. I don't do Crossfit, but I've had 2 knee surgeries, completely severed my achilles, and ripped my left pec clean off my shoulder. And those are just the scalpel-requiring injuries. There's 1000s of posts on this site by people that only do light jogging but suffered knee injuries.

Personally, I like the Crossfit stuff. Anything that's balls to the wall gets me fired up.

Um, wow. Curiosity shifted to what the hell you did to tear off your pec!

I've had my share of milder injuries, nothing so show-offy

Refocus, then - are there any safe ways to approximate those results?

Does the old-school stuff bear up? (Thinking of: 1 hr LISS every day for recovery/cals burned, + heavy weights - i.e. 4-6 rep range)

anemoneprose

Tumbler devoted to the women of Crossfit

http://thrustr.tumblr.com/

Yeah, they look fantastic, I know

chsmith79

This question is too easy. Their busting their @$$, that's what's going on. Strength and endurance training to the max. Will that work? Every single time. Can you get hurt trying that stuff? Quite possible. Is it worth it? Totally up to you to decide.

I'm going to go a step further and say it's very likely you'll get hurt. That's because EVERYONE who trains at a moderate level or higher gets hurt at some point. The higher the training level, the closer you are to getting hurt on your very next rep. I don't do Crossfit, but I've had 2 knee surgeries, completely severed my achilles, and ripped my left pec clean off my shoulder. And those are just the scalpel-requiring injuries. There's 1000s of posts on this site by people that only do light jogging but suffered knee injuries.

Personally, I like the Crossfit stuff. Anything that's balls to the wall gets me fired up.

^^^THIS^^^
There is a risk of injury, but I love it. I do CF at home. You will find a lot of CF haters out there. I started with a 2 week beginner course. I found it online and contacted the local CF affiliate. They were very helpful and supportive. They told me any Sat. I could make it I could come for free! I went after my first 2 weeks and felt absolutely destroyed. Thus I fell in love. It is awesome I stay in contact with them and call or email them with any questions and they are very helpful. I would go I just can't justify $130/mo right now.

waldo56

Not really a secret here. When they go, they go to the max. They use real resistance, not little pink dumbbells.

Work your hind end off several times a week and become an absolute fitness addict (as a solid % of CFers are) and the results will follow.

Appearance is a consequence of fitness. They look like that because they're fit as can be. I'm not a Crossfitter and don't really agree with many of their philosophies, but at least respect the heck out of the fact that there is no secret to success with them, they take no shortcuts, their results are a product of dedication, sweat, and tears.

Train like an athlete and oddly enough you'll begin to look like one eventually.

DavPul

Um, wow. Curiosity shifted to what the hell you did to tear off your pec!

Doc said it's a very rare injury that only happens one of two ways. Linebackers tear them while making tackles, lifters tear them during heavy bench presses. Mine was the latter.

Refocus, then - are there any safe ways to approximate those results?

Does the old-school stuff bear up? (Thinking of: 1 hr LISS every day for recovery/cals burned, + heavy weights - i.e. 4-6 rep range)

Sure. This works too, just a lot less showy. Watch your diet of course. And ramping up the intensity of your cardio (within limits, of course) will have a stronger body recomposition effect than if you only do LISS. Mix it up.

myofibril

Does the old-school stuff bear up? (Thinking of: 1 hr LISS every day for recovery/cals burned, + heavy weights - i.e. 4-6 rep range)

Short answer is yes.

Crossfit / Paleo works because it combines reasonably intense metabolic conditioning workouts with nutrient dense diet but most importantly it inspires devotion. You know what devotion leads to? Adherence. You know what adherence leads to? Results. You know what results leads to? Even more adherence etc etc.

Personally if I wanted to lean out I would pick the traditional bulk / cut cycle for the simple reason is I feel it reaps greater rewards than the above approach because of the higher levels of adaptations triggered due to specificity. Metabolic conditioning workouts are a trade off between the full on aerobic / CV advantages of a properly implemented cardio routine and the anaerobic / muscular growth advantages of a properly implemented weights routine.

Determinednoob

They do resistance training and eat in a way that makes them lose\not gain fat. Safer\less restrictive ways to do both exist.

Re food, you mean high protein @ maintenance?

What do you mean by 'restrictive' - the cutting out of an entire food group? (Though to be fair, carb/calorie cycling's also done in bodybuilding, no?)

high protein sure but not at maintenance. Just meant the ones that need to lose fat eat low enough to lose it and the ones that don;t need to lose fat don't. Yes restrictave I mean all the stuff that they don't eat. You can eat whatever tf you want to and look like that as long as it fits your macros\cals (within reason. obviously a ratioed mix of whey, sugar, and lard all day every day wouldn't cut it.)

I guess some people do cycling, but for average people at least if not for almost everyone, it isn't needed.

FitnSassy

I consider myself "chubby fit" and I did the first CF introduction class at my local Box. (There are three other prerequisite lifting classes that teach proper form.) It was grueling, but I hung in there better than some of the younger men who were puking all over the place. Did I mention that it was grueling? All I know is that when it was over, I felt damn good. My energy level was through the roof. I was in love! I felt like there wasn't anything that I couldn't do. I had transformed into "super woman!" Mind you, it was just the intro class. Did I join? No. Why? I'm scared! LOL... #oneday

bagge72

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

chsmith79

They do resistance training and eat in a way that makes them lose\not gain fat. Safer\less restrictive ways to do both exist.

Re food, you mean high protein @ maintenance?

What do you mean by 'restrictive' - the cutting out of an entire food group? (Though to be fair, carb/calorie cycling's also done in bodybuilding, no?)

high protein sure but not at maintenance. Just meant the ones that need to lose fat eat low enough to lose it and the ones that don;t need to lose fat don't. Yes restrictave I mean all the stuff that they don't eat. You can eat whatever tf you want to and look like that as long as it fits your macros\cals (within reason. obviously a ratioed mix of whey, sugar, and lard all day every day wouldn't cut it.)

I guess some people do cycling, but for average people at least if not for almost everyone, it isn't needed.

Not all CFers do Paleo. Most do have a low-carb diet of some sort. But there are some that don't. I count calories and try to keep carb intake at around 100g.I think you should do what works for you as far as diet goes. I do recommend CF as a means of exercise. I have had a couple friends come over to workout and they call me asking "can we do that again".

iWaffle

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

Stop making so much sense!

chsmith79

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

meshashesha2012

you work hard ..

i'll be starting crossfit next week and it reminds me A LOT of the type of non position specific training we'd do when i played rugby.

i dont plan on eating paleo either. i like beer and rice too much :laugh:

bostonwolf

I have at least one female friend who dramatically changed her body with CF. She was not fat to begin with, but was soft (no muscle tone) She now has roughly the same figure but is solid as a rock and still very feminine.

I'm working up to CF. Just had knee surgery in February and really want to make sure I have my leg strength back before trying it.

And as some have mentioned, you shouldn't be jumping in going balls to the wall right away. As with any weightlifting routine you should be starting light and figuring out what you're capable of before really pushing it.

bagge72

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

Reading comprehension? Where did I say it doesn't do anything for you? I said that the people you see in that good of shape were already in good shape, and took it to the next level with CF, but I also said that CF was not the only way to get in that good of shape, because I see people all of the time at my gym who look just as good. Try to not look for something bad in everything people say about CF, it can't be healthy. Also don't think CF is the only way to get in shape, because it isn't, and somebody didn't lose 7.5lbs a week because of the sport it was because of a lot of things, and it is a very unhealthy way to do it, and hopefully somebody taught that person how to maintain, because you can't starve yourself, and do CF forever.

anemoneprose

Thanks to all who’ve shared their thoughts and experiences!

@DavPul: Must have been some crazy weight you were pressing! I can’t help but admire the graft involved, though am of course sorry that happened.

Really appreciate your advice. Injury-free recomp is indeed my goal

@msf74: Keen insights into the motivational factors at play! I also agree with your thoughts on specificity/adaptation.

I don’t think a straight cut/bulk is for me, though, if only because I can’t get my head around gaining (again) after working so hard to lose, even knowing killer glutes might be at the end of it. I suspect a trade-off will be necessary for me to stay sane

@ bagge72: I can see selection bias being important here - CF could easily appeal to people used to rigorous training.

@determinednoob: some sick part of me wants to see someone try that lard plan, don’t know why!

chsmith79

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

Reading comprehension? Where did I say it doesn't do anything for you? I said that the people you see in that good of shape were already in good shape, and took it to the next level with CF, but I also said that CF was not the only way to get in that good of shape, because I see people all of the time at my gym who look just as good. Try to not look for something bad in everything people say about CF, it can't be healthy. Also don't think CF is the only way to get in shape, because it isn't, and somebody didn't lose 7.5lbs a week because of the sport it was because of a lot of things, and it is a very unhealthy way to do it, and hopefully somebody taught that person how to maintain, because you can't starve yourself, and do CF forever.

Who said anything about starving yourself? I didn't say it was the only way to get in shape. It has worked for me so far and helped get me motivated in the first place. I love it, but people should do what they like and what works for them. I have nothing against any other workout routine. The YouTube diary I was referring to all he did was started CF and a Paleo Diet. I just don't understand why so many people attack CF or the people who participate because we are enthusiastic about it . Can it be dangerous? Yes if not done properly, but any fitness or exercise regiment when not done properly can be. I am just saying we can agree to disagree. it has worked for me and yes I am enthusiastic about it. I don't agree with everything Dave Castro (CF head of programming) says,but he said the main purpose of CF was to get people's butts off the couch and get them doing something.

Hendrix7

It's because cross fit is the absolute pinnacle of exercise. No other training method comes close to producing the results of crossfit due to the neural adaptions Over the wide variety of strength densities and modal planes.

It's a well known fact that cross fitters are faster than sprinters, more jacked than bodybuilders and could no doubt complete at any Olympic lifting or endurance test on the planet and dominate.

Apparently.

caribougal

I eat Paleo (well, Primal actually) and I'm working up to Cross Fit. I've lost 15 pounds on diet alone, with another 5-10 lbs to go, and at least 5-10% body fat to lose. I started at 33% BF, and I'm down to 30%, although not the same scale, so I'm not really sure. Huzzah for Paleo, which I feel like I've got down pat. I know there are lots of critics out there, people who think it's extreme. For me, I'm enjoying the delicious foods I can eat now without a shred of guilt. I don't miss the bread/rice/pasta/beans/processed crap one teensy bit. Someone above mentioned that it's a high protein/low carb diet. I don't feel like my protein intake is that much higher than my SAD diet, except for breakfast.. I definitely eat more protein now for breakfast than I did before Paleo. And, sometimes my lunches were pure carb in the past, and now I usually have 1-3 oz protein at lunch. Otherwise, the big difference is that in addition to the protein I eat at every meal, I pile on the veggies... as much as I can stand. Since I am trying to lose weight, I do watch my cals but I'm guessing that as I increase my strength workouts I'll need to increase my cals too. That will be interesting to figure out. I'm curious if I'll actually feel hungrier. Now that diet is not an issue, I'm on to fitness through CF.

Cross Fit anywhere is serious business, but in my town, it's hard core. In a town FULL of pro and semi-pro athletes and 3 CF boxes, I'm intimidated by the competition I think will be there. But, I've also heard it's an amazing community, and that's why people are dedicated to it. It's not just about the workout, but the support you get in the box and out. Could I get fit elsewhere? Yes, but I think that community part of it will end up being key to my adherence (as a poster above stated).

I've started with a personal trainer at a small private gym with the StrongLifts 5x5 program (modified a bit). I'm only on Day 2, and seriously sore. I'll probably be paying 2-3 times for this personal trainer as I would be at CF, but I'm hoping that with 3 months of 5x5 three times a week, I'll feel strong enough to go to Cross Fit and not feel like a loser.

I'm curious about this personal experiment... strength training out on a Paleo diet. I don't limit my carbs, but since I only eat veggies, fruit, meat, eggs, nuts I don't have a whole lot of sugar in my diet. My carbs naturally come in around 70-80g/day, I think. I don't aim for ketosis, and I have no idea if I'm in it or not (probably not), but I know when I work out I don't have a huge store of easy carbs to pull from. It will be interesting to see how my body changes.

What I've learned from 2 days (I know, big deal) of strength training on 5x5 is that I have no grip strength in my left hand. I think I could lift heavier but my left hand just can't hold onto the bar. So annoying. And dead lifting is damned hard, but overhead presses are even harder. And, I love it.

bagge72

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

Reading comprehension? Where did I say it doesn't do anything for you? I said that the people you see in that good of shape were already in good shape, and took it to the next level with CF, but I also said that CF was not the only way to get in that good of shape, because I see people all of the time at my gym who look just as good. Try to not look for something bad in everything people say about CF, it can't be healthy. Also don't think CF is the only way to get in shape, because it isn't, and somebody didn't lose 7.5lbs a week because of the sport it was because of a lot of things, and it is a very unhealthy way to do it, and hopefully somebody taught that person how to maintain, because you can't starve yourself, and do CF forever.

Who said anything about starving yourself? I didn't say it was the only way to get in shape. It has worked for me so far and helped get me motivated in the first place. I love it, but people should do what they like and what works for them. I have nothing against any other workout routine. The YouTube diary I was referring to all he did was started CF and a Paleo Diet. I just don't understand why so many people attack CF or the people who participate because we are enthusiastic about it . Can it be dangerous? Yes if not done properly, but any fitness or exercise regiment when not done properly can be. I am just saying we can agree to disagree. it has worked for me and yes I am enthusiastic about it. I don't agree with everything Dave Castro (CF head of programming) says,but he said the main purpose of CF was to get people's butts off the couch and get them doing something.

It's not that we are agreeing to disagree, because I haven't found anything that we disagree on yet, but for some reason you are making up in your head that I'm attacking CF when I never did that. I said CF works, but there are other ways to do it as well. I think the problem with CF people is that they automatically think people are sh!tting on them, it's like they are looking for it so they can argue about it.

Determinednoob

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

Reading comprehension? Where did I say it doesn't do anything for you? I said that the people you see in that good of shape were already in good shape, and took it to the next level with CF, but I also said that CF was not the only way to get in that good of shape, because I see people all of the time at my gym who look just as good. Try to not look for something bad in everything people say about CF, it can't be healthy. Also don't think CF is the only way to get in shape, because it isn't, and somebody didn't lose 7.5lbs a week because of the sport it was because of a lot of things, and it is a very unhealthy way to do it, and hopefully somebody taught that person how to maintain, because you can't starve yourself, and do CF forever.

Who said anything about starving yourself? I didn't say it was the only way to get in shape. It has worked for me so far and helped get me motivated in the first place. I love it, but people should do what they like and what works for them. I have nothing against any other workout routine. The YouTube diary I was referring to all he did was started CF and a Paleo Diet. I just don't understand why so many people attack CF or the people who participate because we are enthusiastic about it . Can it be dangerous? Yes if not done properly, but any fitness or exercise regiment when not done properly can be. I am just saying we can agree to disagree. it has worked for me and yes I am enthusiastic about it. I don't agree with everything Dave Castro (CF head of programming) says,but he said the main purpose of CF was to get people's butts off the couch and get them doing something.

Doing high rep oly lifts for time IS DOING IT WRONG. Just say'

chsmith79

I think that most of the women and men you see that are really in great shape doing CF were in great shape to begin with, and the sport helped them take it to the next level. I know plenty of people who do CF (because we all know they won't shut up about it) That don't look like all of those pictures we see on-line. I also know plenty of people at my gym that I see there everyday that are in just as good of shape as these people, and they don't do CF so it really is just somebody who works their butt off, and has good genetics! It can be done a ton of different ways, you just have to pick the right one.

YouTube"Killing the Fat Man" That is one my inspirations. The guy was 270+lbs and after 10 weeks was 200lbs and taking his level 1 cert. If it doesn't do anything for you why does the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fire Dept. use it? Yes people who do it work our butts off, but isn't that the point?

Reading comprehension? Where did I say it doesn't do anything for you? I said that the people you see in that good of shape were already in good shape, and took it to the next level with CF, but I also said that CF was not the only way to get in that good of shape, because I see people all of the time at my gym who look just as good. Try to not look for something bad in everything people say about CF, it can't be healthy. Also don't think CF is the only way to get in shape, because it isn't, and somebody didn't lose 7.5lbs a week because of the sport it was because of a lot of things, and it is a very unhealthy way to do it, and hopefully somebody taught that person how to maintain, because you can't starve yourself, and do CF forever.

Who said anything about starving yourself? I didn't say it was the only way to get in shape. It has worked for me so far and helped get me motivated in the first place. I love it, but people should do what they like and what works for them. I have nothing against any other workout routine. The YouTube diary I was referring to all he did was started CF and a Paleo Diet. I just don't understand why so many people attack CF or the people who participate because we are enthusiastic about it . Can it be dangerous? Yes if not done properly, but any fitness or exercise regiment when not done properly can be. I am just saying we can agree to disagree. it has worked for me and yes I am enthusiastic about it. I don't agree with everything Dave Castro (CF head of programming) says,but he said the main purpose of CF was to get people's butts off the couch and get them doing something.

It's not that we are agreeing to disagree, because I haven't found anything that we disagree on yet, but for some reason you are making up in your head that I'm attacking CF when I never did that. I said CF works, but there are other ways to do it as well. I think the problem with CF people is that they automatically think people are sh!tting on them, it's like they are looking for it so they can argue about it.

I apologize, it is just so common on these boards. See above post. I don't believe CF is the only way, that being said, it works for me and keeps me motivated. I do apologize, I do not like to argue. I just don't see the point in bashing someone else's workout routine if it works for them(whatever it may be). See above post. bagge72 I do apologize to you.