Protein for athletes and non-athletes...

EvgeniZyntx

A repost of something I am reading that nicely summarizes the thinking behind 1 g/lb LBM for body building and a bit less for others...

1) Excess protein in the diet leads to more muscle gain. Myth.

Protein is an essential component of the diet and is involved in almost every structural and functional component of the human body. It has been shown that during endurance exercise, amino acid oxidation accounts for only 1-6% of the energy requirement at 65% VO2max, with the amount varying with training status and carbohydrate availability (Burke & Deakin, 2010). High intensity endurance training may affect the need for an increase in dietary protein by increasing the oxidation of amino acids. Therefore, it is recommended that endurance athletes consume ~1.4 g/kg/body mass (BM) compared to a non-athlete (0.85-0.9 g/kg/BM).

Some athletes believe that protein intake is directly proportional to protein synthesis or muscle gain, resulting in an overconsumption of protein in the range of 3-4 g/kg/BM (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). The body will use the essential amino acids it needs from the diet for muscle and tissue growth and repair, and the excess will be oxidized with no additional increase in strength or muscle mass (Burke & Deakin, 2010). The recommended intake of 1.4 g/kg/BM appears to be the appropriate amount to maintain net protein synthesis in endurance athletes. Athletes need to be cautious of excessive protein in the diet as this may decrease dietary carbohydrate intake and may lead to premature fatigue during high intensity training and competition.

And for body building... http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

0.82 g/lb body mass translates closely to about 1 g/lb of LBM (if 18% body fat...)

Summary:

up to 1 - 1.4 g/lb of LBM or slightly higher for strength training
around 0.70-0.80 g/lb of LBM per day for an athlete
at least 0.54 g/lb of LBM for a non-athlete (asuming about 30% BF)


Ref

Burke, L., Deakin, V. 2010. Clinical Sports Nutrition, 4th Ed. McGraw Hill, Australia.

Phillips, S.M., Van Loon, L.J.C. 2011. Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Journal of Sports Sciences, 29(S1): S29-S38.

SideSteel

You should also go to youtube and type in

Protein Roundtable

And watch both vids with Aragon, Helms, and McCarthy.

They are LONG vids, but very, very good.

mmapags

Great info!

Sarauk2sf

Tagging as there has been a lot of debate about this recently.


It's interesting that this shows a lower protein requirement for endurance athletes where I have seen that they require more, but it is not something that I have paid too much attention to not being one myself.

Chief_Rocka

1.4-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight is beneficial for individuals engaged in intense exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966

This study comes in at 2-3g/kg:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434

Older subjects lost lean mass getting the RDA protein recommendations (.8g/kg):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798

In these two, double the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715

Triple the RDA in this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

These folks gained lean mass in a slight deficit with 1.5g/kg protein intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463

People that didn't even exercise benefited from higher protein intake in this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116

LexyDB

1.5g is suitable for those who resistance train.

Excess protein not leading to muscle gains is hardly new.

Matt_Wild

I eat excessive amounts of protein. I gain excessive amounts of muscle. We are not all created equal. Usually around 500-550g per day at 260lb.

Those studies were not on body builders. Please stop trying tell those in the know, they are wrong.

Oishii

A repost of something I am reading that nicely summarizes the thinking behind 1 g/lb LBM for body building and a bit less for others...

1) Excess protein in the diet leads to more muscle gain. Myth.

Protein is an essential component of the diet and is involved in almost every structural and functional component of the human body. It has been shown that during endurance exercise, amino acid oxidation accounts for only 1-6% of the energy requirement at 65% VO2max, with the amount varying with training status and carbohydrate availability (Burke & Deakin, 2010). High intensity endurance training may affect the need for an increase in dietary protein by increasing the oxidation of amino acids. Therefore, it is recommended that endurance athletes consume ~1.4 g/kg/body mass (BM) compared to a non-athlete (0.85-0.9 g/kg/BM).

Some athletes believe that protein intake is directly proportional to protein synthesis or muscle gain, resulting in an overconsumption of protein in the range of 3-4 g/kg/BM (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). The body will use the essential amino acids it needs from the diet for muscle and tissue growth and repair, and the excess will be oxidized with no additional increase in strength or muscle mass (Burke & Deakin, 2010). The recommended intake of 1.4 g/kg/BM appears to be the appropriate amount to maintain net protein synthesis in endurance athletes. Athletes need to be cautious of excessive protein in the diet as this may decrease dietary carbohydrate intake and may lead to premature fatigue during high intensity training and competition.

And for body building... http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

0.82 g/lb body mass translates closely to about 1 g/lb of LBM (if 18% body fat...)

Summary:

up to 1 - 1.4 g/lb of LBM or slightly higher for strength training
around 0.70-0.80 g/lb of LBM per day for an athlete
at least 0.54 g/lb of LBM for a non-athlete (asuming about 30% BF)


Ref

Burke, L., Deakin, V. 2010. Clinical Sports Nutrition, 4th Ed. McGraw Hill, Australia.

Phillips, S.M., Van Loon, L.J.C. 2011. Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Journal of Sports Sciences, 29(S1): S29-S38.

1g/lb is thrown around on mfp as if it is the minimum anyone should get which is not supported by anything I have read. The above article is closer to WHO guidelines. Off to read the link, which is the only part about body building.

Oishii

A repost of something I am reading that nicely summarizes the thinking behind 1 g/lb LBM for body building and a bit less for others...

1) Excess protein in the diet leads to more muscle gain. Myth.

Protein is an essential component of the diet and is involved in almost every structural and functional component of the human body. It has been shown that during endurance exercise, amino acid oxidation accounts for only 1-6% of the energy requirement at 65% VO2max, with the amount varying with training status and carbohydrate availability (Burke & Deakin, 2010). High intensity endurance training may affect the need for an increase in dietary protein by increasing the oxidation of amino acids. Therefore, it is recommended that endurance athletes consume ~1.4 g/kg/body mass (BM) compared to a non-athlete (0.85-0.9 g/kg/BM).

Some athletes believe that protein intake is directly proportional to protein synthesis or muscle gain, resulting in an overconsumption of protein in the range of 3-4 g/kg/BM (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). The body will use the essential amino acids it needs from the diet for muscle and tissue growth and repair, and the excess will be oxidized with no additional increase in strength or muscle mass (Burke & Deakin, 2010). The recommended intake of 1.4 g/kg/BM appears to be the appropriate amount to maintain net protein synthesis in endurance athletes. Athletes need to be cautious of excessive protein in the diet as this may decrease dietary carbohydrate intake and may lead to premature fatigue during high intensity training and competition.

And for body building... http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

0.82 g/lb body mass translates closely to about 1 g/lb of LBM (if 18% body fat...)

Summary:

up to 1 - 1.4 g/lb of LBM or slightly higher for strength training
around 0.70-0.80 g/lb of LBM per day for an athlete
at least 0.54 g/lb of LBM for a non-athlete (asuming about 30% BF)


Ref

Burke, L., Deakin, V. 2010. Clinical Sports Nutrition, 4th Ed. McGraw Hill, Australia.

Phillips, S.M., Van Loon, L.J.C. 2011. Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Journal of Sports Sciences, 29(S1): S29-S38.

1g/lb is thrown around on mfp as if it is the minimum anyone should get which is not supported by anything I have read. The above article is closer to WHO guidelines. Off to read the link, which is the only part about body building.

Read it and it says 0.82g/lb for body building. It has clearly been misquoted/accidentally quoted in the OP chosen article (Sorry! You know I love you, right?).

I give up now. You all love your protein and believe in it and any research suggesting otherwise just doesn't pass muster when belief is involved.

Matt_Wild

Being your muscle is protein (amino acids), how else do you think large amounts of it is built?

Oishii

Being your muscle is protein (amino acids), how else do you think large amounts of it is built?

No one said you didn't need protein, but the research quoted in the OP does not support the argument that you need 1g/lb of protein to build muscle. It even shows proof of muscle growth at very low protein intakes. It's fascinating. Try reading it...

Oishii

And for body building... http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

This is the link I am referring to.

I must go read the links to research that DOES support 1g/lb protein, because I do want a balanced view.

Oishii

Oops!

Sarauk2sf

1g/lb is thrown around on mfp as if it is the minimum anyone should get which is not supported by anything I have read. The above article is closer to WHO guidelines. Off to read the link, which is the only part about body building.

You need to bear in mind that most people on this site do, or will be doing some kind of exercise, and a lot of the time that will involve strength training so the recommendations are given with that assumption in mind. The recommendations given by the WHO are minimum safe requirements for sedentary folks not at a deficit (which increases protein requirements). They also indicate that a higher protein requirement will be needed for growth situations. They indicate that there is no evidence to suggest that amounts significantly in excess of this is harmful.

I am not aware that they specifically address this or give recommendations for people exercising (it's a long report they produced so I many have missed it) or at a deficit.


It's a bit of an assumption that people are using blind belief of higher protein being beneficial as you seem to indicate and are not willing to pay attention to actual studies - especially as Fire_Rock actually linked a bunch.

One more thing to consider - protein is generally more satiating and has a higher TEF that say for example carbs - so as long as it is not harmful in higher amounts, which it is not unless you have a pre-existing kidney issue, why not have higher amounts I suppose?

caseythirteen

Not getting involved in the discussion because I don't have any opinion, but just wanted to point out that per kg and per lb are both being used. But since 1kg = 2.2 pounds, it could be throwing some of the calculations and comparisons off.

Chief_Rocka

One more thing to consider - protein is generally more satiating and has a higher TEF that say for example carbs - so as long as it is not harmful in higher amounts, which it is not unless you have a pre-existing kidney issue, why not have higher amounts I suppose?

This. Unless you have a dietary restriction that makes it difficult to achieve a sufficient protein intake while remaining within your calorie target, there's really no good reason to be trying to minimize protein intake.

JasonDetwiler

Wait, you mean I won't get hyooooge sitting on the couch and pounding ISOPURE every two hours? damn

etoiles_argentees

another protein thread...
Have any of you looked in to the differences between men and women? Yeah, we can pull studies all day long contradicting each other. There's plenty of them that show that a high protein meal creates a greater cortisol response than a high carb meal in women, regardless of the differences in amino acids, higher protein diets correlated with anxiety in both animal and human studies. In this study researchers set out to show that a high carb diet would induce more stress than a high protein diet. Ended up being the opposite, a high protein meal created a greater cortisol response+ than a high carb meal in women. Plenty showing low protein diets increase GABA production too.
I'll stay with a moderate amount of protein.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21304815

Sarauk2sf

another protein thread...
Have any of you looked in to the differences between men and women? Yeah, we can pull studies all day long contradicting each other. There's plenty of them that show that a high protein meal creates a greater cortisol response than a high carb meal in women, regardless of the differences in amino acids, higher protein diets correlated with anxiety in both animal and human studies. In this study researchers set out to show that a high carb diet would induce more stress than a high protein diet. Ended up being the opposite, a high protein meal created a greater cortisol response+ than a high carb meal in women. Plenty showing low protein diets increase GABA production too.
I'll stay with a moderate amount of protein.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21304815

I know you have looked into protein intake and females quite a bit - the above indicates an adverse impact on cortisol at really high protein levels, but have you seen anything regarding women and LBM maintenance or growth specifically?

I would note that the protein is very very high on that study - at the 65% level of protein, that would put me at 1,300 cals from protein which = 325g. No-one I have seen recommends that level of protein for peeps on here. That is nearly 3 x the amount I have and I follow the 1g per lb of LBM approach.

Lift_hard_eat_big

How much protein do prisoners get? They be getting dieseled!

Matt_Wild

Another way to put this. I don't want to eat 500g of protein, 6000 cals a day. But if I don't, I do not grow - I know this from a decade of experience. Experience that has put me in magzines like Flex. What would the OP suggest I do since he has all the answers?

SideSteel

As far as the original post goes, I believe the majority of literature that supports these intake values are based on non pharmacologically assisted individuals. This context matters. Edit: specifically, I think it's quite reasonable to assume greater protein intakes being beneficial for that population of bb'ers. Also my iPhone spellchecker tried to change bb'ers into boners.

SuperSexyDork

As far as the original post goes, I believe the majority of literature that supports these intake values are based on non pharmacologically assisted individuals. This context matters. Edit: specifically, I think it's quite reasonable to assume greater protein intakes being beneficial for that population of bb'ers. Also my iPhone spellchecker tried to change bb'ers into boners.

I'm here for the butthurt lulz... and SideSteel's boner...

etoiles_argentees

Also my iPhone spellchecker tried to change bb'ers into boners.

Best phone ever!

etoiles_argentees

How much protein do prisoners get? They be getting dieseled!

yeah they are, you should see when we try to teach yoga, it always ends up being a contest to see who can do the most handstand pushups! They are diesel.

zaph0d

Why not error on the side of caution and just eat plenty of protein.

EvgeniZyntx

A repost of something I am reading that nicely summarizes the thinking behind 1 g/lb LBM for body building and a bit less for others...

1) Excess protein in the diet leads to more muscle gain. Myth.

Protein is an essential component of the diet and is involved in almost every structural and functional component of the human body. It has been shown that during endurance exercise, amino acid oxidation accounts for only 1-6% of the energy requirement at 65% VO2max, with the amount varying with training status and carbohydrate availability (Burke & Deakin, 2010). High intensity endurance training may affect the need for an increase in dietary protein by increasing the oxidation of amino acids. Therefore, it is recommended that endurance athletes consume ~1.4 g/kg/body mass (BM) compared to a non-athlete (0.85-0.9 g/kg/BM).

Some athletes believe that protein intake is directly proportional to protein synthesis or muscle gain, resulting in an overconsumption of protein in the range of 3-4 g/kg/BM (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). The body will use the essential amino acids it needs from the diet for muscle and tissue growth and repair, and the excess will be oxidized with no additional increase in strength or muscle mass (Burke & Deakin, 2010). The recommended intake of 1.4 g/kg/BM appears to be the appropriate amount to maintain net protein synthesis in endurance athletes. Athletes need to be cautious of excessive protein in the diet as this may decrease dietary carbohydrate intake and may lead to premature fatigue during high intensity training and competition.

And for body building... http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

0.82 g/lb body mass translates closely to about 1 g/lb of LBM (if 18% body fat...)

Summary:

up to 1 - 1.4 g/lb of LBM or slightly higher for strength training
around 0.70-0.80 g/lb of LBM per day for an athlete
at least 0.54 g/lb of LBM for a non-athlete (asuming about 30% BF)


Ref

Burke, L., Deakin, V. 2010. Clinical Sports Nutrition, 4th Ed. McGraw Hill, Australia.

Phillips, S.M., Van Loon, L.J.C. 2011. Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Journal of Sports Sciences, 29(S1): S29-S38.

1g/lb is thrown around on mfp as if it is the minimum anyone should get which is not supported by anything I have read. The above article is closer to WHO guidelines. Off to read the link, which is the only part about body building.

Read it and it says 0.82g/lb for body building. It has clearly been misquoted/accidentally quoted in the OP chosen article (Sorry! You know I love you, right?).

I give up now. You all love your protein and believe in it and any research suggesting otherwise just doesn't pass muster when belief is involved.

0.82 g/lb of body mass is 0.82/(1-BF%) for g / lb Lean Body Mass which is about 1 g/lb of LBM. I think part of the confusion is around the use of the numbers g/kg and g/lb and Body Mass versus Lean Body Mass.

Or did I miss quote something? (And I love you too.)

I am not in one camp or the other in terms of this. For me these are numbers.
I apologize for probably quoting too early, but it did get me a lot of info and references from others - will read up over the next weeks the source materials and provide my summary and comments.

Matt_Wild

I don't like these studies myself. They are NOT specific studies on bodybuilders. Strength athletes are not the same as bodybuilders.

The link provided for bodybuilders, again was lots of links for undisclosed trainers. It needs to be very specific here.

And for me, There are varying levels of bodybuilders. Newbie through to Elite level. One would be foolish to claim their needs and gains would all be the same.