How do you loose weight when you are putting on muscle?

Zamba74

Hi All,
So, my main type of work out right now is my Muay Thai Kickboxing class. I go twice a week and each class is 2 hours. We start with 30 minutes of conditioning (boot camp) then practice on each other for an hour+ and then end with a 20 minutes burnout (boot camp) again. I'm putting on a ton of muscle and getting defined but really want to drop about 15-20 lbs (lost 4 in the past few months) which is challenging with what I do. I have been a lot better with my eating the past two weeks and even cut out the sweets this week which is a hugh challenge for me. Any other suggestions how to make the scale move?

Cyclink

The short answer is that you can't do both at the same time. You will need to choose between building more muscle and losing a little fat for a little while.

Either you have a calorie surplus (usually high in protein), which gives your body the raw material it needs to build muscle or you have a calorie deficit which causes your body to seek out fat (and some muscle) to burn for fuel. You are asking to have both a deficit and a surplus at the same time.

You could alternate your schedule in one or two week cycles, gaining muscle for a week or two, then dropping your calorie intake and losing fat for a week or two.

With your level of activity, you need to be careful with the deficit. A little deficit is good (think 200 to 400 calories per day). A larger deficit (more than 600 calories per day) will cut into your performance. For sedentary people, those larger deficits can mean faster weight loss. For an athlete, it drains the fuel that you need and you could be more tired during your workouts.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you are eating quite a bit to fuel those workouts and gain muscle at the same time. You don't need to eat cleaner. You just need to eat a little less.

dad106

One, you are not gaining muscle.. if you were, the weight would be going up and not down due to the gain of muscle and fat. Two, what you are most likely seeing is water retention from the muscles repairing themselves.. not actual muscle gain.

You also only have 19 pounds to lose.. which is not much. So it's going to come off slower anyway... whether you are building muscle or not.

Just keep eating at a deficit and you'll be fine.

WinnerVictorious

The short answer is that you can't do both at the same time. You will need to choose between building more muscle and losing a little fat for a little while.

i see this said on here alot, but i don't believe it. what is the origin of this assertion? i'd like to see something to back it up.

have you ever seen what happens to a Marine recruit during basic training? they lose weight. they lose fat. and they gain muscle as a result of all the PT. clearly you can do both with alot of exercise.

LexyDB

The short answer is that you can't do both at the same time. You will need to choose between building more muscle and losing a little fat for a little while.

i see this said on here alot, but i don't believe it. what is the origin of this assertion? i'd like to see something to back it up.

have you ever seen what happens to a Marine recruit during basic training? they lose weight. they lose fat. and they gain muscle as a result of all the PT. clearly you can do both with alot of exercise.

If you don't believe it, I suggest you read more or don't believe everything you are told.

Take into account the first law of thermodynamics for a good starting point.

Secondly, human biology and how the body works. This would involve hormones secreted by the pancreas namely insulin and glucagon.

Insulin shuttles glucose round the body to the liver and muscles. It does a lot more than this but that is a primary role. A spike in blood sugar causes insulin to be released and transported accordingly.

Now, for every action there is an equal and opposite reason.

This is where glucagon comes in. With low blood sugar, glucagon is released to extract fuel from another source, fat cells in particular. This is then converted to glycogen to compensate for the lack of in the blood and the transport happens in the same way.

The pancreas cannot perform both functions at the same time; see the comment regarding the first law of thermodynamics.

You can either being in a fat burning or fat use (storage if excess is present state) at any one time. Given that carbohydrates are the prime macronutrient to raising blood sugar you'd have thought that most people would have figured out to stop shovelling food down their throat with wanton abandon and let glucagon remain active for a long as possible to utilise body fat. Guess again.

You can build muscle and burn fat in the same day, timing what and when you eat. However, it is biologically impossible for your body to do it at the same time.

LexyDB

One, you are not gaining muscle.. if you were, the weight would be going up and not down due to the gain of muscle and fat. Two, what you are most likely seeing is water retention from the muscles repairing themselves.. not actual muscle gain.

You also only have 19 pounds to lose.. which is not much. So it's going to come off slower anyway... whether you are building muscle or not.

Just keep eating at a deficit and you'll be fine.

Really?

How about losing one and gaining the other? That would negate weight loss or gain.

Water retention from muscles repairing themselves? Since when? Amino acids repair muscles, carbohydrates assist with the fuel in the form of glycogen. Water binds to carbohydrates but unless creatine is being used in excessive amounts, water won't sit in the muscles for the repair process.

Try cycling your carbohydrates for the day after you've trained. Eat only protein and fats for the day, eating your carbohydrates post workout and you'll get the drop in body fat you're after.

mbryant22

If you are not seeing the scale move, but know you are gaining muscle, then you are also losing fat at the same time. For my first 3 weeks of personal training, my trainer told me not to expect to see the scale move since I was building muscle. Fat is still coming off, but the two balance out enough that the weight doesn't change. Now, after a month, I'm dropping the weight. Are you taking measurements? I lost 10.5 inches in those first 3 weeks and was completely thrilled, even though the scale did not move.

MrsRoundbottom

the simple answer is, use a measuring tape, you will SEE fat loss, muscle gain means a tight lean body = smaller also
and if you like measure your fat loss using a caliper, £4 on ebay/amazon

You dont need a scale, if your fitness/diet plan is working, you will SEE results in your size & shape NOT in numbers on the scale.

Example::: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/LorinaLynn/view/no-weight-loss-no-progress-448694

T1mH

Are you tracking your food? You mention getting your diet under control but don't mention what your doing for that other than cutting out sweets.

Weight loss is 100% diet. You can exercise till you drop but if your eating it all back you won't get weight loss.

WinnerVictorious

The short answer is that you can't do both at the same time. You will need to choose between building more muscle and losing a little fat for a little while.

i see this said on here alot, but i don't believe it. what is the origin of this assertion? i'd like to see something to back it up.

have you ever seen what happens to a Marine recruit during basic training? they lose weight. they lose fat. and they gain muscle as a result of all the PT. clearly you can do both with alot of exercise.

If you don't believe it, I suggest you read more or don't believe everything you are told.

Take into account the first law of thermodynamics for a good starting point.

Secondly, human biology and how the body works. This would involve hormones secreted by the pancreas namely insulin and glucagon.

Insulin shuttles glucose round the body to the liver and muscles. It does a lot more than this but that is a primary role. A spike in blood sugar causes insulin to be released and transported accordingly.

Now, for every action there is an equal and opposite reason.

This is where glucagon comes in. With low blood sugar, glucagon is released to extract fuel from another source, fat cells in particular. This is then converted to glycogen to compensate for the lack of in the blood and the transport happens in the same way.

The pancreas cannot perform both functions at the same time; see the comment regarding the first law of thermodynamics.

You can either being in a fat burning or fat use (storage if excess is present state) at any one time. Given that carbohydrates are the prime macronutrient to raising blood sugar you'd have thought that most people would have figured out to stop shovelling food down their throat with wanton abandon and let glucagon remain active for a long as possible to utilise body fat. Guess again.

You can build muscle and burn fat in the same day, timing what and when you eat. However, it is biologically impossible for your body to do it at the same time.

so your argument is that on a minute by minute scale you cannot because the pancreas prioritizes its tasks. that's fine. i can accept that. of course, i don't know if its true with doing some research (since i'm not an endocrinologist), but at least it's a plausible explanation. but you and i both know that is NOT how this assertion is used on this site. it's used on a day by day scale. that's what i've pushed back against because it just doesn't match my experience..

also, what does the first law of thermodynamics have to do with it? your body is not a closed system.

Zamba74

Yup, tracking my food on here. It has me at 1360 cal a day. Im 5'7 and currently 170. I'd like to get back down to 150. Put on alot of weight the past few years due to health and stress.

Cyclink

wait... you're working out two hours a day and you're only eating 1360 cal/day?

limericky19

SAVE

drgndancer

Ok first question: Why do you want to lose the weight? I mean this quite seriously, to what purpose weight loss rather than body recomposition, which is sounds like you're having success at. The number on the scale is just that, a number. Your goal should be to look good and be healthy. If you achieve that goal at a lean, muscular 170, why worry what scale says? If you're seeing more muscle definition, than almost certainly you're losing fat already. You're winning, keep it up. At some point you'll likely see the scale go down regardless, but don't be a slave to that number

Second question: Are you sure you're eating enough, especially on your class days? 1300 calories sounds like it would barely cover your energy expenditure just for the class itself, let alone any othe activities for the day. If those numbers are accurate you're probably losing muscle rather than gaining it.

SideSteel

Try cycling your carbohydrates for the day after you've trained. Eat only protein and fats for the day, eating your carbohydrates post workout and you'll get the drop in body fat you're after.

So without a net change in macronutrients or calories you're claiming that carbohydrate timing alone will suddenly cause lipolysis?

Zamba74

I only do class day twice a week. On those two days I eat more, especially protein to get me through the two hours. I think I need to add some cardio into the days I'm not kickboxing to help me achieve my goal.

Tricep_A_Tops

I gained lean muscle during my 83 lb. Weight loss by eating at a slight deficit, losing my weight very slow ( my goal was 1 lb per week) eating 1 + gr. of protein for every lb. of body weight, lifting heavy 4 x per week and from newbie gaines.

Zamba74

Thanks for all the tips!

newmooon56

Ok- so what IS the answer? How do you strip away the "last 5 or 10" while building muscle and not burning out energy wise? How does one actually successfully achieve body recomposition?

matsprt1984

Wrong thread.

DavPul

Dear OP,

Keep doing exactly what you are doing as it sounds like it's working toward your actual goal. Ignore all the chatter about what can and can't be done in a deficit because it's irrelevant. Continue your workouts, maintain your calorie deficit, limit your sweets to one day per week. If you're having trouble staying under on calories then adding some cardio is a fine idea. Try hard not to overeat on your training days. That's pretty much the formula I used for myself this year and I've been pleased with the results so far.

Keep on keeping on,

Dave

rovernio

you know you wont be building muscle when you have weightloss in your head and do alot of cardio

rovernio

you know you wont be building muscle when you have weightloss in your head and do alot of cardio, the muscle you think you gain is you getting leaner en more defined i geuss

californiagirl2012

Dear OP,

Keep doing exactly what you are doing as it sounds like it's working toward your actual goal. Ignore all the chatter about what can and can't be done in a deficit because it's irrelevant. Continue your workouts, maintain your calorie deficit, limit your sweets to one day per week. If you're having trouble staying under on calories then adding some cardio is a fine idea. Try hard not to overeat on your training days. That's pretty much the formula I used for myself this year and I've been pleased with the results so far.

Keep on keeping on,

Dave

THIS^^

If you want to lose fat it's all about a calorie deficit pretty much. Your workout involves a lot of cardio already. I lost 60 lbs of fat while building muscle and getting stronger. Since I'm a girl I didn't get much bigger, but my DXA scan showed I didn't lose lean body mass while on a significant calorie deficit. Everyone is different. It sounds like what you are doing is working. That last bit of fat will come off slowly. When you get down low enough you can't eat at too deep of a deficit, here's why:

The Theory of Fat Availability:
•There is a set amount of fat that can be released from a fat cell.
•The more fat you have, the more fat can be used as a fuel when dieting.
•The less fat you have, the less fat can be used as a fuel when dieting.
•Towards the end of a transformation, when body fat is extremely low you
may not have enough fat to handle a large caloric deficit anymore.

At the extreme low end, when your body fat cannot ‘keep up’ with the energy deficit
you've imposed on your body, the energy MUST come from SOMEWHERE. This is
when you are at risk of losing lean body mass during dieting (commonly referred to
as ‘starvation mode’). This happens at extremely low levels of body fat, under 6% in
men and 12% in women [Friedl K.E. J Appl Phsiol, 1994].

-Brad Pilon and John Barban (from The Reverse Taper Diet in The Adonis Index and Venus Index manuals)

So this last bit requires a bit more patience and a nice slow deficit that takes a bit longer compared to those of us who have or once had significant fat stores.

jenifujita

Right on Bobbie!!!! Perfect answer!! Thanks for this.