Clean Eating vs. Calorie Counting
KatLifter
Posts: 1,314 Member
I've been eating a (mostly) clean diet and even though I eat 5+ times a day, I'm usually right at my 1500 calorie goal with great macros. I can eat a huge meal and it will be ~400-500 calories. I have more energy and this is a SUSTAINABLE way to loose weight and keep it off. Oh, and I've pretty much stopped binging because I never feel deprived. Amazing.
Thoughts on this response from a trainer?
"...First, I don’t count calories, although I did for years when I was younger. In fact I have binders of notes on my daily food intake including a daily breakdown for carbs, fats and protein. It was A LOT of work and I was truly obsessed. Nowadays I can merely look at food and guess quite accurately how many calories it contains, it’s become intuitive for me. But what Heather is talking about is quite different.
If you think about how our bodies are designed and have evolved, our ancestors were not counting calories. They simply ate when food was available and / or when they were hungry. And I can guarantee you that they weren’t fat either. I’m always looking to nature for both exercise and nutrition cues and I think in this case we can learn a lot. My feeling is that calorie counting is needed if you subscribe to a modern diet that contains white products such as flour, rice, breads and the like or if you eat any type of processed foods from a can or box. In this case I think calorie counting is imperative, as processed foods and white products are the reason we’re a nation of overweight people. The sugar is generally too high, there’s little to no fiber, lots of laboratory made tastes and colors and overall they are condensed – meaning for a little bit of food you’re getting a lot of calories.
Now if you think about a whole food diet like the Paleo plan (I’m a fan), there are no potatoes, no rice, very little starch and sugar and absolutely nothing processed. The truth is calories in don’t equal calories out. In other words we used to think that calories were the only factor to consider when trying to lose weight but we now know that’s not true. Each food has a metabolic and hormonal effect on the body – some good and some bad. So to say that 100 calories of chocolate chip cookies is the same as 100 calories of broccoli is just wrong. One provides almost no nutrition while the other has fiber, nutrients and will make your body work hard to digest it. So you can see that merely calorie counting isn’t a great idea in this case. What’s truly important is what you eat, not how much you eat.
When you eat a whole food diet it’s nearly impossible to overeat. Sure foods like avocado, nuts and seeds are high in calories, but really how much are you going to eat of these? I don’t imagine many people sitting down and eating platefuls of these foods. On a whole food diet like Heather mentions, you’ll feel fuller-longer and in most cases will be eating bulkier foods – foods that are generally less calorie dense (vegetables, fruit) so again the feeling of being full will set in faster. So in this instance calorie counting is not needed as you’ll simply eat when you’re hungry or every few hours. It’s really a very simple plan that works and it does away with adding numbers up at each meal. If you simply aim to eat a lean protein source, vegetables and healthy fat (nuts, seeds, oils, avocado etc.) with the occasional fruit added in you’ll be golden. With this type of plan your natural feelings of being satisfied will kick in and I’d be surprised if you over-ate. If you look at most people who eat this way, and I mean TRULY eat this way not some of the time, you’ll notice that they are all of normal weight and in many cases very lean. In short, it’s how our bodies were designed that makes this plan work so well.
So Lilly, if you can give up white, processed high calorie foods and switch to a mostly whole, natural food diet, I bet you’ll lose the weight you want. Your blood sugar and insulin will constantly be low (great for fat burning), you’ll have better and more sustained energy and more importantly, you’ll be healthier because you won’t be ingesting all of the junk that comes with processed foods.
Look at it this way – nobody ever got fat eating vegetables, lean meats, fruits and nuts. In fact I’ve gone on record saying that this type of plan is a cure for obesity and would do away with the myriad of health problems we see in this country."
http://www.angrytrainerfitness.com/2012/11/ask-alfonso-should-i-count-calories-2/
-Kat
Thoughts on this response from a trainer?
"...First, I don’t count calories, although I did for years when I was younger. In fact I have binders of notes on my daily food intake including a daily breakdown for carbs, fats and protein. It was A LOT of work and I was truly obsessed. Nowadays I can merely look at food and guess quite accurately how many calories it contains, it’s become intuitive for me. But what Heather is talking about is quite different.
If you think about how our bodies are designed and have evolved, our ancestors were not counting calories. They simply ate when food was available and / or when they were hungry. And I can guarantee you that they weren’t fat either. I’m always looking to nature for both exercise and nutrition cues and I think in this case we can learn a lot. My feeling is that calorie counting is needed if you subscribe to a modern diet that contains white products such as flour, rice, breads and the like or if you eat any type of processed foods from a can or box. In this case I think calorie counting is imperative, as processed foods and white products are the reason we’re a nation of overweight people. The sugar is generally too high, there’s little to no fiber, lots of laboratory made tastes and colors and overall they are condensed – meaning for a little bit of food you’re getting a lot of calories.
Now if you think about a whole food diet like the Paleo plan (I’m a fan), there are no potatoes, no rice, very little starch and sugar and absolutely nothing processed. The truth is calories in don’t equal calories out. In other words we used to think that calories were the only factor to consider when trying to lose weight but we now know that’s not true. Each food has a metabolic and hormonal effect on the body – some good and some bad. So to say that 100 calories of chocolate chip cookies is the same as 100 calories of broccoli is just wrong. One provides almost no nutrition while the other has fiber, nutrients and will make your body work hard to digest it. So you can see that merely calorie counting isn’t a great idea in this case. What’s truly important is what you eat, not how much you eat.
When you eat a whole food diet it’s nearly impossible to overeat. Sure foods like avocado, nuts and seeds are high in calories, but really how much are you going to eat of these? I don’t imagine many people sitting down and eating platefuls of these foods. On a whole food diet like Heather mentions, you’ll feel fuller-longer and in most cases will be eating bulkier foods – foods that are generally less calorie dense (vegetables, fruit) so again the feeling of being full will set in faster. So in this instance calorie counting is not needed as you’ll simply eat when you’re hungry or every few hours. It’s really a very simple plan that works and it does away with adding numbers up at each meal. If you simply aim to eat a lean protein source, vegetables and healthy fat (nuts, seeds, oils, avocado etc.) with the occasional fruit added in you’ll be golden. With this type of plan your natural feelings of being satisfied will kick in and I’d be surprised if you over-ate. If you look at most people who eat this way, and I mean TRULY eat this way not some of the time, you’ll notice that they are all of normal weight and in many cases very lean. In short, it’s how our bodies were designed that makes this plan work so well.
So Lilly, if you can give up white, processed high calorie foods and switch to a mostly whole, natural food diet, I bet you’ll lose the weight you want. Your blood sugar and insulin will constantly be low (great for fat burning), you’ll have better and more sustained energy and more importantly, you’ll be healthier because you won’t be ingesting all of the junk that comes with processed foods.
Look at it this way – nobody ever got fat eating vegetables, lean meats, fruits and nuts. In fact I’ve gone on record saying that this type of plan is a cure for obesity and would do away with the myriad of health problems we see in this country."
http://www.angrytrainerfitness.com/2012/11/ask-alfonso-should-i-count-calories-2/
-Kat
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Replies
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I'd find a new trainer0
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<snip> Look at it this way – nobody ever got fat eating vegetables, lean meats, fruits and nuts."
<snip>
TL;DR
But this snippet enables me to discount the rest without having to read it.0 -
It was a post on a website. I think he's right on the clean eating part. I'm not so into the idea of Paleo, but it is great he is encouraging people to eat whole foods over processed.0
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Yeah... basically he says "You are doing what I did, which taught me what I know now. So, you should skip the being taught part and simply know".
Additionally, when I hear people discuss our "ancestors" I stare at them blankly. Our ancestors lived in caves and huts, killed huge animals using STICKS, and lived to a ripe old age of in the late 30s and 40s. If THAT is what you are going for... then yeah, look to our ancestors.
Overall, new trainer maybe?0 -
Calorie counting works when done (somewhat) accurately because energy balance is energy balance.
Clean eating works when it happens to keep the user in a calorie deficit.
You can gain or lose weight eating clean; just depends on how much you eat and how much you burn.
No need to write dozens of paragraphs about it. It will only muddy the issue.0 -
Great job eating clean OP!! I wish you nothing but success in all your fitness and health goals :flowerforyou:0
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proselytizing nonsense from someone who evidently doesn't know how to cook0
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Look at it this way – nobody ever got fat eating vegetables, lean meats, fruits and nuts.
I didn't read all of your post, however I can tell you this part is absolutely not true from my experience. I have been on what you would call "paleo" type diet in the past, and I absolutely could and did put on fat from too much dried fruit and nuts. If you eat over what you burn in a day, you will gat fat. period.0 -
proselytizing nonsense from someone who evidently doesn't know how to cook
*swoon* I love it when you use big words....0 -
Great job eating clean OP!! I wish you nothing but success in all your fitness and health goals :flowerforyou:
(Did you recently receive a PM from our benevolent overseers too? Perhaps one that said that you seem like a great member?)0 -
If cavemen knew how to make chocolate chip cookies, they would have done so.
And I highly doubt that they ate "lean meat."
When did eating your fruits and veggies and avoiding too much junk become so complicated?0 -
Wait, why is this posted twice? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/807500-clean-eating-vs-calorie-counting0
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Wait, why is this posted twice? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/807500-clean-eating-vs-calorie-counting
Don't get the answers you want....keep posting!
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Wait, why is this posted twice? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/807500-clean-eating-vs-calorie-counting
Second verse, same as the first?0 -
Since it was cross-posted:Thoughts on this response from a trainer?
Yes, but my thoughts may not be popular. I'll share them anyways
"...First, I don’t count calories, although I did for years when I was younger. In fact I have binders of notes on my daily food intake including a daily breakdown for carbs, fats and protein. It was A LOT of work and I was truly obsessed.
This is a legitimate concern among some calorie counting people. It can really become obsessive and it's a very valid reason not to do it or to do it intermittently if you're the type that gets easily obsessed about it.Nowadays I can merely look at food and guess quite accurately how many calories it contains, it’s become intuitive for me.
This is possible. Not sure how accurate this person really is, but I wouldn't say that it can't be done.If you think about how our bodies are designed and have evolved, our ancestors were not counting calories. They simply ate when food was available and / or when they were hungry. And I can guarantee you that they weren’t fat either.
They also didn't have desk jobs, playstations, XBoxes, Internet, and quite bluntly they didn't have nearly as much *kitten*-sitting.My feeling is that calorie counting is needed if you subscribe to a modern diet that contains white products such as flour, rice, breads and the like or if you eat any type of processed foods from a can or box. In this case I think calorie counting is imperative, as processed foods and white products are the reason we’re a nation of overweight people. The sugar is generally too high, there’s little to no fiber, lots of laboratory made tastes and colors and overall they are condensed – meaning for a little bit of food you’re getting a lot of calories.
Energy density and nutrient density matter, but the demonizing of white foods here is just plain silly. White potatoes and white rice and GASP white bread are perfectly fine. So are sugars. What's not fine is eating in an energy surplus for prolonged periods of time.Now if you think about a whole food diet like the Paleo plan (I’m a fan), there are no potatoes, no rice, very little starch and sugar and absolutely nothing processed. The truth is calories in don’t equal calories out. In other words we used to think that calories were the only factor to consider when trying to lose weight but we now know that’s not true. Each food has a metabolic and hormonal effect on the body – some good and some bad. So to say that 100 calories of chocolate chip cookies is the same as 100 calories of broccoli is just wrong. One provides almost no nutrition while the other has fiber, nutrients and will make your body work hard to digest it. So you can see that merely calorie counting isn’t a great idea in this case. What’s truly important is what you eat, not how much you eat.
Withholding my opinion of Paleo so as to not start a flame war -- a calorie is a calorie. Period. It is a unit of energy. Now here is where it gets tricky: Each macronutrient is utilized differently. Proteins are used for amino acids, or sometimes converted to glucose via gluconeogensis. Carbohydrates are utilized for energy or on very rare occasion stored as fat via de novo lipogensis (more often an excess of carbs blunts fat oxidation and increases storage of fat directly but it's not the carbs being stored as fat per se). So 100 calories of chicken is not the same as 100 calories of vegetable oil, but the ENERGY IN is still the same. This is where the whole argument about calories ends up being one big twisted mish-mash of people confusing each other without clarification. The people saying "a calorie is a calorie" sometimes neglect the differences in substrate utilization and the people on the other side of the fence say "100 calories of cookies is not the same as 100 calories of beef and therefore thermodynamics is invalid and calories do not determine weight gain/loss".
Based on the above in quotes, I disagree with your trainer. I don't think he/she is placing proper emphasis on energy balance.
Nutrient density is important for health
Macronutrient intake is [/b]important for body composition[/b].
Calories are fundamentally important for weight loss (or gain).
Making statements that ignore any of that, in my opinion, is ignorant.When you eat a whole food diet it’s nearly impossible to overeat.
I disagree. I can easily eat in a calorie surplus of whole foods. EASILY.
I DO agree that calorie dense foods are easier to over-eat, and that it's easier to create a calorie surplus given a box of donuts and a tub of ice cream, vs a bag of broccoli and chicken breast.
*snip*If you look at most people who eat this way, and I mean TRULY eat this way not some of the time, you’ll notice that they are all of normal weight and in many cases very lean. In short, it’s how our bodies were designed that makes this plan work so well.
I don't buy the "design" argument. Now having said that, I DO agree that eating whole and nutrient dense foods is a good foundation to build a diet on. I do not think it needs to be an all or nothing endeavor, nor would I say that all people who eat whole foods are lean and fit.So Lilly, if you can give up white, processed high calorie foods and switch to a mostly whole, natural food diet, I bet you’ll lose the weight you want. Your blood sugar and insulin will constantly be low (great for fat burning), you’ll have better and more sustained energy and more importantly, you’ll be healthier because you won’t be ingesting all of the junk that comes with processed foods.
Protein is insulinogenic and this is where most people go wrong with the claim that eliminating carbs = chronic low insulin. http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
Additionally, I'll repeat that eating mostly whole and nutrient dense foods is a great idea. Eliminating "white carbs" is not necessary or beneficial.0 -
Calorie counting works when done (somewhat) accurately because energy balance is energy balance.
Clean eating works when it happens to keep the user in a calorie deficit.
You can gain or lose weight eating clean; just depends on how much you eat and how much you burn.
No need to write dozens of paragraphs about it. It will only muddy the issue.
exactly we over eat we get fat, we eat less and use calls we lose it. everything we eat should be counted but fruit and veg are good. simples eeep (meercat impression)0 -
If cavemen knew how to make chocolate chip cookies, they would have done so.
And I highly doubt that they ate "lean meat."
When did eating your fruits and veggies and avoiding too much junk become so complicated?
Not to discredit the OP (I commend you for eating better! Awesome job!), but I had to laugh when I read this because honestly this is about the first thing I think of when someone talks to me about the Paleo diet... my mind immediately goes to some cro magnon man trying some milk chocolate chip cookies ... irrelevant and silly, I know, but it's basically where my mind wanders. every. time.0 -
Great job eating clean OP!! I wish you nothing but success in all your fitness and health goals :flowerforyou:
(Did you recently receive a PM from our benevolent overseers too? Perhaps one that said that you seem like a great member?)
:laugh:0 -
Great job eating clean OP!! I wish you nothing but success in all your fitness and health goals :flowerforyou:
(Did you recently receive a PM from our benevolent overseers too? Perhaps one that said that you seem like a great member?)
Haha no. I've never had any creepers hitting on me here 0 -
Great job eating clean OP!! I wish you nothing but success in all your fitness and health goals :flowerforyou:
(Did you recently receive a PM from our benevolent overseers too? Perhaps one that said that you seem like a great member?)
Haha no. I've never had any creepers hitting on me here
how YOU doin?
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Wait, why is this posted twice? http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/807500-clean-eating-vs-calorie-counting
Second verse, same as the first?
Oops no. I accidentally posted it like that and coudn't delete. No need to get nasty.0 -
I've been eating a (mostly) clean diet and even though I eat 5+ times a day, I'm usually right at my 1500 calorie goal with great macros. I can eat a huge meal and it will be ~400-500 calories. I have more energy and this is a SUSTAINABLE way to loose weight and keep it off. Oh, and I've pretty much stopped binging because I never feel deprived. Amazing.
The only reason 'clean eating' works for you is because it enables you to meet your nutrient needs within your calorie budget and, presumably, sustain that pattern long-term.
The second that changes, the benefits of clean eating start to break down (obviously). It's no better (assuming identical maintainability with a moderation diet) and no worse (assuming you are ok with excluding certain foods that are, in my opinion, damn tasty).0 -
Ok, so here's an experiment you can try at home to test these 'paleo-eat like a caveman'. Take your household pet or regular animal visitor like a fox. Put out a plate of wholesome vegetables and fresh meat and put out a plate of deep fried, sugary heart attack inducing food.
You know what will happen. it'll eat the 'bad for you' stuff first and then the meats and lastly the vegetables. Basically, it will eat anything and everything. This is because our basic brain does not tell us to stop eating when we are full because it constantly expects there to be a period of famine where we do not eat.
And to disprove the 'fasting' parts of these diets there are huge bodies of evidence that you'll lose more muscle than fat.0 -
bump0
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I can eat a "plateful of nuts" if I let myself - just sayin...0
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I'd find a new trainer
Word!0
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