are endurance cardio & muscle retention mutually exclusive?

PetulantOne

I don't have anything to add. I just wanted to say thanks for all the good info.

jacksonpt

Hmmmmm, that's only 2100 calories. How big of a deficit is that running you?

About 200-300. Maintenance for me is in the neighborhood of 2300 + exercise cals

I agree with Rock (as usual). Temper your goals with the fact that you're shooting for two different things at once and won't see the progress in each that someone specializing might. That and eat for what you're doing.

Yea... I'm not good at tempering. But I think that is the crux of my difficulty with all this. It's not what I know or what I'm doing... it's what I'm expecting/hoping for.

More interesting in my eyes is how best to line up your cut and bulk cycle with the racing season. Off the cuff I would think you'd want to be bulking in season (though knowing how much time went into my buddy's cardio sessions when he was training for an Iron Man I recognize that you simply may not have the time to train that much or ability to eat that much food per day) for energy reasons and because then you aren't running races on an energy deficit. Additionally it would mean that on cuts you'd be able to focus on body comp a bit more and just try to maintain strength and endurance ability. I think that's going to play a big role in things as well.

I generally try to maintain during race season. I don't want to gain because added weight is almost necessarily a detriment, especially on the bike course. I don't want to cut because it's too easy to cut myself short on cals, which hurts energy levels and recovery. So I shoot to maintain, but generally end up losing a couple of lbs over the course of the season.

Off season is when I focus more on body comp goals, and when I do my bulking/cutting. This is still a work in progress, but generally speaking I'm working through 6 week bulk/cut cycles.

ArroganceInStep

Hmmmmm, that's only 2100 calories. How big of a deficit is that running you?

About 200-300. Maintenance for me is in the neighborhood of 2300 + exercise cals

So you're eating the 2100 baseline and then eating back exercise cals? Assuming that you should not have much trouble getting in adequate nutrients for strength and cardio.

I agree with Rock (as usual). Temper your goals with the fact that you're shooting for two different things at once and won't see the progress in each that someone specializing might. That and eat for what you're doing.

Yea... I'm not good at tempering. But I think that is the crux of my difficulty with all this. It's not what I know or what I'm doing... it's what I'm expecting/hoping for.

It's a challenge for most folks. I'm certainly not where I should be in that regard, either.

More interesting in my eyes is how best to line up your cut and bulk cycle with the racing season. Off the cuff I would think you'd want to be bulking in season (though knowing how much time went into my buddy's cardio sessions when he was training for an Iron Man I recognize that you simply may not have the time to train that much or ability to eat that much food per day) for energy reasons and because then you aren't running races on an energy deficit. Additionally it would mean that on cuts you'd be able to focus on body comp a bit more and just try to maintain strength and endurance ability. I think that's going to play a big role in things as well.

I generally try to maintain during race season. I don't want to gain because added weight is almost necessarily a detriment, especially on the bike course. I don't want to cut because it's too easy to cut myself short on cals, which hurts energy levels and recovery. So I shoot to maintain, but generally end up losing a couple of lbs over the course of the season.

Off season is when I focus more on body comp goals, and when I do my bulking/cutting. This is still a work in progress, but generally speaking I'm working through 6 week bulk/cut cycles.

That makes sense. I guess I didn't think 5 pounds or whatever would be that much of a detriment, but it's clear my lack of expertise in the area is shining through now.

j_a_witz

Bump for later.

rybo

Interesting read. I don't have much expertise or insight to add other than could it be possible to do some of your longer runs and endurance training at a slightly less intense pace, or without taking gels etc, to try and adapt your body to burning fat for fuel so you can keep your lower carb diet & not lose much in the way of performance? During my marathon training I "learned" to run my long runs on empty stomachs and no gels without any percieved negative effects.

1holegrouper

This is an interesting thread. My opinion is that your question is helped with some good baselines that you are very lucky if you have them all; favorable genetics, support, stress levels, environment, schedule. Then you have to properly train, fuel and rest your body for the demands you are making from it. The right balance for this looks theoretical to most of us but I think in reality should be called nearly impossible. But, we see some examples out there where it seems to be working and we call them "freaks of nature", lol.

jacksonpt

Interesting read. I don't have much expertise or insight to add other than could it be possible to do some of your longer runs and endurance training at a slightly less intense pace, or without taking gels etc, to try and adapt your body to burning fat for fuel so you can keep your lower carb diet & not lose much in the way of performance? During my marathon training I "learned" to run my long runs on empty stomachs and no gels without any percieved negative effects.

Maybe. I've gotten pretty good at running without water in all but the worst heat/humidity, but going without cals has never ended well. It's worth looking into though...

heybales

Recommend that slower pace to to get the best aerobic response from your existing muscles as you can.

And then if needed, do the intervals for building up the muscles you actually need, that's not endurance cardio at all.

For encouragement to realize that sometimes the challenge to go slower can lead to better benefits and faster speed in the end. In case your training philosophy is to go hard eat time, you commented about wanting to see performance.

http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

pixiestick

I'm going to side with "depends".

It depends on if your looking to compete or just complete.
If you're just looking to complete an IM, the cut off is 17 hours (2:20, 10:30, 4:10). Extra muscle mass isn't going to be a limiting factor as long as you fuel.

If you're looking to compete for an AG podium, that's a LOT faster. The top 3 M35-39 at IM FL finished between 9:08 and 9:19. The top AG'er finished in 8:58. They all split about 1:00/4:30/3:15.

On the other hand, have you seen what Craig Alexander looks like?


And he's a 3x ironman world champion, 5'11, 150lbs.

I second this. It depends.