Good Fat vs. Bad Fat
Replies
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Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.0 -
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:0 -
Yup, yup.
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.0 -
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.0 -
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
Saying something is bad because we too much of it is silly because that could be said of anything. So, let's ignore that.
Are you saying palm and coconut oils are not vegetable oils?
Also, why do you suppose nutrition researchers, who spend their lives conducting research on this stuff and looking at all the evidence, say vegetable oils are healthy?0 -
Coconut and palm was for the saturated fats are bad crowd and they are classified as "natural" which was the first part of the post that I was in agreement with.
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
Saying something is bad because we too much of it is silly because that could be said of anything. So, let's ignore that.
Are you saying palm and coconut oils are not vegetable oils?
Also, why do you suppose nutrition researchers, who spend their lives conducting research on this stuff and looking at all the evidence, say vegetable oils are healthy?
As far as research is concern I covered that.......if you believe refined vegetable oil are ok to consume, by all means consume them. For me, not when I can help it, nor would I ever recommend them. Obviously my post didn't make any sense to you.0 -
Coconut and palm was for the saturated fats are bad crowd and they are classified as "natural" which was the first part of the post that I was in agreement with.
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
Saying something is bad because we too much of it is silly because that could be said of anything. So, let's ignore that.
Are you saying palm and coconut oils are not vegetable oils?
Also, why do you suppose nutrition researchers, who spend their lives conducting research on this stuff and looking at all the evidence, say vegetable oils are healthy?
As far as research is concern I covered that.......if you believe refined vegetable oil are ok to consume, by all means consume them. For me, not when I can help it, nor would I ever recommend them. Obviously my post didn't make any sense to you.
Sorry, I still don't see anything about recommendations from researchers, and no not much sense to me. But that's okay.0 -
It's ok that you don't understand, fats are confusing for sure, but I at least thought my comment that trans fats are produced in the refining process of vegetable oils like soy and corn oil might have nudged you off your chair, but alas, no such luck.
Coconut and palm was for the saturated fats are bad crowd and they are classified as "natural" which was the first part of the post that I was in agreement with.
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
Saying something is bad because we too much of it is silly because that could be said of anything. So, let's ignore that.
Are you saying palm and coconut oils are not vegetable oils?
Also, why do you suppose nutrition researchers, who spend their lives conducting research on this stuff and looking at all the evidence, say vegetable oils are healthy?
As far as research is concern I covered that.......if you believe refined vegetable oil are ok to consume, by all means consume them. For me, not when I can help it, nor would I ever recommend them. Obviously my post didn't make any sense to you.
Sorry, I still don't see anything about recommendations from researchers, and no not much sense to me. But that's okay.0 -
It's ok that you don't understand, fats are confusing for sure, but I at least thought my comment that trans fats are produced in the refining process of vegetable oils like soy and corn oil might have nudged you off your chair, but alas, no such luck.
Coconut and palm was for the saturated fats are bad crowd and they are classified as "natural" which was the first part of the post that I was in agreement with.
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Most aren't very good for human consumption, especially the popular ones like corn and soy which is in just about every processed food where fat is found. Both of these fats are loaded with omega 6's which are extremely fragile oils in nature and really should never be exposed to light, oxygen or heat. And guess what, trans fats are generated in small quantites from the refining process, with Canola to be the worst at around 4%. Omega 3's the same principals apply, but for cost reasons omega 3's are never used, probably because fish doesn't grow in fields in Nebraska and are subsidized. Anyway, When you refine an oil, your actually boiling the oil and it turns a nasty shade of dark grey and stinks, so what they do is they first bleach these refined veg oils then they deodorize them. They add color as well to make it more appealing. Secondly, omega balance is extremely important for overall health and if the vast majority of people aren't consuming much fish and eat lots of junk food, then their getting most of their fats from polyunsaturated omega 6 fats. Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
Saying something is bad because we too much of it is silly because that could be said of anything. So, let's ignore that.
Are you saying palm and coconut oils are not vegetable oils?
Also, why do you suppose nutrition researchers, who spend their lives conducting research on this stuff and looking at all the evidence, say vegetable oils are healthy?
As far as research is concern I covered that.......if you believe refined vegetable oil are ok to consume, by all means consume them. For me, not when I can help it, nor would I ever recommend them. Obviously my post didn't make any sense to you.
Sorry, I still don't see anything about recommendations from researchers, and no not much sense to me. But that's okay.
Nudged me off my chair?? Again, makes no sense.0 -
Nudged me off my chair?? Again, makes no sense.
I believe you.
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Odd, all the canola oil which I buy says 0% trans fats. Are they lying?0
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Yes and no. No their not lying and are within the legal disclaimer to say 0 transfats because anything less than .5g's per serving can be classified as 0. In the UK for example it's .2g's. If there where actually no transfats in canola then they would be within their legal right to say "no trans fats" Basically when someone is saying their product has 0 trans fats you can bet their are trans fats unless it's a product that has no fat and are taking advantage of the marketing strategy to lower trans fats.....I'm not even sure if that's legal, but I have seen it in the past.Odd, all the canola oil which I buy says 0% trans fats. Are they lying?0 -
What about slow fats vs fast fats?0
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So next to nothing to start. How much is produced when you fry with it, or any oil?
Yes and no. No their not lying and are within the legal disclaimer to say 0 transfats because anything less than .5g's per serving can be classified as 0. In the UK for example it's .2g's. If there where actually no transfats in canola then they would be within their legal right to say "no trans fats" Basically when someone is saying their product has 0 trans fats you can bet their are trans fats.Odd, all the canola oil which I buy says 0% trans fats. Are they lying?
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/news/2010/07/trans-fat-formation-in-frying-oils.aspxTo determine TFA formation in various edible oils during cooking, six kinds of commercially available edible vegetable oils were heated to 180 °C in glass test tubes. Small changes in TFA amounts were observed after four hours heating. According to the researchers, the results suggest that a regular frying process using unhydrogenated edible oils should have little impact on TFA consumption from edible oils.0 -
That's a bit of a myth, frying doesn't produce trans fats but very high heat for a long enough time can create polymerization, but that's just an extreme example, probably never happen in someones kitchen. Again, small amounts may not seem like a lot, but adds up over a lifetime.
So next to nothing to start. How much is produced when you fry with it, or any oil?
Yes and no. No their not lying and are within the legal disclaimer to say 0 transfats because anything less than .5g's per serving can be classified as 0. In the UK for example it's .2g's. If there where actually no transfats in canola then they would be within their legal right to say "no trans fats" Basically when someone is saying their product has 0 trans fats you can bet their are trans fats.Odd, all the canola oil which I buy says 0% trans fats. Are they lying?0 -
Warning: don't start studying food politics or you'll really be in for a shocker. There are many things at play that determine what we are told to eat and it's not about our "health".
Sad, but true. There is *WAY* too much political play when it comes to health information and policies.0 -
There are places outside of America that don't have quite the same issues with lobbying or healthcare being a business venture, and plenty of quality research studies that have no links to any commercial organisations.
This is true as well.0 -
But if you want a good simple general rule for fats - "avoid trans fats and eat more unsaturated than saturated fats" is a pretty good one.
I think this is a good general rule of thumb.0 -
Yup.good fat: natural fats, animal fats
bad fats: vegetable oils, trans fats.
Vegetable oil are bad? :huh:
Personally, I don't use vegetable oil unless I am trying to really scrimp with groceries. I typically use peanut oil for high temp. cooking.0 -
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/news/2010/07/trans-fat-formation-in-frying-oils.aspxTo determine TFA formation in various edible oils during cooking, six kinds of commercially available edible vegetable oils were heated to 180 °C in glass test tubes. Small changes in TFA amounts were observed after four hours heating. According to the researchers, the results suggest that a regular frying process using unhydrogenated edible oils should have little impact on TFA consumption from edible oils.
Yeah, thanks for that study.......not much happening with the oil when heated.0 -
It's ok that you don't understand, fats are confusing for sure, but I at least thought my comment that trans fats are produced in the refining process of vegetable oils like soy and corn oil might have nudged you off your chair, but alas, no such luck.
I had no idea non-hydrogenated vegetable oils had trans fats in them. I stopped eating them as much as possible just because I've bought into the whole eat real foods thing... but yeah, didn't know.One little-known source of trans fat is canola / rapeseed oil. The trans fat occurs as a result of processing, which takes place at high temperature. The raw seed begins with a high level of beneficial omega-3 oils, however these tend to oxidise during processing producing off, rancid odours. During deodorisation, some of the omega-3 fatty acids are converted to trans.
The proportion converted to trans is highly variable - in general, UK oils have low levels of trans, however Researchers at the University of Florida at Gainesville, found that liquid canola / rapeseed oils sold in the USA contained as much as 4.6 percent trans fat. Currently this trans fat content is not usually listed on labels and consumers have no way of knowing it is present.
http://www.tfx.org.uk/page13.htmlCanola oil (provided that it has not been hydrogenated to increase its stability) contains very small amounts of trans fatty acids at levels too low to be a health concern. The levels of trans fat in non-hydrogenated canola oil are below 0.5 grams per serving and qualify for a label claim of "trans fat free." I don't see any reason to shy away from non-hydrogenated canola oil on account of trans fat.
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=39Trans Fat: Hiding in ‘Heart-Healthy’ Seed Oils
Of course, we should be eating those ‘heart-healthy’ polyunsaturated seed oils instead, right? Like ‘canola’ (rapeseed) oil?
Well, aside from the fact that seed oils contain mostly pro-inflammatory n-6 (“omega-6″) polyunsaturated fats, both n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fats are less chemically stable than saturated fats. It turns out that the process of extracting and deodorizing them (which requires both hexane, a poisonous industrial solvent, and high heat) turns some quantity of them into…trans fats!
SEAN. O’KEEFE, SARA. GASKINS-WRIGHT, VIRGINIA. WILEY, I-CHEN. CHEN. LEVELS OF TRANS GEOMETRICAL ISOMERS OF ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS IN SOME UNHYDROGENATED U. S. VEGETABLE OILS. J Food Lipids Vol 1 #3 pp.165-176 Sept. 1994
Concentrations of trans isomers of 18:2w6 and 18:3w3 were measured in soybean and canola oils purchased in the U. S. [...] The degree of isomerizations of 18:2w6 and 18:3w3 ranged from 0.3% to 3.3% and 6.6% to 37.1%, respectively. The trans contents were between 0.56% and 4.2% of the total fatty acids.
Yes, that’s the ‘heart-healthy’ canola oil that they put in everything nowadays because it has ALA in it (the least useful omega-3). Yet the average canola oil contains over 2% trans fat! (Remember: 2% of calories = doubling of heart disease risk.) And if extraction under carefully-controlled conditions creates that much trans fat, how much more does the uncontrolled heat of cooking and frying create?
(We don’t know—but we do know that n-3 fats are less chemically stable than n-6 fats, and generally get hydrogenated first. So all those “Omega-3 Enriched!” oils become “Trans-Fat Enriched!” when you cook with them. For evidence of this, we move to the next section…)
http://www.gnolls.org/1240/eat-more-heart-healthy-trans-fats-we-hid-them-in-plain-sight/0 -
Yeah, it's one of those little know fact that you won't find in the 1st page of google scholar, you have to dig for stuff like that....good job.It's ok that you don't understand, fats are confusing for sure, but I at least thought my comment that trans fats are produced in the refining process of vegetable oils like soy and corn oil might have nudged you off your chair, but alas, no such luck.
I had no idea non-hydrogenated vegetable oils had trans fats in them. I stopped eating them as much as possible just because I've bought into the whole eat real foods thing... but yeah, didn't know.One little-known source of trans fat is canola / rapeseed oil. The trans fat occurs as a result of processing, which takes place at high temperature. The raw seed begins with a high level of beneficial omega-3 oils, however these tend to oxidise during processing producing off, rancid odours. During deodorisation, some of the omega-3 fatty acids are converted to trans.
The proportion converted to trans is highly variable - in general, UK oils have low levels of trans, however Researchers at the University of Florida at Gainesville, found that liquid canola / rapeseed oils sold in the USA contained as much as 4.6 percent trans fat. Currently this trans fat content is not usually listed on labels and consumers have no way of knowing it is present.
http://www.tfx.org.uk/page13.htmlCanola oil (provided that it has not been hydrogenated to increase its stability) contains very small amounts of trans fatty acids at levels too low to be a health concern. The levels of trans fat in non-hydrogenated canola oil are below 0.5 grams per serving and qualify for a label claim of "trans fat free." I don't see any reason to shy away from non-hydrogenated canola oil on account of trans fat.
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=39Trans Fat: Hiding in ‘Heart-Healthy’ Seed Oils
Of course, we should be eating those ‘heart-healthy’ polyunsaturated seed oils instead, right? Like ‘canola’ (rapeseed) oil?
Well, aside from the fact that seed oils contain mostly pro-inflammatory n-6 (“omega-6″) polyunsaturated fats, both n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fats are less chemically stable than saturated fats. It turns out that the process of extracting and deodorizing them (which requires both hexane, a poisonous industrial solvent, and high heat) turns some quantity of them into…trans fats!
SEAN. O’KEEFE, SARA. GASKINS-WRIGHT, VIRGINIA. WILEY, I-CHEN. CHEN. LEVELS OF TRANS GEOMETRICAL ISOMERS OF ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS IN SOME UNHYDROGENATED U. S. VEGETABLE OILS. J Food Lipids Vol 1 #3 pp.165-176 Sept. 1994
Concentrations of trans isomers of 18:2w6 and 18:3w3 were measured in soybean and canola oils purchased in the U. S. [...] The degree of isomerizations of 18:2w6 and 18:3w3 ranged from 0.3% to 3.3% and 6.6% to 37.1%, respectively. The trans contents were between 0.56% and 4.2% of the total fatty acids.
Yes, that’s the ‘heart-healthy’ canola oil that they put in everything nowadays because it has ALA in it (the least useful omega-3). Yet the average canola oil contains over 2% trans fat! (Remember: 2% of calories = doubling of heart disease risk.) And if extraction under carefully-controlled conditions creates that much trans fat, how much more does the uncontrolled heat of cooking and frying create?
(We don’t know—but we do know that n-3 fats are less chemically stable than n-6 fats, and generally get hydrogenated first. So all those “Omega-3 Enriched!” oils become “Trans-Fat Enriched!” when you cook with them. For evidence of this, we move to the next section…)
http://www.gnolls.org/1240/eat-more-heart-healthy-trans-fats-we-hid-them-in-plain-sight/
It's funny that the marketing strategy lately is to increase omega 3's, instead of instructing people to reduce omega 6's. Well, it's actually easy to see why they don't, they would need to direct people away from grains and grain products and grain and seed oils.......never going to happen considering the alternative caloric substitutions don't align with existing FDA guidlines. What's ironic though is that the omega 3's that are being introduced to all types of processed foods are ALA's which are cheap to get, but aren't as effective as fish oil's EPA and DHA content, actually ALA is pretty much non functional for most people, but it's cheap like I said and they have a marketing campaign that I guess falls within legal parameters.0 -
Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
I don't think you can bet that at all, I am eating over 30% of calories as fat, that is from cheese, whole eggs, oily fish, avocados, creamed coconut, a little nuts, seeds and cocoa. If I fry I use a tiny bit of coconut oil or red palm oil, in the past I have used extra virgin olive oil as plenty of Europeans do. I know of a fair few eating in a similar way to me, many are using far less cheese and egg yolks but more ground flaxseeds and more natural peanut butter. There is nothing new fangled about eating wholefoods, it's been going on for decades.
Having said that I don't really see how coconut oil, palm, ghee or bacon fat are that much more 'natural' than rapeseed oil or olive pomace, they are all extracted and somewhat refined it's just degrees. I am not aware of any evidence all these foods were specifically provided by Mother Nature for the benefit of our species, I was rather under the impression milk was originally intended to nourish a calf, an egg for a chicken embryo, a nut for a plant seedling and so on.0 -
neanderthin, what are your thoughts here? Just some previous posts I made that interested me.I understand, I just like to get simple blood tests done to determine what if anything I might need before supplementing with something I don't.
I'd love to discuss the following, if someone would care to poke some holes in it? I'm serious, trying to learn here.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtmlSilverkittycat
Joined Jun 2011
Posts: 1,996
Sat 08/04/12 08:56 PM
and I know Masterjohn's past, but he has made some very good points in his reports lately, just an intro -
The PUFA Report Part 1: A Critical Review of the Requirement for Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids
Current reviews and textbooks call the omega-6 linoleic acid and the omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid "essential fatty acids" (EFA) and cite the EFA requirement as one to four percent of calories. Research suggests, however, that the omega-6 arachidonic acid (AA) and the omega-3 docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) are the only fatty acids that are truly essential. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) occurs in fish products but is probably not a normal constituent of the mammalian body and in excess it interferes with essential AA metabolism. The EFA requirement cited in the scientific literature is inflated by several factors: the use of diets composed mostly of sucrose, glucose, or corn syrup; the use of diets deficient in vitamin B6; the use of purified fatty acids instead of whole foods; the use of questionable biochemical markers rather than verifiable symptoms as an index for EFA deficiency; and the generalization from studies using young, growing animals to adults. The true requirement for EFA during growth and development is less than 0.5 percent of calories when supplied by most animal fats and less than 0.12 percent of calories when supplied by liver. On diets low in heated vegetable oils and sugar and rich in essential minerals, biotin, and vitamin B6, the requirement is likely to be much lower than this. Adults recovering from injury, suffering from degenerative diseases involving oxidative stress, or seeking to build muscle mass mass may have a similar requirement. For women who are seeking to conceive, pregnant, or lactating, the EFA requirement may be as high as one percent of calories. In other healthy adults, however, the requirement is infinitesimal if it exists at all. The best sources of EFAs are liver, butter, and egg yolks, especially from animals raised on pasture. During pregnancy, lactation, and childhood, small amounts of cod liver oil may be useful to provide extra DHA, but otherwise this supplement should be used only when needed to obtain fat-soluble vitamins. Vegetarians or others who eat a diet low in animal fat should consider symptoms such as scaly skin, hair loss or infertility to be signs of EFA deficiency and add B6 or animal fats to their diets. An excess of linoleate from vegetable oil will interfere with the production of DHA while an excess of EPA from fish oil will interfere with the production and utilization of AA. EFA are polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) that contribute to oxidative stress. Vitamin E and other antioxidant nutrients cannot fully protect against oxidative stress induced by dietary PUFA. Therefore, the consumption of EFA should be kept as close to the minimum requirement as is practical while still maintaining an appetizing and nutritious diet.0 -
and yeah, this bothers me too -What's ironic though is that the omega 3's that are being introduced to all types of processed foods are ALA's which are cheap to get, but aren't as effective as fish oil's EPA and DHA content, actually ALA is pretty much non functional for most people, but it's cheap like I said and they have a marketing campaign that I guess falls within legal parameters.0
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I agree, it has to do with the degree of refinement for just about everything we eat, and we are what we eat.Here's the problem, we as humans should be consuming about 4 % omega's of total calories and if someone is consuming 30% fat you can bet 15% of that fat is from these veg oils.......mother nature isn't stupid, she's not trying to kill us, she's made these natural fats available so we can thrive and procreate without problems. This isn't rocket science, but sometimes you won't find the information on the first page of google, sometimes real hard fought research is required, but from the amount of people that are agreeing with this notion is basically a 360 from even 5 years ago, and then there's people that will always believe mother nature is trying to kill us....those poor natives in the tropics eating all that palm and coconut oil.....we need to save them.....whoops we tried that, didn't we.
I don't think you can bet that at all, I am eating over 30% of calories as fat, that is from cheese, whole eggs, oily fish, avocados, creamed coconut, a little nuts, seeds and cocoa. If I fry I use a tiny bit of coconut oil or red palm oil, in the past I have used extra virgin olive oil as plenty of Europeans do. I know of a fair few eating in a similar way to me, many are using far less cheese and egg yolks but more ground flaxseeds and more natural peanut butter. There is nothing new fangled about eating wholefoods, it's been going on for decades.
Having said that I don't really see how coconut oil, palm, ghee or bacon fat are that much more 'natural' than rapeseed oil or olive pomace, they are all extracted and somewhat refined it's just degrees. I am not aware of any evidence all these foods were specifically provided by Mother Nature for the benefit of our species, I was rather under the impression milk was originally intended to nourish a calf, an egg for a chicken embryo, a nut for a plant seedling and so on. 0 -
Edited so I don't disrupt the geekfest going on - its interesting stuff (I am not being sarcastic fwiw).0
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Ray Peat is a big proponent of eliminating all pufa's from the diet, he absolutely believes they are too fragile to consume. He's right they are fragile and we don't need much, which aligns with my thinking as well, but we do need some and I agree with Chris Masterjohn that they are very important for good health.......Was there something specific you were wondering about?neanderthin, what are your thoughts here? Just some previous posts I made that interested me.I understand, I just like to get simple blood tests done to determine what if anything I might need before supplementing with something I don't.
I'd love to discuss the following, if someone would care to poke some holes in it? I'm serious, trying to learn here.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtmlSilverkittycat
Joined Jun 2011
Posts: 1,996
Sat 08/04/12 08:56 PM
and I know Masterjohn's past, but he has made some very good points in his reports lately, just an intro -
The PUFA Report Part 1: A Critical Review of the Requirement for Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids
Current reviews and textbooks call the omega-6 linoleic acid and the omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid "essential fatty acids" (EFA) and cite the EFA requirement as one to four percent of calories. Research suggests, however, that the omega-6 arachidonic acid (AA) and the omega-3 docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) are the only fatty acids that are truly essential. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) occurs in fish products but is probably not a normal constituent of the mammalian body and in excess it interferes with essential AA metabolism. The EFA requirement cited in the scientific literature is inflated by several factors: the use of diets composed mostly of sucrose, glucose, or corn syrup; the use of diets deficient in vitamin B6; the use of purified fatty acids instead of whole foods; the use of questionable biochemical markers rather than verifiable symptoms as an index for EFA deficiency; and the generalization from studies using young, growing animals to adults. The true requirement for EFA during growth and development is less than 0.5 percent of calories when supplied by most animal fats and less than 0.12 percent of calories when supplied by liver. On diets low in heated vegetable oils and sugar and rich in essential minerals, biotin, and vitamin B6, the requirement is likely to be much lower than this. Adults recovering from injury, suffering from degenerative diseases involving oxidative stress, or seeking to build muscle mass mass may have a similar requirement. For women who are seeking to conceive, pregnant, or lactating, the EFA requirement may be as high as one percent of calories. In other healthy adults, however, the requirement is infinitesimal if it exists at all. The best sources of EFAs are liver, butter, and egg yolks, especially from animals raised on pasture. During pregnancy, lactation, and childhood, small amounts of cod liver oil may be useful to provide extra DHA, but otherwise this supplement should be used only when needed to obtain fat-soluble vitamins. Vegetarians or others who eat a diet low in animal fat should consider symptoms such as scaly skin, hair loss or infertility to be signs of EFA deficiency and add B6 or animal fats to their diets. An excess of linoleate from vegetable oil will interfere with the production of DHA while an excess of EPA from fish oil will interfere with the production and utilization of AA. EFA are polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) that contribute to oxidative stress. Vitamin E and other antioxidant nutrients cannot fully protect against oxidative stress induced by dietary PUFA. Therefore, the consumption of EFA should be kept as close to the minimum requirement as is practical while still maintaining an appetizing and nutritious diet.0 -
Others are already busy on telling you about the types of fat.. I just want to mention you should try to eat more fat than you happened to do today..0
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Ray Peat is a big proponent of eliminating all pufa's from the diet, he absolutely believes they are too fragile to consume. He's right they are fragile and we don't need much, which aligns with my thinking as well, but we do need some and I agree with Chris Masterjohn that they are very important for good health.......Was there something specific you were wondering about?neanderthin, what are your thoughts here? Just some previous posts I made that interested me.I understand, I just like to get simple blood tests done to determine what if anything I might need before supplementing with something I don't.
I'd love to discuss the following, if someone would care to poke some holes in it? I'm serious, trying to learn here.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtmlSilverkittycat
Joined Jun 2011
Posts: 1,996
Sat 08/04/12 08:56 PM
and I know Masterjohn's past, but he has made some very good points in his reports lately, just an intro -
The PUFA Report Part 1: A Critical Review of the Requirement for Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids
Current reviews and textbooks call the omega-6 linoleic acid and the omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid "essential fatty acids" (EFA) and cite the EFA requirement as one to four percent of calories. Research suggests, however, that the omega-6 arachidonic acid (AA) and the omega-3 docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) are the only fatty acids that are truly essential. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) occurs in fish products but is probably not a normal constituent of the mammalian body and in excess it interferes with essential AA metabolism. The EFA requirement cited in the scientific literature is inflated by several factors: the use of diets composed mostly of sucrose, glucose, or corn syrup; the use of diets deficient in vitamin B6; the use of purified fatty acids instead of whole foods; the use of questionable biochemical markers rather than verifiable symptoms as an index for EFA deficiency; and the generalization from studies using young, growing animals to adults. The true requirement for EFA during growth and development is less than 0.5 percent of calories when supplied by most animal fats and less than 0.12 percent of calories when supplied by liver. On diets low in heated vegetable oils and sugar and rich in essential minerals, biotin, and vitamin B6, the requirement is likely to be much lower than this. Adults recovering from injury, suffering from degenerative diseases involving oxidative stress, or seeking to build muscle mass mass may have a similar requirement. For women who are seeking to conceive, pregnant, or lactating, the EFA requirement may be as high as one percent of calories. In other healthy adults, however, the requirement is infinitesimal if it exists at all. The best sources of EFAs are liver, butter, and egg yolks, especially from animals raised on pasture. During pregnancy, lactation, and childhood, small amounts of cod liver oil may be useful to provide extra DHA, but otherwise this supplement should be used only when needed to obtain fat-soluble vitamins. Vegetarians or others who eat a diet low in animal fat should consider symptoms such as scaly skin, hair loss or infertility to be signs of EFA deficiency and add B6 or animal fats to their diets. An excess of linoleate from vegetable oil will interfere with the production of DHA while an excess of EPA from fish oil will interfere with the production and utilization of AA. EFA are polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) that contribute to oxidative stress. Vitamin E and other antioxidant nutrients cannot fully protect against oxidative stress induced by dietary PUFA. Therefore, the consumption of EFA should be kept as close to the minimum requirement as is practical while still maintaining an appetizing and nutritious diet.
I'll get back to you, sorry, sleepy and discussing Masterjohn's claim that DHA and AA (arachidonic acid) are essential and that EPA occurs in fish and doesn't belong in the mammalian body as it interferes with the body's use of AA. Too many boards, sorry....0
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