If you're still hungry, can you really be overeating?
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Ok, let's take your milkshake example again. Since you say it isn't 20 minutes let's cut it down say it's 5 minutes. If you try to down as many milkshakes as you can within 5 minutes, do you think you'll get through more than one before your body says "ok, enough, we can't take any more?" I bet you do. Yet, if you drank it slowly, do you think you'll want another afterwards? Maybe, but probably not.0
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Ever try to chug a gallon of water straight? You're going to throw it up because your stomach can't hold that much. COMPLETELY different signals to stop eating! It's like you are throwing common sense out the window and arguing semantics with straw man arguments in an effort to "be right."
I'm curious how the signals are different.
If you took a food with the same carb/fat/protein ratio as a 32oz milkshake and gave it 5 minutes to eat/drink them both, would it take a different amount of time for your brain to register it? What would be the difference in satiety? How long would you feel full after?
I just find these points interesting and would like to learn more.0 -
Something else to consider...our bodies do not necessarily need the same amount of calories each day, and I'm not just talking about exercise calories for that particular day. Our bodies don't automatically reset at midnight every night...so if you feel like you need to eat more on one day occasionally, then try it. If the scale starts moving up in a way that you don't like (or more importantly, your measurements start moving in a way you don't like), then make the necessary adjustments. Until then, why not try listening to your body cues? Perhaps your signalling system isn't broken and will serve you just fine.
ETA: Whoops, didn't realize I was posting this in the middle of a broscience battle. My apologies for the C-C-C-Combo Breaker!0 -
The answer is YES!!!0
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You can overeat on the wrong foods. For instance, a tablespoon of olive oil is 120 calories yet you won't feel it's effects in terms of satiety, and thus will still feel hungry. Many processed foods are loaded with oils, etc. Focus on calorie density for weight loss. There are some foods you can eat until satisfaction and still lose weight.0
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You can overeat on the wrong foods. For instance, a tablespoon of olive oil is 120 calories yet you won't feel it's effects in terms of satiety, and thus will still feel hungry. Many processed foods are loaded with oils, etc. Focus on calorie density for weight loss. There are some foods you can eat until satisfaction and still lose weight.
I don't know if that's particularly true. For many people, high fat foods are very satiating. In fact, it's difficult to get more "calorie density" than in something like olive oil.
Also, over time, I think people may be able to train/change their satisfaction indicators.0 -
I think so too - and at the risk of oversimplifying it, I think it's a matter of learning to differentiate between "satisfied" vs. "completely stuffed". I also think part of it is learning what foods induce satiety, which is a very individual thing....Also, over time, I think people may be able to train/change their satisfaction indicators.0 -
You can overeat on the wrong foods. For instance, a tablespoon of olive oil is 120 calories yet you won't feel it's effects in terms of satiety, and thus will still feel hungry. Many processed foods are loaded with oils, etc. Focus on calorie density for weight loss. There are some foods you can eat until satisfaction and still lose weight.
I don't know if that's particularly true. For many people, high fat foods are very satiating. In fact, it's difficult to get more "calorie density" than in something like olive oil.
Also, over time, I think people may be able to train/change their satisfaction indicators.
I lost 90 pounds following a low-fat, low calorie density approach. I eat MORE food than I have ever eaten before and maintain my weight without any exercise. Barbara Rolls out of Penn State headed the research on a calorie density approach (or Volumetrics approach) to weight loss. There's a lot of great information out there if you would like to take a read.
http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/volumetrics-diet0 -
I think so too - and at the risk of oversimplifying it, I think it's a matter of learning to differentiate between "satisfied" vs. "completely stuffed". I also think part of it is learning what foods induce satiety, which is a very individual thing....Also, over time, I think people may be able to train/change their satisfaction indicators.
You're probably right in your possibly overly-simplified interpretation of it. Like it's a change from believing physically stuffed = stop eating to satiated = stop eating. This also necessitates a change from looking for foods that physically fill you up while being as low-calorie as possible to looking for foods that are satiating and of an appropriate calorie density to reach your target while also being sufficiently satisfying...all of which I believe are wonderful arguments for accurately and consistently tracking (regardless of whatever it is you're eating at the moment), because this data is incredibly valuable to "breaking the code" and figuring out what works for you as an individual.
(That said, personally, I believe that people are more similar than different once they actually figure it out, but self-experimentation and data-keeping are far more useful to actually figuring it out than just imitating what you believe others are doing.)0 -
Agreed. I don't buy the "unique little snowflake" thing. Personal preference comes into play as far as comfort/adherence, but in the end it all comes down to calories out > calories in.(That said, personally, I believe that people are more similar than different once they actually figure it out, but self-experimentation and data-keeping are far more useful to actually figuring it out than just imitating what you believe others are doing.)0 -
I think so too - and at the risk of oversimplifying it, I think it's a matter of learning to differentiate between "satisfied" vs. "completely stuffed". I also think part of it is learning what foods induce satiety, which is a very individual thing....Also, over time, I think people may be able to train/change their satisfaction indicators.
You're probably right in your possibly overly-simplified interpretation of it. Like it's a change from believing physically stuffed = stop eating to satiated = stop eating. This also necessitates a change from looking for foods that physically fill you up while being as low-calorie as possible to looking for foods that are satiating and of an appropriate calorie density to reach your target while also being sufficiently satisfying...all of which I believe are wonderful arguments for accurately and consistently tracking (regardless of whatever it is you're eating at the moment), because this data is incredibly valuable to "breaking the code" and figuring out what works for you as an individual.
(That said, personally, I believe that people are more similar than different once they actually figure it out, but self-experimentation and data-keeping are far more useful to actually figuring it out than just imitating what you believe others are doing.)
I like this. Kind of like finding the balance between whole nutritional foods, junk foods, feeling satisfied and feeling full.0 -
Nvm, some people think they're right and nothing can change their mind.. It's all very simple and your body tells you everything you need to know, even though you are here trying to lose weight because you listened to your body all along anyway.. whatever. I'm down almost 70 pounds in under 6 months, I'll just keep up my "Broscience" as I watch my 6 pack come in :-) My "instructor" that set me up worked with the Mayo clinic of Boston, I'll just keep listening to him.0
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Bump0
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Broscience lol.. I'm sorry I guess I missed the links in your posts to support your opinion, or your qualifications. My bad.Something else to consider...our bodies do not necessarily need the same amount of calories each day, and I'm not just talking about exercise calories for that particular day. Our bodies don't automatically reset at midnight every night...so if you feel like you need to eat more on one day occasionally, then try it. If the scale starts moving up in a way that you don't like (or more importantly, your measurements start moving in a way you don't like), then make the necessary adjustments. Until then, why not try listening to your body cues? Perhaps your signalling system isn't broken and will serve you just fine.
ETA: Whoops, didn't realize I was posting this in the middle of a broscience battle. My apologies for the C-C-C-Combo Breaker!
You didn't miss my links, I just didn't post any...
...so don't waste any more time looking for them...because they aren't in there.
That said, I'm sticking to my previous evaluation that the discussion I inadvertently posted in the middle of was more broscience than it was actual Science!.
Oh, and that's still just my personal opinion...so I won't be including any links, studies, qualifications, etc.
ETA: Looks like I quoted before the edit. Just the same, congrats on your n=1 results. Sounds like it's working great for you. That said, be careful that you don't make the incredibly common mistake of assuming that whatever worked for you is precisely what will work for everyone else...or that you have successfully isolated the specific variables that led to your (or others') results.0 -
In the past, I've noticed it's more my mind than my body telling me I'm hungry. If you're weak and shaky, then you may be hungry. Otherwise, it could just be your mind, lying to you! I hate it when that happens. ;(0
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Just another opinion, just like I thought. Have a great day :-)
Broscience lol.. I'm sorry I guess I missed the links in your posts to support your opinion, or your qualifications. My bad.Something else to consider...our bodies do not necessarily need the same amount of calories each day, and I'm not just talking about exercise calories for that particular day. Our bodies don't automatically reset at midnight every night...so if you feel like you need to eat more on one day occasionally, then try it. If the scale starts moving up in a way that you don't like (or more importantly, your measurements start moving in a way you don't like), then make the necessary adjustments. Until then, why not try listening to your body cues? Perhaps your signalling system isn't broken and will serve you just fine.
ETA: Whoops, didn't realize I was posting this in the middle of a broscience battle. My apologies for the C-C-C-Combo Breaker!
You didn't miss my links, I just didn't post any...
...so don't waste any more time looking for them...because they aren't in there.
That said, I'm sticking to my previous evaluation that the discussion I inadvertently posted in the middle of was more broscience than it was actual Science!.
Oh, and that's still just my personal opinion...so I won't be including any links, studies, qualifications, etc.
ETA: Looks like I quoted before the edit. Just the same, congrats on your n=1 results. Sounds like it's working great for you. That said, be careful that you don't make the incredibly common mistake of assuming that whatever worked for you is precisely what will work for everyone else...or that you have successfully isolated the specific variables that led to your (or others') results.0 -
All that and you still want to argue that the body chemical reactions for fullness and satiety are the same whether you fill the stomach by volume or fill it with dense calories, good luck to you!
It's not an instant adjustment to the food you eat. That should be common sense. Just one example.. people who eat slower are generally thinner than people who eat fast. Because it takes time for the chemicals to interact and transmit satiety and pleasure. I'm not debating a 20 minute-not-a-second-longer-not-a-second-less, but to think it's an instant process is quite frankly, insulting. If it was instant, people wouldn't over stuff themselves then feel like they are going to burst a short time later saying "I can't believe I ate that much."
It's not a myth..Yes. it takes about twenty minutes for your stomach to signal to arted eatinheard ofgheardheardg smaller portions, your stomach is a bit enlarged, and so it has to shrink to suit your smaller portion sizes.
That 20min thing is a myth.
I know if I stop eating while I am still hungry and wait 20 minutes, my hunger often stops or lessens and if I dont stop I could have easily chowed down 500 more calories so I dont know if its a myth or not but it works quite often for me
I wouldn't disagree with that. I am challenging "it takes 20mins for your brain to receive the signal." Imagine a 32oz milk shake with the fattiest ice cream and whole milk chugged down. You will be full within a few minutes.
I think what was being discussed was this point.
This article says nothing about "20 minutes" at all.
Or some people just don't care and keep on eating. I am going back to the milkshake example. If you can chug one down in 1 minute which is about 1000-2000 calories. You're telling me you can sit there and drink 20 of them since it takes time for your body to get the signal you're full.
No, like I said before, and you admitted to, filling your stomach regardless of calorie content will send a signal to stop eating. It's not the same thing we're talking about here. Ever take the gallon of milk challenge? Ever try to chug a gallon of water straight? You're going to throw it up because your stomach can't hold that much. COMPLETELY different signals to stop eating! It's like you are throwing common sense out the window and arguing semantics with straw man arguments in an effort to "be right."
Oh, and "some people don't care and keep eating" is the answer and not study after study that shows in general people who eat slower also eat less. My bad.. what are your credentials again?
Your stomach can hold it. Water has the density of 1g/ml. 3.68 liters per gallon I believe. Look up the volume capacity of the stomach. I'm sure you heard of water poisoning. People sometimes chug 2 gallons if not more. You want me to post studies on common sense? That's like saying posta study that states 2+2=4. This stuff is pretty basic.
My credentials?
NASM CPT, currently majoring in biochemistry and of course my Weght loss of over 135 lbs.0 -
Yes. Your brain signals when your insulin levels dip. This will happen rapidly when you are eating a lot of high carb/ high sugar foods. It is very easy to overeat on those kinds of foods because your brain is telling you to eat more calories than you need.0
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Just another opinion, just like I thought. Have a great day :-)
Broscience lol.. I'm sorry I guess I missed the links in your posts to support your opinion, or your qualifications. My bad.Something else to consider...our bodies do not necessarily need the same amount of calories each day, and I'm not just talking about exercise calories for that particular day. Our bodies don't automatically reset at midnight every night...so if you feel like you need to eat more on one day occasionally, then try it. If the scale starts moving up in a way that you don't like (or more importantly, your measurements start moving in a way you don't like), then make the necessary adjustments. Until then, why not try listening to your body cues? Perhaps your signalling system isn't broken and will serve you just fine.
ETA: Whoops, didn't realize I was posting this in the middle of a broscience battle. My apologies for the C-C-C-Combo Breaker!
You didn't miss my links, I just didn't post any...
...so don't waste any more time looking for them...because they aren't in there.
That said, I'm sticking to my previous evaluation that the discussion I inadvertently posted in the middle of was more broscience than it was actual Science!.
Oh, and that's still just my personal opinion...so I won't be including any links, studies, qualifications, etc.
ETA: Looks like I quoted before the edit. Just the same, congrats on your n=1 results. Sounds like it's working great for you. That said, be careful that you don't make the incredibly common mistake of assuming that whatever worked for you is precisely what will work for everyone else...or that you have successfully isolated the specific variables that led to your (or others') results.
Ah, dang it! I mean, I *knew* you'd figure it out, but why'd you have to let everyone else know??? I'm pretty sure I had carefully crafted all of my messages in this thread in a way that made everyone think I was sharing only well-researched facts with absolutely none of my opinions. Now they'll know I was just sharing my opinion.
But seriously, go back and read what I posted in this thread. I think it's very clear (IMHO, of course) that it's just my opinion throughout...(but I also think there's a reasonable position for my opinion too).0 -
Ah, dang it! I mean, I *knew* you'd figure it out, but why'd you have to let everyone else know??? I'm pretty sure I had carefully crafted all of my messages in this thread in a way that made everyone think I was sharing only well-researched facts with absolutely none of my opinions. Now they'll know I was just sharing my opinion.
But seriously, go back and read what I posted in this thread. I think it's very clear (IMHO, of course) that it's just my opinion throughout...(but I also think there's a reasonable position for my opinion too).
You mean... Everything you say is not full concrete facts? 0.o0 -
Meh, it's not that I didn't read the article, it's just that there are no actual citations for any of the information given. It's a pretty brief overview, that doesn't go into near enough detail to prove the point you're trying to make, and it flat out ignores a lot of relevant information that doesn't necessarily agree with what's stated in the article. TL;DR - it's a cherry picked article, which really is about what's expected from dummies.com, the entire point of that site and the books is to dumb things down, so by necessity they tend to leave a lot of things out.
So that explains CCK, but that ignores both leptin and insulin, which also suppress appetite, and also react much quicker. CCK's appetite suppressing effect is really minor at best, it's main function is basically to turn on the digestive system to start digesting food, leptin and insulin are the main hormones that really control satiety. CCK basically suppresses appetite when your nauseous or anxious, it's more part of the fight or flight reflex rather than normal hunger/satiety.
It's not a myth.Yes. it takes about twenty minutes for your stomach to signal to your brain that it's full. Plus, if you've just started eating smaller portions, your stomach is a bit enlarged, and so it has to shrink to suit your smaller portion sizes.
That 20min thing is a myth.
I know if I stop eating while I am still hungry and wait 20 minutes, my hunger often stops or lessens and if I dont stop I could have easily chowed down 500 more calories so I dont know if its a myth or not but it works quite often for me
I wouldn't disagree with that. I am challenging "it takes 20mins for your brain to receive the signal." Imagine a 32oz milk shake with the fattiest ice cream and whole milk chugged down. You will be full within a few minutes.
"http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-your-brain-signals-your-bodys-need-for-food.html
CCK: When you eat, food enters and fills your stomach and then travels to the intestinal tract. As the food is digested and the body’s cells are fed, a chemical called cholecystokinin (CCK) is released, turning on feelings of fullness and turning off the appetite."
It takes 30 minutes or more for food to even get broken down in the stomach and sent to the small intestine. You are talking about filling your stomach to capacity, which is an entirely different signal than turning off the chemicals that signal hunger.
Some christmas education
Since you asked I'll quote some more of the article, which you obviously didn't read, and put it here so you have more info to cherry pick from
"The breakdown products of foods — amino acids from protein, fatty acids from fat, and glucose from carbohydrates — regulate hormones such as insulin, which affect the process at a cellular level. They send messages to the brain telling it that fuel is needed.
When the body needs nourishment, neurotransmitters are released. One neurotransmitter called Neuropeptide Y (NPY) is important in sending messages to various parts of the brain.
Scientists have recently identified two chemicals — ghrelin and leptin — circulating in the blood that communicate with NPY.
Ghrelin and glucose: According to the theory, low levels of glycogen and low blood sugar levels stimulate a spike in ghrelin and NPY’s activity in the hypothalamus. As NPY is stimulated, your desire for sweet and starchy foods goes up. And when ghrelin rises, so does appetite.
While you sleep, your glycogen and blood sugar stores are used up, causing the brain to release NPY. Skipping breakfast increases NPY levels so that by afternoon, you’re set up for a carbohydrate binge. This craving for carbs is not the result of a lack of willpower; it’s an innate biological urge at work.
The leptin link: After eating, leptin levels increase and inhibit the firing of NPY, so you feel full. If it has been a while since you’ve eaten, your blood levels of glucose are low and therefore leptin is low, and ghrelin is high.
The circulating levels of ghrelin peak at different times depending on when you have your heaviest meal. People who eat big lunches show ghrelin peaks at a different time than people whose main meal is at night.
In addition, these processes are at work:
The galanin-fat connection: Galanin is released when fat stores need filling up. In the evening, galanin levels tend to rise, which may be nature’s way of making sure that people have enough calories to last them through the night.
CCK: When you eat, food enters and fills your stomach and then travels to the intestinal tract. As the food is digested and the body’s cells are fed, a chemical called cholecystokinin (CCK) is released, turning on feelings of fullness and turning off the appetite."0
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