Do I need protein shakes?
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When do you need protein shakes?
I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.
Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?
Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.
How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?
Or do you just disregard it entirely?
Exactly my thoughts.0 -
lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.
Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.
Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."
We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.
Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?
I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.
I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.
And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.
And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?0 -
lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.
Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.
Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."
We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.
Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?
I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.
I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.
And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.
And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?
Please stop being logical and quite frankly, correct.0 -
lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.
Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.
Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."
We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.
Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?
I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.
I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.
And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.
And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?
SO you're just talking from education. You know these studies are contradictory. You ever been in a lab, you know how that stuff works or no?
What, like the time your reverse engineered some lab test to get the result you wanted in a class of yours? I think those studies are a smidge more controlled than that!0 -
Nope, not needed but convenient and relatively inexpensive per serving if you want to add more protein to your diet.0
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Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.When do you need protein shakes?
I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.
Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?
How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?
Or do you just disregard it entirely?
can't be less than this raw foodist
or this guy, alkalarian diet... 90% green vegetables
Pretty sure they have a facebook page, look them and ask them.
Ryan Marcotte
Anthony Anderson.
Oh and BOTH at deficit
Did you Dexa scan them to measure lbm changes? Did you Dexa yourself? Will you answer my previous questions or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?0 -
lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.
Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.
Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."
We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.
Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?
I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.
I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.
And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.
And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?
Please stop being logical and quite frankly, correct.
Your logic if flawed sidesteel. If she is correct so are the studies that say fat leads to heart disease. Just because you "READ" something doesn't mean it's true. Even in studies.
It is the interpretation of studies that are an issue. Also, if you are so anti-studies why on earth did you post the one you did, and why did you start a whole thread (the one I linked) trying to prove something a while back which you failed at doing. You failed in proving that and now you are anti-studies?0 -
Just not sure if it is possible to build muscle while losing weight. x
Yes it's possible. I'm coming off a 12 week trainer and I've lost 30 pounds and 7% body fat but I see great changes in muscle development in the mirror. It's all about nutrition and supplementation.
Protein shakes are great for filling in the holes on your protein goal. They are also great right before bed to keep you full and help repair your muscles. That being said, fish and chicken are better sources.
Oh and yes 1g per pound of weight if you are lifting seriously.0 -
lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.
Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.
Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."
We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.
Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?
I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.
I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.
And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.
And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?
Please stop being logical and quite frankly, correct.
Your logic if flawed sidesteel. If she is correct so are the studies that say fat leads to heart disease. Just because you "READ" something doesn't mean it's true. Even in studies.
Your ability to exercise context is non existent.0 -
I like using protein shakes for several reasons. One, because I sometimes have a hard time getting my protein intake up and it's an easy way to make sure I'm getting enough. It's also useful on days when I burn a lot of calories, I can get my protein intake up without having to eat a crap ton of food. I also like them right after I lift weights too, because it's a fast and easy way to get my protein and aids in recovery.
You should absolutely lift weights while losing weight. It will be harder to build muscle while eating at a deficit, but you will still build muscle, which will burn more calories at rest.0 -
Glad you said this, didn't want to tear apart another study. You're right I am anti study. I provide them for people like you. I don't care what any study says for the most part. The people who think the studies are the END ALL BE ALL and are the absolute answer.
Then you are basing your 'don't worry about protein' comments,, made without context and dosage information, based on absolutely nothing then.....got it!
And what study have you torn apart exactly??0 -
There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)0
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OP:
You can either keep your protein as it is or ignore it all together, which may well be less than optimal based on numerous peer reviewed studies and experts in the field such as Alan Aragon and Eric Helms, or you can increase your protein, minimize the possibility at being at too low of a protein number, which incidentally is more satiating and has a higher TEF than carbs. To me, is a no-brainer.0 -
Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.When do you need protein shakes?
I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.
Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?
How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?
Or do you just disregard it entirely?
can't be less than this raw foodist
or this guy, alkalarian diet... 90% green vegetables
Pretty sure they have a facebook page, look them and ask them.
Ryan Marcotte
Anthony Anderson.
Oh and BOTH at deficit
Did you Dexa scan them to measure lbm changes? Did you Dexa yourself? Will you answer my previous questions or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Aragon say in the protein round table "I seen some funky things with DEXA." If he did, why would you mention it?
To answer your question "Do i think protein intake is completely irrelevant?" No.
All methods of bf estimation have error aside from autopsy. I'm questioning you because your belief seems to be that you are not losing lbm and your vegetarian buddies up there did not either. I am asking if you chose something reliable as a measure of lbm status to validate this claim.0 -
There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)
While you actually can gain minimal amounts of lbm during a deficit, the strength gaining component is largely neurological (rate coding). Often times people make reasonable strength gains while they may not gain any lbm at all.0 -
Glad you said this, didn't want to tear apart another study. You're right I am anti study. I provide them for people like you. I don't care what any study says for the most part. The people who think the studies are the END ALL BE ALL and are the absolute answer.
Then you are basing your 'don't worry about protein' comments,, made without context and dosage information, based on absolutely nothing then.....got it!
And what study have you torn apart exactly??
Context and dosage is based off calorie intake As I said in other posts it's not like you're going to eat 100% carbs or 100% fat in your diet. The only situation recommend a semi high protein intake if a person is eating very little carbs and fats. The study in the other topic, you said "you can knit pick my study" or something along those lines.
"Context and dosage is based off calorie intake" - nope, that is not what I meant
"The only situation recommend a semi high protein intake if a person is eating very little carbs and fats." - The studies I posted would disagree with this.
"The study in the other topic, you said "you can knit pick my study" or something along those lines" I have no idea what you are talking about to be honest.0 -
There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)
While you actually can gain minimal amounts of lbm during a deficit, the strength gaining component is largely neurological (rate coding). Often times people make reasonable strength gains while they may not gain any lbm at all.
Yet most of you guys recommend "LIFT HEAVY" for body composition. Lifting heavy is mostly neurological
Are you drunk right now? Srs question Pu.0 -
Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.
So save your money.
Actually per grams of protein, protein whey is FAR CHEAPER than meat. So to save money buy the whey over additional servings of meat. Having a balanced diet of both is very good.0 -
Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.
So save your money.
Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.
Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.
Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397
How is renal disease related to the topic of discussion? The study doesn't conclude anything profound and does nothing to confirm your initial claim. It concludes that people who lift weights and consume low amounts of protein will still have a "slight increase" of LBM. This is completely irrelevant from what is optimal, or at the very least standard. We are discussing adequate protein intake for HEALTHY individuals, specifically an individual who is going to be in a caloric deficit. You cannot reasonably and scientifically argue anything less than 1g per pound of body weight, especially a drastic reduction of protein, is going to be superior in terms of muscle preservation. Maybe tolerable, not superior. "There is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake."... Are you even serious?0 -
Yet most of you guys recommend "LIFT HEAVY" for body composition. Lifting heavy is mostly neurological adaptation.
Really??????0
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