Can someone explain "newbie gains?"

5stringjeff

So I've read through a few of the threads here, including the info for beginners thread in this forum. There are a lot of references to "newbie gains," i.e. being able to lose some fat and gain some muscle at the same time for the first 2-4 months of strength training. Can someone explain exactly how this works? It seems counter-intuitive to me.

As for me, I've lost about 20 pounds, but I've got little muscle definition. My goal, just like many, is to lose the extra body fat (I'm at roughly 21-23% BF now) and build muscle mass. From the threads I've read, a good beginning goal is to use a cutting routine to lose the body fat, then use a bulking routine to build the muscle mass. That's my plan going in, though I'd appreciate hearing other thoughts.

BTW, I'm not a complete newbie in all of this. I spent five years in the Army, but most of my PT went towards making sure I could do enough pushups and situps to pass the PT test than towards general muscle building. So this will be my first time really lifting for general fitness rather than passing a PT test.

neverstray

It's just that you get really strong really fast as your body changes. Once you get past that point, additional gains is more difficult. And, BTW, you don't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. You lose fat on a calorie deficit and you gain muscle on a calorie surplus. However, as a newbie, you might do seemingly both at the same time...part of the newbie thing.

Good luck.

quirkytizzy

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

cwolfman13

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

that's a damned good analogy

SideSteel

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

^ I like this.

sanndandi

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

love that

nguk123

Quoted source : http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

So consider an individual who is carrying quite a bit of fat and not very much muscle. Your typical overfat beginner trainee. Let’s look a bit at what’s going on physiologically for this person.
One consequence of the excess body fat is a systemic insulin resistance and this is especially true for fat cells. Basically, when fat cells start to get full, they become more resistant to further caloric storage. That is to say: insulin resistance actually develops as an adaptation to obesity and this is one reason that obesity is often associated with things like hyperglycemia, hypertriglyercidemia and hypercholesterolemia; the fat cells get so full that they stop accepting more calories. So instead of being stored, glucose, triglycerides and cholesterol sit in the bloodstream. In that vein, and quite contrary to popular belief, insulin resistance actually predicts weight loss and insulin sensitivity weight gain but that’s another topic for another day.
So we have a situation in overfat folks where fat cells are sort of trying to ‘push calories away’ from the fat cells. That’s point #1.
The second thing to consider is the untrained state and the fact that when people start training, they always make gains in both strength and muscle mass faster. That is, beginners have the potential to gain muscle at a much faster rate (and more easily in terms of the stimulus needed) than someone trained. As well, keep in mind that regular training (both resistance training and cardio) improve muscular insulin sensitivity and nutrient uptake in that one specific tissue (training is probably the most powerful tool in our arsenal to improve nutrient uptake in that specific a fashion). That’s point #2.
So consider the combination: we have a situation with overfat beginners where fat cells are very insulin resistant and essentially trying to push calories away. Now we throw training on that, not only sending a muscle building stimulus via training but increasing nutrient uptake into skeletal muscle through effects on skeletal muscle nutrient uptake/insulin sensitivity.
And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you’d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle. And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required. A lean beginner won’t see the above because they don’t have the fat to lose/fat energy to shunt to the muscle. And as they get more advanced, the rate of muscle gain slows way down. Again, it’s the combination of overfat and beginner status that comes together here to let some magic occur.
And even there you’re not going to see the body replacing one pound of fat with one pound of muscle for very long. The rates of the different processes are simply too different. What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ‘replaces’ fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

Yogi_Carl

Is it also true that there is an un-tapped strength potential in the muscles of a beginner due to not all muscle nerve endings being stimulated until you begin strength building exercises?

This is the reason why there is a significant increase in strength before you see any muscle growth?

Justjoshin

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

That's awesome

nguk123

Yes, in the earliest stages of training, much improvement from one session to the next is attributed to improvements in your neurological ability to command your existing muscle fibres to contract. Your mind needs to practice telling your muscles to contract to an extent in which it hasn't needed to tell them to contract before.

jaxxie

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

THE.BEST.EVER!

Gallowmere1984

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

That's quite possibly one of the best ways I have heard it explained.

Using myself as an example: Started at about a 245 lbs. body weight and 26% bodyfat, all lifts were crap (Bench press could hardly get 95 lbs. off of my chest, deadlift could hardly pull 135 off of the floor, squat could barely complete a set of 115 for 5 without feeling like I was going to collapse). Within three months my bench went up to 215, my deadlift up to 405, and my squat up to 345, and my body weight down to 225. Since then, over the last month, my bench is only at 235, my deadlift is only at 425 (getting close to competing a 455) and my squat is only at 395.

As you can tell, over the last month, my strength gains have slowed a LOT compared to the first three months. Basically, it's not some magical 6 month window, as I ripped through my noob gains phase in half of that time. You'll know when you are there.

Bobby__Clerici

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

^ I like this.

Same here...I knew my adventure quest skills would serve me well some day!

Yogi_Carl

Yes, in the earliest stages of training, much improvement from one session to the next is attributed to improvements in your neurological ability to command your existing muscle fibres to contract. Your mind needs to practice telling your muscles to contract to an extent in which it hasn't needed to tell them to contract before.

Thanks - that is the best explanation I have had on this.

toddis

It's my understanding that initially your muscles learn how to move weight better, not necessarily get stronger (more activation vs growth)

5stringjeff

Quoted source : http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

So consider an individual who is carrying quite a bit of fat and not very much muscle. Your typical overfat beginner trainee. Let’s look a bit at what’s going on physiologically for this person.
One consequence of the excess body fat is a systemic insulin resistance and this is especially true for fat cells. Basically, when fat cells start to get full, they become more resistant to further caloric storage. That is to say: insulin resistance actually develops as an adaptation to obesity and this is one reason that obesity is often associated with things like hyperglycemia, hypertriglyercidemia and hypercholesterolemia; the fat cells get so full that they stop accepting more calories. So instead of being stored, glucose, triglycerides and cholesterol sit in the bloodstream. In that vein, and quite contrary to popular belief, insulin resistance actually predicts weight loss and insulin sensitivity weight gain but that’s another topic for another day.
So we have a situation in overfat folks where fat cells are sort of trying to ‘push calories away’ from the fat cells. That’s point #1.
The second thing to consider is the untrained state and the fact that when people start training, they always make gains in both strength and muscle mass faster. That is, beginners have the potential to gain muscle at a much faster rate (and more easily in terms of the stimulus needed) than someone trained. As well, keep in mind that regular training (both resistance training and cardio) improve muscular insulin sensitivity and nutrient uptake in that one specific tissue (training is probably the most powerful tool in our arsenal to improve nutrient uptake in that specific a fashion). That’s point #2.
So consider the combination: we have a situation with overfat beginners where fat cells are very insulin resistant and essentially trying to push calories away. Now we throw training on that, not only sending a muscle building stimulus via training but increasing nutrient uptake into skeletal muscle through effects on skeletal muscle nutrient uptake/insulin sensitivity.
And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you’d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle. And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required. A lean beginner won’t see the above because they don’t have the fat to lose/fat energy to shunt to the muscle. And as they get more advanced, the rate of muscle gain slows way down. Again, it’s the combination of overfat and beginner status that comes together here to let some magic occur.
And even there you’re not going to see the body replacing one pound of fat with one pound of muscle for very long. The rates of the different processes are simply too different. What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ‘replaces’ fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

This totally makes sense. Thanks.

And I appreciate the video game analogy as well!

CoderGal

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

nice.

Capt_Apollo

I think of it like a video game. At first, the levels are real easy to blow through, but as you level up, the time in between and work needed to do to reach that next point increases.

nerdgasm

Yogi_Carl

It's my understanding that initially your muscles learn how to move weight better, not necessarily get stronger (more activation vs growth)

Splitting hairs probably but I think your muscles do get stronger though not necessarily bigger as more nerve pathways are activated. Those inactive muscle fibres are now being activated by nerve stimulation so in effect, the muscle starts to use more and more strength potential already in the muscle before growth is needed. It's not just a matter of learning efficiency of weight movement though that also plays its part in newbie gains.

Of course, I may be completely wrong but that is my observaton of my own development. I have gained in strength though not in very much growth, which goes in my favour in the main activities I am training for.