Extreme muscle soreness and/or DOMS

funkycamper

I'm hitting a bit of a wall with my exercise routines due to extreme muscle soreness which is often DOMS but not always. I started back to exercising in August 2011 and the only time I have not been sore since then is when I have taken a week off. Sometimes I just have to do that because I'm so tired of being sore that I just need a break from it. Lately, my mind and body are tired of fighting through the soreness and it's making keeping up my exercise program difficult.

I've tried drinking more water, protein, stretching, sleep, longer warm-ups/cool-downs, upping my calories, massage, foam roller, epsom salt baths, hot tubs, steam rooms, saunas...you name it, I've tried it. No relief.

I took a week off from exercising over Christmas and finally got to where I was feeling good, did a solid heavy-weight training session on Saturday, and haven't been able to push myself to exercise since. My legs are so weak that going up stairs seems challenging (especially in my glutes and upper hams). And I feel extremely fatigued even though I slept 14 hours on Saturday night, conking out at 5pm, up for about 2 hours in the middle of the night, and back to sleep until about 9am.

I'm just mentally tired of fighting through this. The mental fatigue of it all is worse than the physical fatigue. Especially since I'm seeing little to no progress. I haven't lost a pound since May even though I still have at least 30# to lose, maybe more. Haven't lost any inches either even though I've been lifting heavy since last January. I am stronger but would really love to get out of my size 10's.

Anyway, sorry if I sound like a whiner but others I talk to at the gym don't seem to have this problem to near the extent I do and it's just getting me down lately.

Tips?

cgeorge5555

Have you tried a post workout recovery drink within 45 mins of your workout? Something between 3 or 6-1 carb to protein and a little sugar as a catalyst. 8-10 ounces of Low fat organic chocolate milk works well and it's relatively cheap (at least for now). I add a little L-Glutamine powder to mine as well. Definitely helps me with DOMS and general soreness.

R0asted

I've been lifting for 14 years and I still get DOMS from leg day pretty much every single time. It's just part of lifting. Back can be almost as bad. How regularly are you lifting?

I find that if I take time off, even a week, the week back will be BRUTAL. Hell, anything more than a week between leg workouts are BRUTAL but if I hit the same muscle group regularly, my body gets used to it and isn't as bad. I actually had the least leg DOMS when I worked out legs twice a week. Think of it as motivation to hit the gym regularly. If you skip a workout you will be paying for it the following week.

funkycamper

You may be low on potassium. You could try it in pill form. I'm always low even eating potassium rich foods.

I never thought of that. I know low potassium can trigger cramping but that's not really what I'm experiencing. But, heck, it's worth a try. I switched my diary to track potassium and even with a banana, my level is low today. So I'll add a potassium supplement to my shopping list. Thanks!

funkycamper

Have you tried a post workout recovery drink within 45 mins of your workout? Something between 3 or 6-1 carb to protein and a little sugar as a catalyst. 8-10 ounces of Low fat organic chocolate milk works well and it's relatively cheap (at least for now). I add a little L-Glutamine powder to mine as well. Definitely helps me with DOMS and general soreness.

I usually drink a protein drink (60 grams + BCAAs) after a workout. Or mix some protein powder into a yogurt. Once in a blue moon, I'll have chocolate milk. I wonder if I need the L-Glutamine? Something else to try. Thanks!

funkycamper

I've been lifting for 14 years and I still get DOMS from leg day pretty much every single time. It's just part of lifting. Back can be almost as bad. How regularly are you lifting?

I usually lift twice a week. I also do bootcamp classes, run, cycle, etc. I tend to mix it up but the lifting is usually on my schedule each week. I only miss a week, like last week, once in awhile.

I find that if I take time off, even a week, the week back will be BRUTAL. Hell, anything more than a week between leg workouts are BRUTAL but if I hit the same muscle group regularly, my body gets used to it and isn't as bad. I actually had the least leg DOMS when I worked out legs twice a week. Think of it as motivation to hit the gym regularly. If you skip a workout you will be paying for it the following week.

I don't notice a difference when I've taken time off and come back, or when I lift consistently, I always have it after lifting. Yes, leg day is worse than upper-body day. I'm switching to Stronglifts 5x5 in the next couple of weeks so I'll be doing squats every time. Oh, gosh, I hope it doesn't get worse with that! Even though SL5x5 is supposed to be 3x/week, I'm only planning on doing it 2x/week. I just can't lift more than that and still do the other workouts I enjoy. It just zaps me too much and makes me too weak to run or do the other things I like to do.

Basically, I'm in permanent DOMS when I'm exercising. It's not the same as sore muscles. I can tell the difference. The DOMS has fatigue and weakness with it that I don't feel from just sore muscles from a good workout. Sometimes I have both but, normally, just more the DOMS-like symptoms.

I'm wondering if it might be partly just due to age? I'm 55, post-menopausal, so....well, who knows?

Question: I tend to get most of my protein from protein drinks as I just have a really hard time eating enough meat. I'm no vegetarian or anything but I can only stand meat in small doses, mixed in with other foods, like small pieces in a stir-fry. Sitting down to a big slab of meat or poultry just nauseates me. Once in awhile I enjoy it...which always surprises me when it happens but, most of the time, I just can't do it. Maybe I need to force myself to up my meat consumption to get my protein from more natural sources?

Mokey41

DOMS is just sore muscles. It doesn't involve weakness or fatigue.

ingies2011

If you are on statins (to lower cholesterol) it could be something serious like an adverse drug reaction, if so see your Dr. Prob not a bad idea to see your dr anyways as I've not heard of someone staying really sore for so long.

letjog

Please don't take potassium supplements, they're dangerous! Just increase your intake of food that contains potassium. Supplements can increase the levels very quickly causing cardiac arrhythmias and life threatening problems. WHen I give them to hospital patients it's only ever for a few days.

diodelcibo

Basically your body is not repairing your connective tissue fast enough before it is being used , if you want less doms you have to increase how quickly your body makes connective tissue.this can be done by more frequent stimulation and more efficient nutrition.

Also feeling dons does not indicate a good workout.

dhakiyya

DOMS is just sore muscles. It doesn't involve weakness or fatigue.

^^^^ This.

What you are describing sounds more like overtraining or a medical issue than normal DOMS. DOMS is muscle soreness, also feeling stiff, and you may find it hard to walk, sit down etc, purely because the muscles feel sore and stiff, but feeling weak is not normal for DOMS.

My first question is whether you're giving each muscle group enough time to recover after each workout, you should leave 48 hrs before working the same muscle group again, otherwise your body does not get time to recover, and you end up not making progress because you never give your muscles a chance to repair and rebuild themselves after the workout. If you're already leaving 48 hrs, try leaving 72 hrs. If you're leaving 72 hrs or more between each workout involving the same muscle groups, then the next paragraph applies. Going to the gym 6 days a week is okay, but only if your workout is designed so each individual muscle group gets the right amount of rest between workouts.

I'm not a doctor so can't give medical advice, but if I was experiencing these symptoms in spite of ensuring that each muscle group got enough rest (48-72 hrs) before the next time I work out the same muscle group, and was also paying attention to good nutrition, i.e. enough calories, macros etc, then I'd go and see a doctor and find out what's going on.

nz_deevaa

Try drinking coconut water for potassium.

EvgeniZyntx

See a Dr. - Extreme muscle weakness, especially if you are taking a medication is dangerous.
What you are describing, muscle weakness not related to DOMS is called myasthenia - there are a variety of conditions that can lead to this and they should be looked at quickly - do not waste time with self treatment solutions which might or might not manage this.

Dauntlessness

Go see a doctor. We are not qualified to answer this.

Saying that, what happened to me is an Iron deficiency which can cause soreness and extreme fatigue and its not dangerous to take the normal dose over otc stuff if you wanna try it. But seriously. Go see a doctor.

Also, I will be starting creatine this year which is suppose to help build muscle and make things easier. Here is a link from a friend of mine.

=http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/611349-let-s-talk-about-creatine

funkycamper

DOMS is just sore muscles. It doesn't involve weakness or fatigue.

Really? I've scoured the web and read dozens of articles about it and muscle fatigue and weakness in the muscle until it recovers is often mentioned as a symptom. I thought that was what characterized the difference between DOMS and plain old sore muscles. Now confused.

funkycamper

DOMS is just sore muscles. It doesn't involve weakness or fatigue.

^^^^ This.

What you are describing sounds more like overtraining or a medical issue than normal DOMS. DOMS is muscle soreness, also feeling stiff, and you may find it hard to walk, sit down etc, purely because the muscles feel sore and stiff, but feeling weak is not normal for DOMS.

My first question is whether you're giving each muscle group enough time to recover after each workout, you should leave 48 hrs before working the same muscle group again, otherwise your body does not get time to recover, and you end up not making progress because you never give your muscles a chance to repair and rebuild themselves after the workout. If you're already leaving 48 hrs, try leaving 72 hrs. If you're leaving 72 hrs or more between each workout involving the same muscle groups, then the next paragraph applies. Going to the gym 6 days a week is okay, but only if your workout is designed so each individual muscle group gets the right amount of rest between workouts.

I'm not a doctor so can't give medical advice, but if I was experiencing these symptoms in spite of ensuring that each muscle group got enough rest (48-72 hrs) before the next time I work out the same muscle group, and was also paying attention to good nutrition, i.e. enough calories, macros etc, then I'd go and see a doctor and find out what's going on.

Maybe I don't know how to design a workout properly then. I don't understand how to not use the legs in virtually any kind of exercising one does. If I work my legs hard with the weights, how can I rest them up to 72 hours and do any other kind of exercises? That means I can't bike, run, hike, spin or do kickboxing for 3 days?

I get the vast majority of this feeling in my legs, especially glutes and hams. Sometimes the quads, but not as often, as I'm pretty quad dominant so I try to work the glutes/hams the most. If I get it on my upper-body, it's usually the shoulders. Very, very rarely do I get it in the core, back or arms.

I guess I just can't figure out how I can work out more than about twice a week if it means that I need to rest that much each time I work out. Can someone elaborate?

nguk123

What routine did you achieve this on ?
You need to balance intensity and volume and frequency...

Also I've heard good things about foam rolling, and light cardio for recovery.

JustJennie1

You may be low on potassium. You could try it in pill form. I'm always low even eating potassium rich foods.

I never thought of that. I know low potassium can trigger cramping but that's not really what I'm experiencing. But, heck, it's worth a try. I switched my diary to track potassium and even with a banana, my level is low today. So I'll add a potassium supplement to my shopping list. Thanks!

I would talk to my doctor before starting any sort of potassium supplementation. You don't even know if your levels are low. Potassium is not something you want to screw around and guess at. Too much can be extremely dangerous and there are certain drug interactions you should be aware of. Have a doctor check your levels and see IF you need to supplement.

Bakkasan

I've been lifting for 14 years and I still get DOMS from leg day pretty much every single time. It's just part of lifting. Back can be almost as bad. How regularly are you lifting?

Unfortunately leg days also tear the *kitten* outta me too. Light soreness for anything else but legs are just another animal here.

funkycamper

See a Dr. - Extreme muscle weakness, especially if you are taking a medication is dangerous.
What you are describing, muscle weakness not related to DOMS is called myasthenia - there are a variety of conditions that can lead to this and they should be looked at quickly - do not waste time with self treatment solutions which might or might not manage this.

Interesting. I just spent quite some time reading up on myasthenia. Never heard of it before. I don't seem to have the classic symptoms of a drooping eyelid, blurred or double vision, slurred speech, difficulty chewing and swallowing, or difficulty breathing. And the weakness I feel is limited to muscle areas that have been worked out hard. My arms never get it, even if worked hard. It seems to be mostly my hams, glutes, and shoulders that get it. Rarely quads, calves even if I did a hard leg workout. Also never in the abs/back even if I've really worked my core.

I do get the general fatigue which sleep is the only thing that seems to help. But this isn't after every workout. Probably once or twice a week. Generally just after a heavy weight routine but not always. I normally don't get it from spinning or kickboxing. Once in awhile I get it from running because running seems to be hardest on my body, hence why I typically only do it once a week.

One of the sites I went to had a series of physical tests often done in an initial exam:
* looking upward and sidewards for 30 seconds: ptosis and diplopia
* looking at the feet while lying on the back for 60 seconds
* keeping the arms stretched forward for 60 seconds
* ten deep knee bends
* walking 30 steps on both the toes and the heels
* five situps, lying down and sitting up completely
* "Peek sign": after complete initial apposition of the lid margins, they quickly (within 30 seconds) start to separate and the sclera starts to show

My husband monitored me through them and I could do all of them without a problem. Well, we didn't do the last one as we didn't quite get what the peek sign test meant.

But it's good to know about. I'll certain watch for those type of symptoms. I just cringe at the thought of even getting tested for something like this as our $10,000 deductible medical plan means it's all out-of-pocket and I just really can't handle paying that much for medical tests right now if I'm chasing a phantom. So, thanks for alerting me and I'll keep the list of symptoms handy to watch out for them. If I get those other symptoms or can't do these tests, especially when I'm in a "I really feel like crap" state, I'll consider visiting my doctor.

ETA: I'm not taking any medications. Just nutritional supplements.

funkycamper

Go see a doctor. We are not qualified to answer this.

Saying that, what happened to me is an Iron deficiency which can cause soreness and extreme fatigue and its not dangerous to take the normal dose over otc stuff if you wanna try it. But seriously. Go see a doctor.

Also, I will be starting creatine this year which is suppose to help build muscle and make things easier. Here is a link from a friend of mine.

=http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/611349-let-s-talk-about-creatine

I'm not inclined to think it's iron-related as I'm post-menopausal so it's been about 5 years where I've had any menses which are typically a reason why women have low-iron issues. I know my levels have been checked in the past, back when I was still menstruating, and I was fine then. I've always read that iron supplementation is risky and should be doctor-monitored. I'd read up more on that. I don't eat enough meat and tend to get my protein from protein powders and dairy so maybe I just need to force myself to up my meat consumption? I'll make that a goal and see if it helps before trying supplements. But thanks for that tip as I hadn't thought about iron.

Creatine. Interesting. I've bumped both parts 1 and 2 by your friend to read up more on and will do some other research.

Thanks!

funkycamper

What routine did you achieve this on ?
You need to balance intensity and volume and frequency...

Also I've heard good things about foam rolling, and light cardio for recovery.

Mainly after heavy lifting although, sometimes, my bootcamp class can do it to me. I don't really have a set routine where I do certain things on certain days. I do space my weight workouts out by 2-4 days but, in-between, I'll spin, run, outdoor cycle, hike, or do cardio-kickboxing or bootcamp classes. I don't have set rest days. Some weeks I might only have one rest day. Other weeks, I might have 2-3. It just really depends on my schedule, what I've done, and how intense my fatigue is.

Gosh, the more I write this out and put thought into it, I'm beginning to think it's just over-training. But I need to push myself to achieve the things on my bucket list. Maybe I'm expecting more from this 55yo body than it's wanting to give me?

Haven't tried foam rolling. Heard of it but have forgotten about it. Might be worth a go.

funkycamper

If you are on statins (to lower cholesterol) it could be something serious like an adverse drug reaction, if so see your Dr. Prob not a bad idea to see your dr anyways as I've not heard of someone staying really sore for so long.

No statins. No medications at all.

My crappy medical coverage makes me want to avoid getting doctor involvement at this point but I realize it's something I may have to consider at some point. Thanks!

newmooon56

If you are on statins (to lower cholesterol) it could be something serious like an adverse drug reaction, if so see your Dr. Prob not a bad idea to see your dr anyways as I've not heard of someone staying really sore for so long.

Im 40-soon to be 41 and not long ago posted almost the same question.

Maybe us older folks do need longer recovery or work outs tailored to our age/ability/etc. I can squat 100#s but REALLY want to do body weight squats (another 28 or so #s)

I believe I can do it- my body is holding me back. So now youve heard of 2 ppl taking a really long time to not be sore after a good work out. These may be problems unheard of of to some- but they are real and we'd like some good info on whats going on, can it be helped or prevented or what ever else ppl over 40 need to know (but dont) about lifting and heavy work outs.

newmooon56

If you are on statins (to lower cholesterol) it could be something serious like an adverse drug reaction, if so see your Dr. Prob not a bad idea to see your dr anyways as I've not heard of someone staying really sore for so long.

No statins. No medications at all.

My crappy medical coverage makes me want to avoid getting doctor involvement at this point but I realize it's something I may have to consider at some point. Thanks!

I took my crappy medical coverage to my doc and discussed all this. I really like my doc- but shes in the sick biz- not the well biz. So my "well check up" soup to nuts- after a 30$ co pay and a gillion tests to find out Im a very young and healthy 40 year old still cost me well over 200$ in the portion coverage wouldnt cover.

I asked tons of work out questions and voiced my concerns over certain aches and pains that come from working out. She encouraged me to keep working out- she said its rare to have patients that even try to be healthy. Sad but true.

After that bill came- I vowed to never go to the doc again. Something I semi- vowed years ago, but figured I should have the old "40,000 mile check up" Yea well- its too pricey to be healthy and I got NO info that helped me in my fitness quests. I now pray I dont hurt myself or get sick since I cant friggin afford it.

My next investment in my health is a personal trainer. I hope I can find someone who works with ppl over 40 that are serious about lifting and can guide me thru my trials and set backs.

Good luck to you!

funkycamper

You may be low on potassium. You could try it in pill form. I'm always low even eating potassium rich foods.

I never thought of that. I know low potassium can trigger cramping but that's not really what I'm experiencing. But, heck, it's worth a try. I switched my diary to track potassium and even with a banana, my level is low today. So I'll add a potassium supplement to my shopping list. Thanks!

I would talk to my doctor before starting any sort of potassium supplementation. You don't even know if your levels are low. Potassium is not something you want to screw around and guess at. Too much can be extremely dangerous and there are certain drug interactions you should be aware of. Have a doctor check your levels and see IF you need to supplement.

Thanks for that tip. I'll do more reading up on potassium supplementation before giving it a try.

Gosh, maybe I should just bite the bullet and go get a thorough blood screening.

funkycamper

I've been lifting for 14 years and I still get DOMS from leg day pretty much every single time. It's just part of lifting. Back can be almost as bad. How regularly are you lifting?

Unfortunately leg days also tear the *kitten* outta me too. Light soreness for anything else but legs are just another animal here.

I know!! Maybe I'm just being a wuss. :sad:

funkycamper

If you are on statins (to lower cholesterol) it could be something serious like an adverse drug reaction, if so see your Dr. Prob not a bad idea to see your dr anyways as I've not heard of someone staying really sore for so long.

No statins. No medications at all.

My crappy medical coverage makes me want to avoid getting doctor involvement at this point but I realize it's something I may have to consider at some point. Thanks!

I took my crappy medical coverage to my doc and discussed all this. I really like my doc- but shes in the sick biz- not the well biz. So my "well check up" soup to nuts- after a 30$ co pay and a gillion tests to find out Im a very young and healthy 40 year old still cost me well over 200$ in the portion coverage wouldnt cover.

I asked tons of work out questions and voiced my concerns over certain aches and pains that come from working out. She encouraged me to keep working out- she said its rare to have patients that even try to be healthy. Sad but true.

After that bill came- I vowed to never go to the doc again. Something I semi- vowed years ago, but figured I should have the old "40,000 mile check up" Yea well- its too pricey to be healthy and I got NO info that helped me in my fitness quests. I now pray I dont hurt myself or get sick since I cant friggin afford it.

My next investment in my health is a personal trainer. I hope I can find someone who works with ppl over 40 that are serious about lifting and can guide me thru my trials and set backs.

Good luck to you!

Yeah, crappy insurance sucks. We have a $10,000 deductible with only one wellness visit a year covered and a few other incidentals so any tests above-and-beyond what is considered normal, preventative would be out-of-pocket. I fear the bill more than I fear the muscle soreness/fatigue. And, yeah, I'm always hyper-vigilant when exercising, riding my bike, driving, hiking...all the time, really...because the prospect of paying for an injury spooks my wallet, big time.

I really like my doctor and find him good to work with but, overall, I have a pretty negative impression of the medical profession due to past experiences. Lots of long stories, not worth detailing here. So that, combined with the costs, makes seeking medical help the last resort for me.

funkycamper

I hope I've responded to everyone. Thanks for all the tips. It gives me some things to research and consider. If anybody has an idea not yet mentioned, please speak up.

nguk123

This is an interesting thread!

I'd like to know more about you leg routine(for example)
When you hitting legs twice a week, how many exercised x how many sets x reps would you typically do?

funkycamper

This is an interesting thread!

I'd like to know more about you leg routine(for example)
When you hitting legs twice a week, how many exercised x how many sets x reps would you typically do?

I plan on switching to Stronglifts 5x5 in a week or so. Just need to firm up which trainer I'm going to hire for a couple of sessions to ensure my form is good. A bit nervous but I think my overall fitness and strength is good enough to handle it now. Have been rehabbing from a back injury so have been needing to strengthen core and back and work on balance issues before switching to free weights. At least, I felt the need to do it that way as I never want to endure an injury like that again. Anyway, just saying that because I've been doing the machines and I know they're not the best way to do weight-training.

Anyway, I usually do the following:
* Warm up with 10 minutes on the rowing machine
* Start with the ab and back machines before moving onto legs
* Leg press, calf raises on leg press, leg extensions, leg curls (all on machines). The only time I do it out of this order is if a machine isn't available right when I want it. I usually am able to hit the gym when it's not very busy so I normally don't have a problem doing it in this order.
* A standing machine where I do the following: adductors, abductors, glutes, hip flexors
* Usually end with 10 minutes of HIIT. Usually 5 minutes on the elliptical where I vary the resistance and the...oh, what's it called?...where you change the distance that the steps go up and down. 30 seconds high-intensity/60 seconds recovery. Then I usually end with 5 minutes on the exercise bike, keeping it at about 8 for resistance and then pedaling as fast as possible for 30 seconds, 60 seconds recovery pedaling.
* Cool down - usually 5 minutes walking on the treadmill
* Stretching - I stretch the muscles I used on each machine immediately after using the machine because I just plain think it feels good and helps me do the next machine better by loosening up those tanked muscles before I move on. So my stretching at the end is usually only about 6-8 minutes long. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to increase this but I really feel that I'm well stretched out by the time I'm done.

As for weights lifted: I start with 12 reps at a weight about 50% from my working weight. I then set it at the weight I'm working at and do as many reps as I can up to a total of 8 reps. If I can only do 5 reps, for example, I drop the weight 5# and then complete my 8 reps at that weight. Once I can do 8 reps at that weight, I move the weight up 5# and use that as a starting point for my next session. I then go to a weight at about 70% of my working weight and try to do 12 reps. Sometimes I can do all 12 reps at that weight but, if I'm really gassed, I sometimes need to move it down 5# at some point to complete the 12 reps. Then I stretch and move onto the next machine.

Hope that makes sense. I know it's not a typical style of weight-training but it seems to be working for me. I rarely have a session where I don't increase my reps at my top weight like from doing 4 reps at max weight to 6 reps, then the next session can maybe go 7 reps, then 8, or increase to the next weight level.

It will be interesting to see how I do when I switch to SL 5x5 because that is going to be so different. I just hope it doesn't increase my soreness/fatigue issues. I'm anticipating only doing it twice a week instead of the recommended three times each week so I can do my other stuff (bootcamp, spinnning, kickboxing, running, cycling, hiking, whatever) in-between weight sessions. Just to be clear, I don't necessarily do all of those every week. Some weeks I might run once, spin once, bootcamp once. Some weeks I might cycle outside twice, and run once. Whatever. It varies. And once in awhile I might skip one of those more cardio-style workouts and do sprints at the track and then run up/down the bleachers for stairs for a more HIIT-style workout. I guess you could say most of my runs are HIIT to an extent because my regular running route is on a hill and I do it a bit fartlek-style. It's just more fun that way. And some weeks I might just do a couple long hikes and not really do much other cardio at all that week. Or do virtually nothing else during the week but walk my old dog (very slowly) because I feel like I need a recovery week. Once in a awhile, I swim laps. In the summer, I do less of the other stuff as I enjoy going for long bike rides when the weather is good (30, 40, 50 miles at least once a week with shorter rides during the week). My workouts really vary.

Oh, should note that, at present, I really only do weights for my legs once a week as I believe all the other stuff is giving my legs plenty of exercise. I then do a day of upper-body at another time. If I feel like doing an extra weight-training workout during the week, it's usually a second day of upper-body.

Wow, didn't mean to go on so long but trying to give a complete and probably somewhat confusing picture. If you see anything that I should be aware of that I'm doing wrong, please let me know.