Dairy unhealthy? dairy/almond/rice or soy?

CoderGal

I'm asking the age old question, why is dairy unhealthy? (It's a long post, if you don't feel like reading it all, read the dairy section)

Dairy:

First off I'd like to say I live in Canada. There are no growth hormones or antibiotics in my milk. Also, if cows get breast infections (mastitis)/pusy, they are not aloud to be milked, so I'm free of puss too. As for people concerned with cow hormones, What about plant hormones? Yep, plants have hormones to. What makes them ok? Like most people, I have no lactose intolerance. If I was, it wouldn't really matter since I can still drink whey isolate like some of my lactose intolerant friends. I also love how milk has 'complete' proteins...and has many of the things needed to absorb things such as calcium. Speaking of dairy, I can't think of anything that's more bio-available/easily absorbed into to the human body. It is also high in protein compared to most alternatives, which for me is fantastic (the recommendations on mfp is based on the RDI which is suppose to be minimum protein to avoid deficiency, so this is incredibly low for most people).

Many say other animals won't drink milk...but anyone with eyeballs can figure out that there has been endless recordings of animals (including wild ones) who will absolutely drink milk when given the opportunity (see youtube videos of wild animals and pets happily lapping milk). Not to mention those wild animals who are given milk when they are sick to nurse them back to health. In fact I had the pleasure of feeding a wild moose milk. He loved it! And I can't just cut out nutrients because people don't think other animals are doing it. The saying "cows milk is for baby cows" make me laugh in a way that "bananas are for monkeys" (thanks taso). We do lots of things animals don't and do do, that doesn't necessarily make them good/bad. That is why that argument doesn't make sense. Also, many animals don't drink almond milk in the wild, or other forms of calcium either. Many animals (like my lizard) will eat bones, I prefer not to. So knowing that there is no good or bad food and that a healthy food really depends on the rest of your diet, what makes dairy unhealthy for everyone?

Goats Milk
My aunt always gives mom hers. God I hate that stuff....and that's about all I know about it, sorry lol. You are free to enjoy it as far as I'm concerned. I've been against it since that baby goat I hugged peed on me...

Almond
Some of you recommend switching to bought almond milk. I've tried about 5 different brands and I have to say I get in the mood for it occasionally. But this isn't the greatest idea for people who were getting a large portion of their protein from milk. And some people are allergic to nuts. Some people don't like drinking this because the processed almonds can contain a naturally occurring form of cyanide...but who am I to say anything, I'll eat apple seeds, they're delicious. Some who suggest almond milk do it because milk is 'processed'. Last I checked Almonds aren't very liquid-e...it's processed. As explained in the 'another thought about milk' thread, almond milk usually (I haven't found any that do not yet) contains Carrageenan:

Dr. Blaylock says about carrageenan (Health and Nutrition Secrets That Can Save Your Life; pg. 196):

"Carrageenan is a rather new additive. It is a complex polysaccharide extract made from seaweed, and is used as a binding agent. Experimentally, carrageenan is used as an agent to induce intense inflammation in experimental animals. A recent study found that when carrageenan was injected in animals along with a cancer-causing chemical, tumors appeared more rapidly and in significantly higher numbers than in control animals injected with carcinogen alone. The same was seen when human breast cancers were implanted in animals along with carrageenan: the combination made the tumors grow faster and spread more widely than in control animals. As a result, carrageenan is classified as a tumor promoter.

It seems like almond milk gets a boost in popularity because of the fear of lack of calcium in one's diet when this has little calories but still has calcium...But there's so many reasons a person can be deficient in calcium not necessarily because they're not getting enough in their diet, but because they're not absorbing it. "Availability of Calcium for absorption depends on many dietary factors including the presence of Phosphate, Oxalates, Fats and Phytates which bind Calcium and render it less available for absorption. Calcium in the form of milk or diary products is generally freely bio-available" - http://www.arthritis.co.za/calcium.htm

Rice
So then some of you will recommend rice milk, which contains very few nutrients compared to that of dairy (this is really easy to Google, so I'm not going to bother posting links). Of the many calcium drink internet links I looked up, and on personal experience, most prefer not to drink something that tastes like liquid rice. Though there is a brand of almond milk I have had (I think it's earth's own) that kind of tastes almondy but with more starch which I kind of liked which has rice milk added to it. I don't think anyone can argue rice milk is the way to go, unless they have intolerance or get excess of the other stuff.

Soy
So then some of you will recommend soy, which contains many nutrients. But some of these nutrients are fortified and not as easily absorbed. Take for example calcium (why a lot of people are drinking these beverages in the first place). "A variety of calcium-fortified nondairy beverages are now available. However, the bioavailability of calcium in these beverages may differ from that of milk. A study of calcium-fortified soy milk found that the calcium in it was absorbed at only 75% of the efficiency of the calcium in cow’s milk." - http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2819007.html

Since there's a billion things soy is added to in grocery stores and it's hard to stay away from (even things that are minimally processed), I prefer to not add more to my diet. It tastes nasty according to many people/internet links and me (I kind of like it in coffee though), and you probably get more then enough of it in your diet. It's in everything these days to the point it's hard to avoid, even in minimally processed food. As for processed, try to find a regular loaf of bread in a grocery store that doesn't contain it. I'll be impressed. It's in things such as breads, crackers, cakes, rolls, or pastries containing peanuts, peanut oil, soy flour, processed and "natural" cereals, pasta, soy beans, soybean sprouts, sauces, fruit drink mixes, fruit toppings, coffee substitutes instant coffee, hot cocoa mixes, malt beverages, pork link sausage, deli/luncheon meats, commercially prepared meats (used as a meat extender), cheese substitutes, tofu, bean curd, natto, miso, textured vegetable protein, canned soups, commercial entrees, and combination foods, baked goods, such as cakes or cookies which contain soy flour, commercial ice creams and other frozen desserts, hard candies, nut candies, fudge, caramels, protein powders (even ones that are not soy protein based), margarine and butter substitutes, salad dressings, mayonnaise, sauces, gravies, commercial vegetarian products and meat substitutes Heinz® Worcestershire sauce, Lea & Perrins® sauce, fermented soybean pastes (miso and natto), soy sauce, tamari sauce, granola, breakfast bars, Imitation bacon bits, Roasted soybeans or "soy nuts"...

http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/allergy/soy.html - Children's Hospital at Standford

There are many nutrients in soy that are wonderful, but it's added to so many of our foods these days, one hardly needs it added to their diet to get enough: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/consumer-centre/food-safety-tips/labelling-food-packaging-and-storage/soy/eng/1332437930120/1332437995901 It's to the point that it's a big deal to not have soy in your food, so they put a big bold label on the front.

Still feel like like excessive soy is good? watch and learn....and read...

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIn2L90wA8&amp;feature=player_embedded <-worth watching

reads:
Soy and the Thyroid (hormonal problems): http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm

Thyroid/Cancer/Soy: http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/kdaniel/2012/02/02/thyroid-cancer-on-the-rise-is-soy-a-cause/

Pro Soy Cancer Doctor is even frightened by the facts: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/01/02/tofu.aspx

Study: soys link to cognitive impairment and brain atrophy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10763906?dopt=Abstract

Soy info, Brain Damage and breast cancer: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/18/soy-can-damage-your-health.aspx

How to prevent thyroid disease: http://www.ehow.com/how_5678448_prevent-thyroid-disease.html

I know some of these aren't the most ideal links but that's what I got from a quick Google. There are many more that I have seen that I do not have on hand. Several include the disadvantages of drinking it if you are male. There are also many books out there talking about the negative affects of soy. So until it's cut out of everything that doesn't need it in grocery stores, I'm going to avoid adding more to my diet. And before people think I'm fear mongering, I do drink and eat soy. Even tofu at times. And there are different types of soy. Not all of them have been proven bad (which you'll get if you read the links and video).

So why does dairy get a worse rep health wise then the rest? I prefer to have a little of everything...but to be honest my regular choice for the many reasons I have listed is dairy. Also, plain Greek yogurt is da domb.

harlanJEN

IF I have milk ..it's cow. I don't drink much ..it's rare. Just don't like milk.

A goat has never peed on me ..but... NO.

I do eat Greek yogurt ( Fage is my commercial fave) and cottage cheese. if can obtain from a local organic dairy ....that is FAB

I will always say NO to soy. Almond, Rice or any other "milk" ...NO.

Firefox7275

When someone comes up with a practical natural alternative to dairy I might consider switching, but whilst the options are modern frankenfoods or ridiculous quantities of green veg (~700g kale, ~750g spinach) and nuts/ seeds (~400g almonds of ground flax) I will pass. Pretty sure my north European ancestors evolved eating more dairy than fortified almond 'milk', fortified rice 'milk' or soy products and I draw the line at chowing down on a juicy bone.

DebraYvonne

I drink what I want and its usually almond milk but I have dairy half n half and drink milk if I want it. I don't argue about people's personal choices. I do my research and drink what I like. To each his own!

marthathebear

As long as dairy fits into my daily goal for fats, calories, etc. I drink or eat what I want. Everyone seems to have their own opinion on this but it works for me! I love cow milk, half and half, soy milk, almond milk, ice cream, whipped cream, whatever. If I want it I work it in to my menu.

SpecialSundae

I never thought that dairy had a bad rep. Perhaps it's a North American thing?

I cant have a lot of dairy as it disagrees with me, so at home I use hazelnut milk in coffee (much tastier than almond) and soy milk in cooking.

As an aside, you can make almond milk at home. I have a recipe from a Mediaeval cookbook. :-)

CoderGal

I never thought that dairy had a bad rep. Perhaps it's a North American thing?

I cant have a lot of dairy as it disagrees with me, so at home I use hazelnut milk in coffee (much tastier than almond) and soy milk in cooking.

As an aside, you can make almond milk at home. I have a recipe from a Mediaeval cookbook. :-)

where on earth do you get hazelnut milk?!

SpecialSundae

I never thought that dairy had a bad rep. Perhaps it's a North American thing?

I cant have a lot of dairy as it disagrees with me, so at home I use hazelnut milk in coffee (much tastier than almond) and soy milk in cooking.

As an aside, you can make almond milk at home. I have a recipe from a Mediaeval cookbook. :-)

where on earth do you get hazelnut milk?!

I get it in Tesco (UK).

TheRealParisLove

Many people drink soy milk, but because it is made up of GMO soy, is processed beyond anything natural and is high in omega-6 fatty acids (think the cousin to trans fats. Really bad for heart health), I would not recommend using it.

Coconut milk, cow's milk, goat's milk should all be fine. I don't know anything about almond milk, but rice milk is mostly made from soy, too.

cwolfman13

My take has always been and continues to be that dairy is fine unless you have an allergy to it. I'd never meet my protein goals without my greek yogurt.

SpecialSundae

...rice milk is mostly made from soy, too.

I've never heard that. Where did that tidbit come from? All the brands I know are soy free.

khackey

I guess your fundamental question is "So why does dairy get a worse rep health wise then the rest?" and to that I'd probably suggest that it might be the circles you travel in. While I've heard all the references you've cited, well maybe not your aunt's goatmilk, in my circles the most evil 'milk' these days is soy - I don't believe this personally but for many it's the root of all evil these days and I think that's mostly cause I tend to end up in vegan'ish/hippy'ish areas of the internet given my surfing habits (not that I'm a vegan or hippy).

I think it varies widely based on each individual and their taste, I don't think dairy is evil but for someone lactose intolerant it is and otherwise I do believe certain mass produced varieties (even in Canada) are sub-optimal regardless of what they're 'allowed' to do. Personally I've seen some positive benefits to significantly cutting down on cow milk over the past year, although I argued against it for years I do have to admit my asthma and sinuses are much more clear now and honestly I don't miss it. I've substituted soy and almond as personally I don't like rice and after discussions with my naturopath about my 20+ year reliance on soy (I don't eat 'meat'), my family history and bloodwork analysis I determined I don't have any soy or nut issues so these choices work for me. That said, I don't launch into rants about cow milk and on a recent business trip my only choice was often cow milk latte and it was a nice treat although I find I actually prefer soy latte now. I've just personally found that reducing my intake of cow milk and increasing my intake of soy and almond works for me right now.

I think getting caught up in what's 'best' is a fool's game, ideally you should be discussing this with someone like a naturopath (I tried unsuccessfully with traditional medical community and here in Canada we have more regulations for who calls themselves naturopath) to find your specific need. If you don't have the money or time for this at least be cognizant of the possibility of your 'circle' having a confirmation bias and also dig deeper with scary sounding studies, in one case a very scary study I read about soy and cancer turned out to be a somewhat flawed article about the study as the study used rodents that were pre-disposed to cancerous tumors ergo it would have be rare for them not to get a tumor. That's not to say the study was a lie or false, the study was actually aimed at studying people pre-disposed to genetic cancer but since I don't have this issue the study wasn't as relevant to me but of course the splashy headline didn't highlight this and it took a few layers of reference research to figure this out. Personally I didn't mind doing the research as I learned alot in general but most people don't have the interest or time to dig ergo they unintentionally propogate somewhat flawed information which confuses us all.

Firefox7275

I never thought that dairy had a bad rep. Perhaps it's a North American thing?

I cant have a lot of dairy as it disagrees with me, so at home I use hazelnut milk in coffee (much tastier than almond) and soy milk in cooking.

As an aside, you can make almond milk at home. I have a recipe from a Mediaeval cookbook. :-)

You can make your own almond milk and it might make a good substitute taste wise but nutritionally it is no substitute - precious little calcium or vitamin D you need a fortified product for that.

kwseneca

First of all, dairy is a naturally occuring substance. You don't naturally get "soy milk"; it is processed and produced.
Milk is healthy! It is naturally sweet, vitamin rich, and cheap.
Skim milk is great because you get all the vitamins for a little bit of calories.

Also, soy has been proven to cause hormonal changes in both men and women. If men drink too much soy they can develop BREASTS. http://www.altmd.com/Specialists/BodyLogicMD/Blog/Men-Who-Drink-Soy-Milk-are-at-Greater-Risk-of-Deve

How gross is that?
Dairy is great. Drink it. Eat it. All this paleo crap is stupid! Dairy is healthy in moderation!
I am a big dairy advocate. My whole life has revolved around tasting dairy for contests, learning all about it, and I cannot stress how good it is enough!

knk1553

I don't like milk, but I don't like my protein shakes with water, so I drink Almond Milk with them. I prefer how it feels "lighter" and I think it mixes better with the protein powder, but thats just personal preference. I do eat greek yogurt, cottage cheese, regular cheese, basically a lot of dairy products. I honestly don't have anything against milk, except for I don't like it. If it fits into your macros/calories why not have it? I have ice cream, cookies, cake, etc because it fits into my macros and I've been perfectly fine on my fitness journey.

kwseneca

Also, Cow's milk is PROVEN to help in building lean muscle and losing weight!
Drink yo' milk!

knk1553

Also, soy has been proven to cause hormonal changes in both men and women. If men drink too much soy they can develop BREASTS. http://www.altmd.com/Specialists/BodyLogicMD/Blog/Men-Who-Drink-Soy-Milk-are-at-Greater-Risk-of-Deve

Well maybe I should switch to Soy Milk, I've always wanted bigger boobs.

mmapags

Bump to read later.

SRH7

Also, Cow's milk is PROVEN to help in building lean muscle and losing weight!
Drink yo' milk!

Milk also came out as the best post-workout recovery drink for preventing muscle soreness the next day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00p293l

I don't have an intolerance to dairy and good old-fashioned milk is cheaper than all the alternatives (which taste fine with cereal but horrible in a nice cup of tea) so it is my choice every time.

SRH7

Also, soy has been proven to cause hormonal changes in both men and women. If men drink too much soy they can develop BREASTS. http://www.altmd.com/Specialists/BodyLogicMD/Blog/Men-Who-Drink-Soy-Milk-are-at-Greater-Risk-of-Deve

Well maybe I should switch to Soy Milk, I've always wanted bigger boobs.

Faye_Anderson

I haven't purposely cut out cows milk, it just sort of happened, I was looking to lower my sodium intake and unsweetened soya was the answer, I quite like the taste, and contrary to other posts my boobs are actually shrinking as I lose weight (I must be doing it wrong :grumble: )

KenosFeoh

I don't like milk so avoid it (though like yogurt and cheese), but I've read that people who include lowfat and nonfat dairy products in their diets lose more weight than test groups with similar calorie counts and similar exercise habits.

Of the alternatives, I like almond milk and almond cheese the best.

CoderGal

Also, soy has been proven to cause hormonal changes in both men and women. If men drink too much soy they can develop BREASTS. http://www.altmd.com/Specialists/BodyLogicMD/Blog/Men-Who-Drink-Soy-Milk-are-at-Greater-Risk-of-Deve

Well maybe I should switch to Soy Milk, I've always wanted bigger boobs.

You're on your own. While I'm not that big, I have a small rib cage, so at 28DD, I can hardly find a bra as is.

I don't like milk so avoid it (though like yogurt and cheese), but I've read that people who include lowfat and nonfat dairy products in their diets lose more weight than test groups with similar calorie counts and similar exercise habits.

Of the alternatives, I like almond milk and almond cheese the best.

I'm not convinced by what you heard. That may have something to do with....a million variable things. For example, you will lose more weight eating similar calorie counts if you are of a higher muscle mass (higher resting metabolic rate), have a higher water content to sweat off, are a higher weight, sleep less, move more, engage more muscles while exercising or throughout the day, etc etc etc. Me and twin me could run a km and I could burn more just by trying to run faster, or run farther, or try to exert myself in every way. The calories you burn depend on your energy expenditure. If someone sits around tapping their foot or twitching they'll burn more then if they don't. Same goes with what if one person has a more sedentary job etc. Those tests you speak of would be pretty much impossible to perform accurately with just same calorie counts and exercise habits.

Not to mention that I'm a pretty slim girl who regularly goes over her fat daily.

CoderGal

I haven't purposely cut out cows milk, it just sort of happened, I was looking to lower my sodium intake and unsweetened soya was the answer, I quite like the taste, and contrary to other posts my boobs are actually shrinking as I lose weight (I must be doing it wrong :grumble: )

Fair enough. I was trying to do that also because I was having FAR to much...so I'll point this out since I know a few friends who ran into troubles because of it, remember you do need sodium in your diet (especially certain folks with thyroid problems). In my mind I'd rather avoid things that have salt as an additive if I can and I can eat the fresh version before it goes bad. I'm the kind of girl who well add celery to soup instead of table salt because of it's naturally occurring salt. I try to choose my milk and strawberries over my chocolate and chips now. And remember if you end up cutting out a large portion of a macro-nutrient from cutting out a food, make sure it gets replaced by something.else.

linsey0689

Okay so a big thing when you change from regular milk to any other type of "milk" that you will not get you calcium. There fore as a nursing student a lot of my patient will drink lactose-free (the sugar in milk) free. It still has calcium and is real milk but does cut back on the sugar and calories more times then not but depends on the brand you buy. It really does not taste bad to me but is a bit more money. Give it a try if you like, only buy 1 because it does taste a bit different than other milks.

Best of luck to you!

dragonfly_em

interesting thanks!

Hbazzell

I like almond milk the most. Rice second. Soy is ok but I dont drink it because I eat other soy products and take birth control Dont wanna over do it with estrogen. I dont drink milk because bad things happen inside of me if i drink it. Same with ice cream but i cheat soemtimes. Cheese doesnt seem to bother me though.

atrebor18

I LOVE milk but now that I'm focusing on eating healthier I'm trying to cut back to one cup every other day. I use to drink giant cups of 2% for breakfast and dinner. Its so good! I use almond milk now in my smoothies and I'm trying to get my bf to switch to it for his cereal as well. I'm also not a big fan of soy so I stay away from soy milk. I've heard a lot of great things about goat milk but I can't afford it. Thanks for all that info!

redraidergirl2009

You do not need the dairy from cows. It would be more natural to drink human dairy, of course who does that besides babies?

You can buy gmo-free nut milks which also lack the hormones, pus, blood, antibiotics and other chemicals found in dairy, you can also purchase gmo-free, organic nut milks. Most nut milks have more calcium than dairy milk per serving, so even if it's not absorbed as well, which I still question that "fact", there is more therefore you'd probably get about the same amount from it as you would dairy milk. The majority of the world's population cannot properly digest milk outside of infancy so your own body is telling you that you shouldn't be having it in adulthood.

ldrosophila

MMMMMM milk the joy of being an ominivore with northen european ancestry so wonderful full of calcium and nutrients not to mention the benefits of buytric acid! Here's to being able to digest lactose!

mmapags

MMMMMM milk the joy of being an ominivore with northen european ancestry so wonderful full of calcium and nutrients not to mention the benefits of buytric acid! Here's to being able to digest lactose!

Not to mention IGF-1!