Is calory theory a load of tosh, or is my BMR wrong?

366to266

I input all my food and exercise into fatsecret, which does all the calculations (like fitday etc).

It worked out that I use over 4,000 calories a day just being alive. Add to that my one hour of water aerobics every other day and some desk work and walking about and I need 5,000 calories on average per day to maintain my weight. I eat 1,500 calories a day, so I am running a deficit of 3,500 calories a day.

According to calorie theory, every 3,500 calory deficit equals one pound of bodyfat lost. Therefore, if calory theory is true, I should be losing a pound a day/7lb a week and 30lb a month. But I am not.

Is calory theory a load of tosh, or is my BMR wrong?

MY STATS

Height 5ft 4
weight 352 lb
age 54
sedentary

Maybe should find some more online BMR calculators?

Chief_Rocka

Is calory theory a load of tosh, or is my BMR wrong?

both

taso42

Dave Tate cuts on 4k+ calories per day

DrMAvDPhD

There is a chance that you have slowed your metabolism by chronically under-eating. 1500 cal/day is not enough for you.

stumblinthrulife

Here's at least one tool that says your calculated BMR is wrong -

http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bmr/

366to266

The one you recommend says

Activity Level Daily Calories
Sedentary (little or no exercise, desk job) 2158
Lightly Active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/wk) 2472
Moderately Active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/wk) 2787
Very Active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/wk) 3102
Extremely Active (hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training, i.e marathon, contest etc.) 3416

auroranflash

http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bmr <-- this is the one I reference the most since the number it spat out for me seems to be accurate, but you may have to play with the amounts and see for yourself. When you have a lot to lose, you can typically stand to be on more of a deficit, whereas if you have 5-10lbs to drop, your deficit needs to be more slight and it will take longer to accomplish.

Best of luck.

366to266

Thanks everyone.

I want to keep calories low because I want to lose as fast as possible, at least the first three or four stone. I can barely walk, my life is a misery.

"Sedentary (little or no exercise, desk job) 2158 "

If I maintain in 2158 then how is 1500 too low? So low that I will mess up my metabolism? Any more and there will be barely any deficit. I want to lose at least 2lb a week and that according to calorie theory means a deficit of 1,000 calories a day.

So if my "Sedentary" number is 2158 I should be eating 1,000 a day less which is only 1,100.

twinketta

Hi, welcome to MFP. It is great that you are wanting to get to a healthy weight and feel good about yourself.

How long have you been eating at a deficit?

Things won`t happen over night. It takes a little time to find what works for you.

Thanks for giving us your stats.

Are you keeping your diary?

What has made you want to change and how are you changing your dietary habits?

pastryari

Thanks everyone.

I want to keep calories low because I want to lose as fast as possible, at least the first three or four stone. I can barely walk, my life is a misery.

\

You didn't gain the weight overnight, you're not going to lose it overnight. Slow and steady wins the race. Be safe and good luck.

366to266

Hi, welcome to MFP. It is great that you are wanting to get to a healthy weight and feel good about yourself.

How long have you been eating at a deficit?

Things won`t happen over night. It takes a little time to find what works for you.

Thanks for giving us your stats.

Are you keeping your diary?

What has made you want to change and how are you changing your dietary habits?

Since 2nd Jan
Yes, on fatsecret
I can't walk, I can't fit in seats in planes, theatres or cinemas and I struggle to get upstairs. Life is miserable!
I changed by going low carb and counting calories and carbs, and doing one hour of water aerobics 3 x weekly (I started going daily but I was too sore and strained too many muscles).

Chief_Rocka

Thanks everyone.

I want to keep calories low because I want to lose as fast as possible, at least the first three or four stone. I can barely walk, my life is a misery.

"Sedentary (little or no exercise, desk job) 2158 "

If I maintain in 2158 then how is 1500 too low? So low that I will mess up my metabolism? Any more and there will be barely any deficit. I want to lose at least 2lb a week and that according to calorie theory means a deficit of 1,000 calories a day.

So if my "Sedentary" number is 2158 I should be eating 1,000 a day less which is only 1,100.

You can tolerate a large deficit at your current size, but that won't be the case forever.

twinketta

Just a little tip...if you go to community in the tab bar..and then search..you can type in something like 100lbs lost.

You will find people that have lost that amount of weight and send a friend request to them with a message and they will I am sure give you some great advice and support....or you can just read the threads that they have added.

I am sure you will do well x

enhance00

There is such a thing as too much deficit. Keep that in mind. Losing weight isn't simply about being in a deficit, it is about finding the right amount, learning your body, and making sure you keep with it.

I used to be close to your weight, though I'm a bit taller. I'm 6'2" and used to weigh a little over 340 lb. I started off eating about 2,500 calories a day to lose weight and averaged 2-3 lb per week in loss most of the time. There was a learning period in there where I lost nothing over the course of a month and a half. And there were times where I averaged high. All in all I lost 95 lb in one year (150 lb in 2 years).

Knowing _about_ where your calorie needs are at is good, but it may take a little experimentation to get it just right. Don't be afraid to up your calories if you aren't losing enough (sometimes things work that way).

babymaddux

Here's at least one tool that says your calculated BMR is wrong -

http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bmr/

thanks for posting that link!

ninerbuff

Your BMR is about 2700. Just eat about 400 calories over it and you should lose weight just fine.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

DeanBurrows

Calculators are pretty poop

There is science behind BMR and therefore TDEE, just some people don't do the research.

Katch-McArdle formula below;

-For Men to calculate BMR = 66 + (13.7 x weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) – (6.8 x age in years)

-For Women to calculate BMR = 655 + (9.6 x weight in kg) + (1.8 x height in cm) – (4.7 x age in years)

...For your weight, 1 kilogram = 2.2 pounds

...For your height, 1 inch = 2.54 cm

Example #1: You are a male, 35 years old, 6 foot tall (182.88 cm), you weigh 200 pounds (91 kg). Your basal metabolic rate (BMR) will be 66 + 1246.7 + 914.4 – 238 = 1989.1 calorie intake per day!

Example #2: You are a female, 35 years old, 5 feet 6 inches tall (170.69 cm), you weigh 132 pounds (60 kg). Your basal metabolic rate (BMR) will be 655 + 576 + 307.24 – 164.5 = 1373.74 calorie intake per day!

Once you know your BMR (basal metabolic rate) then use your daily activity factor to get your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE):

-Sedentary................BMR x 1.2 (little exercise)

-Lightly active...........BMR x 1.375 (light exercise)

-Moderately active.....BMR x 1.55 (moderate exercise)

-Very active.............BMR x 1.725 (hard exercise)

-Extremely active......BMR x 1.9 (hard exercise daily)

For example #1... if you are a moderately active male…your TDEE will be 1989.1 calories times your activity level of 1.55 which equals 3083 calories per day.

For example #2... if you are a moderately active female, your TDEE will be 1373.74 calories times your activity level of 1.55 which equals 2129.30 calories per day.

The Harris-Benedict equation has a separate formula for men and women and is not as accurate as the one shown above.

So with your stats;

BMR = 66 + (2187.4105) + (812.8) – (367.2) = 2699
TDEE x 1.2 = 3238.8 <---- Maintenance

So eat 2738.8 calories a day to safely lose weight.

Alex_is_Hawks

Thanks everyone.

I want to keep calories low because I want to lose as fast as possible, at least the first three or four stone. I can barely walk, my life is a misery.

"Sedentary (little or no exercise, desk job) 2158 "

If I maintain in 2158 then how is 1500 too low? So low that I will mess up my metabolism? Any more and there will be barely any deficit. I want to lose at least 2lb a week and that according to calorie theory means a deficit of 1,000 calories a day.

So if my "Sedentary" number is 2158 I should be eating 1,000 a day less which is only 1,100.

do NOT...i repeat....do NOT get hung up on losing 2 pounds a week.

You won't achieve this. Loss is NOT linear...it does not line up to a cashier aisle everyday and check out it's 2 pounds. Some weeks you won't lose any and then all of the sudden you can't lose enough...

Do not and I repeat do NOT get hung up on the scale, take measurements of yourself, I know it's tough and hard at that weight, trust me, look at my ticker...i KNOW but use a string and measure the string and record it....you WILL see loss in your size even when you do not necessarily lose on the scale.

Again, do NOT get hung up on 2 pounds a week
and
Measure.

Good luck.

366to266

Your BMR is about 2700. Just eat about 400 calories over it and you should lose weight just fine.

I apologise for being incredulous given your impressive sig, but I cannot believe that I could lose weight on over 3,000 calories a day. That is, after all, what got me up to 362 pounds in the first place.

Alex.... sorry, I do know that I cannot control how much weight my body chooses to give up and I am sorry for not making that plain. I meant I would like to lose 100lb in a year, which is about 2lb a week. I appreciate that might mean no wieght loss one week and some loss the next, etc. In fact that is exactly what happened to me in the last two weeks (zero loss one week, then 8lb lost last week).

Not sure why you say measure with string... and not with a tape measure? Sorry, dumb question?

DeanBurrows

Your BMR is about 2700. Just eat about 400 calories over it and you should lose weight just fine.

I apologise for being incredulous given your impressive sig, but I cannot believe that I could lose weight on over 3,000 calories a day. That is, after all, what got me up to 362 pounds in the first place.

Alex.... sorry, I do know that I cannot control how much weight my body chooses to give up and I am sorry for not making that plain. I meant I would like to lose 100lb in a year, which is about 2lb a week. I appreciate that might mean no wieght loss one week and some loss the next, etc. In fact that is exactly what happened to me in the last two weeks (zero loss one week, then 8lb lost last week).

Not sure why you say measure with string... and not with a tape measure? Sorry, dumb question?

BASICALLY without going into too many details when you don't eat enough, the weight you lose is part fat and part muscle.
When you lose muscle your metabolism slows down and when you workout without eating enough calories your body eats your muscles for the energy first, not the fat.

Its a vicious cycle. this is why starvation diets don't work and anorexics die when they're 23 years old. losing weight properly is a slow process but its infinitely more beneficial for you if you plan on living for a long time

366to266

Thanks for the replies.

Before I started dieting a dietician had me keep a food journal for a week of how much I was eating (without restricting my eating in any way). It showed that I was eating between 2,000 and 3,000 calories a day and exercising one hour a week, and I was gaining the whole time. According to the calculators, I should have been losing the whole time.

I then went on a meat-only zero carb diet for five months, calories were unrestricted and so I stopped counting them. I lost 15lb. Then I got ill and went back to eating carbs and did no exercise. I gained back all of that 15lb. Again I kept a food diary for a week and was eating about 2,000 to 2,500 a day.

I started Atkins in October, 20g carbs a day, did not count calories but I'd guess I was having about 2,500. I lost nothing in 12 weeks of this.

This is why on 2nd Jan I decided to aim for 1,500. (In 21 days I have gone over that on a few days.)

If I increase this to 2,500 to 3,000 I will start gaining again, surely?

SanteMulberry

For the seriously obese, those tables tend to be inaccurate. A better measure is to use body fat calipers (about $20 online). It will tell you how much of your body is lean body mass (the part that takes more calories to maintain) and how much is fat (the part that doesn't take very many calories to maintain).

When I was 50% body fat (morbidly obese) I would often eat 1200 calories a day for months at a time, and would lose maybe a pound or two a month but certainly nothing startling. Because I have arthritis and I believed the "experts' " opinions that "you can not possibly exercise enough to lose weight"---I got very little exercise (and got sicker and sicker). I had the gamut from high blood pressure, borderline Type II diabetes, gouty arthritis and sleep apnea. The blood pressure medication accelerated the muscle loss and fat gain because it was very destructive to my muscles---they hurt all the time in addition to my joints hurting all the time.

Then I got mad at feeling so crummy and I set out to help myself by learning a bit. What I found out was that I could not eat sugar or wheat (both are addictive for me---as they are for many obese folk---but more than that, they messed with my metabolism because they both raise blood sugar and insulin levels precipitously). A number of doctors report that when they put their patients on a lower carbohydrate, no sugar and no wheat diet, that their obese patients' thyroid functions improve. That was exciting for me to learn, as I have had thyroid issues for many years--maybe always--in addition to having had PCOS. Finally, I got clued in to the fact that you must build lean body mass, if you want to speed up your metabolism. I now eat about 1600 calories a day and stay on the lower end of carbs--100 to 200 grams per day--with the higher intake on heavier exercise days. I could eat 2200 calories on my heavier exercise days--although I still have a lot of "wiggle room" in that I am still at 32% body fat so I usually try to stay at 1800 calories even on those days. I know that eventually, as I get closer to my goal weight, I will have to eat back more of my exercise calories and that I will have to exercise a lot more to reduce my body fat to the goal I have set of 25%. I usually keep my protein about what my macros suggest (on my heavier workout days I usually go a bit higher because I am consciously trying to build muscle). One of the body-builder websites that I saw recommended here said that going too high above your protein macro is counter-productive because you are "training your body to burn protein". I also usually go over my fat macros because I am trying to "teach" my body to burn fat rather than protein and carbohydrates.

In the past, I lost a lot of weight on very low carb diets (before I got sick, that is) but I found that they tend to shrink muscle and thus are counter-productive in the long run. Healthy carbohydrates have a "muscle sparing" effect and thus are important for that reason alone (but obese people seem to lack the ability to convert carbohydrates into energy as well as others and must restrict them a bit so that their little insulin engine doesn't just shove those carbohydrates into their fat stores. Restricting carbs also helps to control appetite (because it lowers insulin levels). The reason why you don't want a very low carb approach is that it tends to lower insulin levels too far and insulin is necessary to build muscle. I have added about ten pounds of muscle over the last year and that is likely why I can eat more than I used to even when I take a day where I don't exercise.

Conquering obesity is basically a process of reversing the obesity process. The obesity process usually is composed of eating too many empty calories and then moving less because of the sluggishness that comes from a reluctance to haul around excess baggage and the bio-chemical derangement that results from the eating of sugar (for some folks). By the way, I don't believe anyone who tells me that low-fat is the way to go---I've tried it many times and it simply did not work (in spite of counting calories religiously). I would inevitably fall off the wagon and just start eating whatever, because I was not addressing the real problem of carbs in general and sugar and wheat in particular. This program is easy for me to stay on. In two years, I have never once gone back to eating sugar and wheat or a high carb diet in general--not even tempted to go off the program. I feel great and with the loss of body fat, I have been able to get completely off my blood pressure meds, my sleep apnea has disappeared, my arthritis is much improved and my hormones have straightened out.

366to266

For the seriously obese, those tables tend to be inaccurate. A better measure is to use body fat calipers (about $20 online). It will tell you how much of your body is lean body mass (the part that takes more calories to maintain) and how much is fat (the part that doesn't take very many calories to maintain).

Thank you "around" for your long message, which I will study in depth tomorrow as it;s really late at night and I want to respect it by giving it my full concentration.

In the meantime, just want to respond to this point above -- my b/f has scales that can tell your body fat and they said I was 60% fat, which seems amazing. I'm more than half blubber!

I'd love to be in contact with you, in the hope that you can help me to build an effective diet plan. THANK YOU

SanteMulberry

For the seriously obese, those tables tend to be inaccurate. A better measure is to use body fat calipers (about $20 online). It will tell you how much of your body is lean body mass (the part that takes more calories to maintain) and how much is fat (the part that doesn't take very many calories to maintain).

Thank you "around" for your long message, which I will study in depth tomorrow as it;s really late at night and I want to respect it by giving it my full concentration.

In the meantime, just want to respond to this point above -- my b/f has scales that can tell your body fat and they said I was 60% fat, which seems amazing. I'm more than half blubber!

I'd love to be in contact with you, in the hope that you can help me to build an effective diet plan. THANK YOU

You're very welcome. Feel free to add me as a friend and PM me to get details on what my process has been and a few "tricks" that have proved helpful to me. Just understand that you are not alone and we are here to help.

bearwith

Some of the figures that people enter are not accurate for everyone because it may have had a calculation for their particular body mass.

You are better off adjusting the number to suit your body - it sounds to me that you have good personal instinct so just be sensible and adjust them a bit. You will soon know if you have not got the maths right because you will not lose weight or are losing too much.

gailmelanie

I don't think I can add anything of value to the discussion of BMR and calorie intake for extreme weight loss, but I can support the notion that low (simple) carb, higher protein intake is better to support better health in the long run for many obese people. Your muscles in your legs are already pretty strong having to carry the load they do, but that's why the joints hurt. They weren't designed to do what you're making them do, and all the reasons you cite to change that are all the right reasons. Aside from all of that, this is the most excellent place to get non-judgmental support. I have to say I have nothing but admiration for those of you who have or are trying to literally be half the size you are now. It makes my struggles petty in comparison, but all the more compelling, too, because I never want to be where you are now. Keep going and I will cheer you as you do.

SanteMulberry

I don't think I can add anything of value to the discussion of BMR and calorie intake for extreme weight loss, but I can support the notion that low (simple) carb, higher protein intake is better to support better health in the long run for many obese people. Your muscles in your legs are already pretty strong having to carry the load they do, but that's why the joints hurt. They weren't designed to do what you're making them do, and all the reasons you cite to change that are all the right reasons. Aside from all of that, this is the most excellent place to get non-judgmental support. I have to say I have nothing but admiration for those of you who have or are trying to literally be half the size you are now. It makes my struggles petty in comparison, but all the more compelling, too, because I never want to be where you are now. Keep going and I will cheer you as you do.

Since you are a nurse, you might want to take a look at a book called, "The Fat Switch" by cardiologist/renal researcher, Richard J. Johnson, M.D. He points to the fructose component of sucrose (sucrose--table sugar--is 50% fructose) as the culprit behind Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, gouty arthritis and a host of other serious diseases--among them renal failure.

He names fructose consumption as the "fat switch" and says that it is a normal part of animal bio-chemistry. When animals want to gain fat in preparation for hibernation, they eat as much fructose as they can get their paws on. Black bears gain a lot of body fat in a very short time by gorging on massive quantities of wild blueberries at the end of summer. They then live off of those fat stores all winter. Only problem with it for humans is that we don't hibernate. Experts in the field of fructose research recommend limiting fructose to 25 grams or less a day (about the amount in a couple of fructose-laden vegetables like a serving of carrots or tomatoes and a couple of servings of low-fructose fruit).

My experience has been that as soon as I eliminated sugar and wheat (wheat too is a problem as it contains a fairly high level of fructans that the body easily converts to fructose) my blood pressure started dropping fast---even before I lost much body fat. It also caused me to get an incredible grip on my appetite.

Another point that you might find interesting is that Dr. Johnson has recently been awarded a National Institutes of Health grant to study the renal failure epidemic in sugar cane workers in Central America. What he expects to find is that the combination of dehydration (it is extremely hot work) and the workers' habit of drinking soda pop or sugar-sweetened fruit juice destroys their kidneys because of the excessively high levels of uric acid that are formed by the intake of too much fructose (which is further exacerbated by the dehydration). Since we lack uricase, the only way to rid the body of uric acid is through the kidneys. Uric acid crystals form easily in the kidneys, under the condition of dehydration, and destroy them.

EricCowperthwaite

Well, basically I think it helps to understand that the calorie in/calorie out (CICO) theory of weight gain and weight loss is both right and wrong. Essentially, the basic theory says that if you eat less calories than you burn, you will lose weight and body fat. There is truth to this ... if you use more calories than you consume, that deficit must be made up somehow. There is also falseness to this.

One of the bigger issues in the CICO is that it doesn't account for things like how insulin works within the body, what happens when you become insulin resistant, how the body's metabolism actually uses those calories, etc. BMR is very helpful, but it must be coupled with understanding different sorts of fats, carbs and proteins, how your body uses them, how obesity has impacted your metabolism and so forth. In fact, your body will utilize different sorts of nutrients differently throughout the day, depending on whether you are physically active, sleeping, etc.

While I think you can achieve some weight loss by doing the CICO method, I believe you will be much more successful by understanding how your body works, how carbs and fat are used by the body for energy, and much more.

I would highly recommend reading Gary Taubes book, "Why We Get Fat", as ONE source for this. There are lots of others. And by all means talk with people in the very obese to 100+ lbs of weight loss category. They are going to understand your situation far better than someone like me.

Best of luck!

debdelilah

Thanks everyone.

I want to keep calories low because I want to lose as fast as possible, at least the first three or four stone. I can barely walk, my life is a misery.

"Sedentary (little or no exercise, desk job) 2158 "

If I maintain in 2158 then how is 1500 too low? So low that I will mess up my metabolism? Any more and there will be barely any deficit. I want to lose at least 2lb a week and that according to calorie theory means a deficit of 1,000 calories a day.

So if my "Sedentary" number is 2158 I should be eating 1,000 a day less which is only 1,100.

The fat2fitratio calculator that produced this result gives you recommended calories to eat after you specify both your current weight and your goal weight. It is telling you that you should eat 2158 calories to lose weight, not add an additional deficit. You can see it says your BMR at your current weight is 2233, so even eating at 2158 you are eating a little below your BMR...you don't want to eat way below. You could see a doctor to see about a safe way to introduce exercise - that way you could lose weight safely more quickly, because you'd still be eating at the the safe minimum yet you'd work off more.

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newdaydawning79

On Fat2Fit I'm getting that your BMR is 2705 approximately. Which would mean that 1500 is over 1200 cals/day less than what you need to just survive. For short periods of time that would be okay but your body won't want to sustain that long-term. It's too little.

ETA: The BMR calculator given earlier isn't accurate for me personally. It says my BMR is 1450-ish (don't remember the exact #) with a TDEE (lightly active) of 1930-ish. I'm eating between 1400-1600 cals/day and have lost over 2 lbs/week. With a 300-500 cal/day deficit from TDEE, that wouldn't be feasible. So take everything you've been given and use it to find what works best for YOU. You're on the right path, don't quit!