caloric deficits, surpluses, and building muscles

MireyGal76

Hello all!

I have read a lot on here where people are adamant that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit - its scientifically impossible. I am curious, though, about timeframes.

If you are consistently posting a deficit, then yes it makes sense you'd be in a position that is not conducive to muscle growth... but what if your calories fluctuate.. sone days you're over, some days you're under? What about a week over/week under?

In this over/under situation, would you be in a position to lean out AND build in an apparently simultaneously fashion?

Just curious...

taylorwaylor

Good question! I wanna see the answers..

janeite1990

This is a great question. I'm kind of in this place right now. I want to keep losing a little fat, but I don't have too much left to lose...3 pounds, maybe 5? I do want to add muscle. So, the goals seem in conflict calorie-wise. What are you thinking in answer to your own question?

Sarauk2sf

You can gain muscle doing it that way as you are at a surplus on lifting days, but it is very slow going, especially for women, and does not really leave much room for 'error' and can end up being very ineffective.

DavPul

Sounds like what you are talking about is calorie cycling. It's done. It works. I've tried it. But I find that it's more of a pain in the *kitten* than it's worth. IMO, it limits the upside of both the gains and the cutting while providing marginal results. I usually just pick cutting or gaining and stick it till I reach whatever my current goal is.

But everyone has a different experience. Give it a try and see if it's for you.

Yanicka1

Well there is also body recomp. Where you lose a little fat and gain a little muscle but it work best in the first year of starting strength training.

I just did a bulk. If I gained 2-3 pounds of muscle for my 10 pounds weight gain I will be ecstatic!!!! Building muscle is so hard.

Ecce_Signum

I read a lot about this and ended up on a 12 week deficit (lost 15 1/2lbs fat gained 3 1/2lbs of LBM) and have just started to reverse the losses and gain 12lb of LBM and probably gain a few pounds of fat - will see in another 12 weeks

Martucha123

You can gain muscle doing it that way as you are at a surplus on lifting days, but it is very slow going, especially for women, and does not really leave much room for 'error' and can end up being very ineffective.

this...
you would be basically doing recomposition. You should be able to see changes but it will take much, much longer (think months or even a year). You will probably achieve similar results eating TDEE and lifting

1ConcreteGirl

Here is a study demonstrating moderate caloric intakes (1639 +-155 calories), high protein intake (117 grams +-7 grams) with progressive resistance training where the subjects were only able to preserve their LBM and not gain any more.

Needless to say, even with newbie gains, you won't be putting on significant LBM in the form of muscle at any kind of overall deficit. FYI: Tables 1 and 2 provide the pertinent data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858200/

KBSwinger

I did this for the longest time and still do but for me its called some what of maintenance. My appetite goes up or down so eating less and eating more is normal for me and thus some days its a fat loss day and some days are mass gaining days. This process takes a longer time but in my experience is safer to not gain too much body fat too quickly.

Sarauk2sf

I read a lot about this and ended up on a 12 week deficit (lost 15 1/2lbs fat gained 3 1/2lbs of LBM) and have just started to reverse the losses and gain 12lb of LBM and probably gain a few pounds of fat - will see in another 12 weeks

How did you assess your BF%?

Sarauk2sf

Here is a study demonstrating moderate caloric intakes (1639 +-155 calories), high protein intake (117 grams +-7 grams) with progressive resistance training where the subjects were only able to preserve their LBM and not gain any more.

Needless to say, even with newbie gains, you won't be putting on significant LBM in the form of muscle at any kind of overall deficit. FYI: Tables 1 and 2 provide the pertinent data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858200/

And very relevant - they were overweight or obese.

SomeoneSomeplace

I don't think it's impossible to tone when you're not eating at a surplus

It was my plan to eat less on rest days and eat around matiance on lifting days.

BUT the issue is even eating matiance on lifting days doesn't seem doable because it kick starts my metabolism like crazy and I find myself very very very hungry and if I don't fuel my body with significant calories before lifting I get REALLY tired and run out of fuel before I get through my circuits.

Then after lifting I could seriously eat a horse. Since I lift at least 3 times a week, with random cardio thrown in occasionally on strength rest days, I've found it difficult to eating at the lower amount that I was before I started lifting. But that's just my experience.

I am a lot hungrier and find I need a lot more to get through a lifting work out than I ever needed to get through a long distance run. Strange I suppose but true.

1ConcreteGirl

Here is a study demonstrating moderate caloric intakes (1639 +-155 calories), high protein intake (117 grams +-7 grams) with progressive resistance training where the subjects were only able to preserve their LBM and not gain any more.

Needless to say, even with newbie gains, you won't be putting on significant LBM in the form of muscle at any kind of overall deficit. FYI: Tables 1 and 2 provide the pertinent data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858200/

And very relevant - they were overweight or obese.

Good point. Nevertheless, this is the only peer-reviewed study that I can find specifically on on this topic.

Shanel0916

bump

Sarauk2sf

Here is a study demonstrating moderate caloric intakes (1639 +-155 calories), high protein intake (117 grams +-7 grams) with progressive resistance training where the subjects were only able to preserve their LBM and not gain any more.

Needless to say, even with newbie gains, you won't be putting on significant LBM in the form of muscle at any kind of overall deficit. FYI: Tables 1 and 2 provide the pertinent data.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858200/

And very relevant - they were overweight or obese.

Good point. Nevertheless, this is the only peer-reviewed study that I can find specifically on on this topic.

I was just clarifying that being overweight./obese means that it is more realistic that you can have some gains as they are one of the exceptions to the 'no gains on a deficit' along with newbie lifters.

There are a bunch of studies out there that show gains on a deficit - but the ones I can recall were on overweight untrained men. For those YMMV.

jesz124

Just poking my head round the door as this is interesting shizzle.

paprikas

I'm trying to get my head around this whole concept... Isn't the aim of this entire exercise to minimize body fat and build muscle which then boosts the metabolism? Can't both be done at the same time? I would have thought that by eating at just under TDEE and lifting weights, you could simultaneously do both... In my case, I have basically stayed the same weight, but my body fat percentage seems to have dropped and I have definitely built muscle tone. Based on my weight alone, I have basically plateaued, but I know that that is not the case. Why does it have to be either losing fat, or building muscle?

AnvilHead

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

MireyGal76

Thank you everyone for your feedback up to this point! There is a lot of interesting info to read and follow up on!

I welcome additional info / dialog too

BusyRaeNOTBusty

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

Damn it. I was going to post those.

shorty35565

I'm still new to all of this, but when I think of it this way it makes sense. When lose fat, it's because you're eating a deficit. You're not giving your body enough energy to do what it needs to do, so it uses the extra fat you have on your body as energy. Now how can one expect to build something when their isn't enough energy that your body has to use your fat to compensate? You need extra energy to build aka a surplus.
That make sense or sound right to those with experience?

haroon_awan

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

Everyone on this website should read Lyle McDonald's articles. OP please read these.

Sarauk2sf

I'm still new to all of this, but when I think of it this way it makes sense. When lose fat, it's because you're eating a deficit. You're not giving your body enough energy to do what it needs to do, so it uses the extra fat you have on your body as energy. Now how can one expect to build something when their isn't enough energy that your body has to use your fat to compensate? You need extra energy to build aka a surplus.
That make sense or sound right to those with experience?

That is the crux of it yes.

Sarauk2sf

I'm trying to get my head around this whole concept... Isn't the aim of this entire exercise to minimize body fat and build muscle which then boosts the metabolism? Can't both be done at the same time? I would have thought that by eating at just under TDEE and lifting weights, you could simultaneously do both... In my case, I have basically stayed the same weight, but my body fat percentage seems to have dropped and I have definitely built muscle tone. Based on my weight alone, I have basically plateaued, but I know that that is not the case. Why does it have to be either losing fat, or building muscle?

When losing fat, the aim is really to preserve muscle. If you read the links, they will explain why, for the most part (with the exeption of a few situations) it cannot be done at the same time.

Also remember, LBM is not only muscle. It is everything that is not fat. You start exercising, you gain glycogen/water in the muscle.

Gallowmere1984

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

Everyone on this website should read Lyle McDonald's articles. OP please read these.

I concur.

NovemberJune

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

Everyone on this website should read Lyle McDonald's articles. OP please read these.

I concur.

Thanks for posting these! I was going to post a topic to ask a related question.... but Search option FTW!

paprikas

So, based on my understanding of these articles, this is what has happened in my case... I started out reducing my cals and doing mainly cardio, and dropped the kilos quite quickly. Then I discovered heavy lifting. Saw an improvement in muscle tone, felt great, reduced inches but the scales basically plateaued. According to my cheapie body analysis scales, body fat percentage dropped significantly. So far so good.
Now I am at the stage where I like lifting, but feel incredibly hungry and am eating at close to maintenance. I still need to lose about 10kg in weight as I am carrying fat on top of the muscle.
So the question is, do I continue heavy lifting (and eating), switch back to cardio which I don't really like that much, or do some kind of combo??

Yeller_Sensation

Here are three articles by somebody who knows a lot about the subject and can explain it better than I can:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

Thank you very much for posting these. I've learned a few new things. :flowerforyou: