Lifting and Running
Replies
-
Thanks for all of the really great advice. I'm running 4 times a week for the first 6 weeks, then it bumps up to 5 times a week for the last 14 weeks of my schedule. That's why I'm lifting just once a week, I need a rest day before my long run, and most of my time for hitting the gym is during my lunch at work. I have a two hour round trip commute, which pretty much kills my day.
I'm also interested in hearing more from runners who lift, than from lifters who run. I can't imagine lifting 3 times a week then going to run an 8 or 10 mile run on the weekend, I feel like that would be way too much strain on my body.
5 x a week? That sounds like a competitive schedule. And if not competing, I'd suggest not necessary at all. It can be accomplished with 3 x a week easy. Shoot, in about 6 weeks if already running!
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales?month=201210
You can fit lifting in for the upper body to help prevent muscle loss there.
Once you go past 60-75 min, even in the best fat-burning endurance bodies, you are going to start breaking down some muscle just to keep blood sugar levels up where the body wants them.
Day after a more gentle run, when you'll do a short one, do the upper lifting. Helps the shoulders make it for a long run too, so you don't lose form and get sloppy.
So.....would taking a Gu like shot during the run, around 65-75 minutes in keep the muscle catabolism from happening at all?0 -
nope! those Gu's are fast digesting, but will probably not help to service you during your training. being glycogen depleted is much like being dehydrated. Once you're there, it's too late.
If you want to ensure glycogen saturation for the duration of a 2+ hour race, this is what will help:
1. eat a baseline carb intake of 400-500 grams of carbohydrate on training days.
2. do this for a long enough time that your muscles start to improve glycogen uptake levels. (usually 2-3 months)
3. 1 day before the race, do not train, but continue to eat 400-500 carbs, ensuring full saturation.
4. day of race, pack Gu
5. 1/2 hour into race, chug Gu.
6. Profit!0 -
I would not want to argue with heybales; he seems pretty experienced. But it seems to me three days a week would not be enough to get ready to run 13 miles in a race -- when people generally end up running a bit faster than they expect in a race because of all the other runners around them.
Also, my wife is training for her second marathon in six months, and she regularly does runs that are longer than 60 minutes. Seems to me, if it were really true that you burn muscle every time you run longer than an hour, she would be losing weight and starting to look emaciated. I don't see that.
The Kenyans are the best runners in the world. They don't have fancy training and they don't lift weights. Heck, most of them don't have weights when they are starting out. They just run hills. Over and over again. And then they do it another time.
I think when they are training they often run twice a day -- and at least one of those runs is longer than an hour. Now, if they were burning up muscle every time they did that, wouldn't they eventually have diminishing returns on their training? If this loss meant anything, or was appreciable, wouldn't they eventually become too weak to run anymore?
They don't eat at a deficit. Simple as that. It's also unused muscle that it happens too. And that can be repaired. When eating enough.
And look at their upper bodies. No muscle where it's not needed for the running.
For competitive runner, that transformation takes place even eating at maintenance, unless they lift upper body to prevent it.
Why wear shoes that are ounces lighter than other shoes, if you carry extra 2 lbs of muscle in upper body not needed?
In fact for training, when it's time to gain muscle in the legs for increasing pace because you've tapped out what you've got, time to eat in surplus while doing sprints. And just like weight lifters, there are times to do it, so that the fat loss can be obtained by race time.
As to running only 3 days a week for half or marathon, you are correct you need more cardio in there, to keep improving that system. Cross-training is way to go.
Again, has to do with deficit, body is under stress with that already, ability to repair well and get full benefit from too much running just won't work well.
1 strong short day for like hill sprints to improve lactic acid removal and raise the LT line. 10 min walk warmup, 40 min sprints, 10 min walk cooldown.
1 med day at race pace, probably Aerobic HR zone. 5 min warmup walk, 50 min run, 5 min cool down walk.
1 long day that just keeps increasing. Probably bottom of Aerobic HR zone. Train the aerobic system for burning fat for endurance.
The kicker is fitting lifting in there too, as mentioned, many good ideas for split upper only routine, or lower 1 day week perhaps, because squats and dead lift are great for many of the muscles.
Meant to add, the muscle burn is small. Muscle provides about 600 calories worth of energy when converted to glucose for keeping the blood sugar raised, so it doesn't take much to supply those needs after 60-75 min.
Also, whatever was left over from previous meal is used first, before the liver stores. That's what gets low, causes low blood sugar, causing that breakdown.
But if intense enough, and doing it long after your last meal and being active inbetween times, you can enhance that burn, and improve the odds of delaying it too.
The real muscle burn is hitting the wall - where you used up the glucose stores in the muscle. Now muscle is being torn down to supply the muscle glucose needs along with burning fat, not just keeping blood sugar at reasonable level.
That's the fun one, that's the one from going out too fast in marathon for your level. Bonking in bicycling, tad easier even because less muscle is used, burns glucose quicker.0 -
intelligent post indeed. though we also have to factor in some other things. you cannot condition the body to favor fat burning while supplying it with ample carbohydrate. As long as you eat carbs, the body will favor carbs as the immediate and pressing energy source.
VO2 max may cause muscle degradation, but VO2 Rest induces way more lipid oxidation. This theory implies that the body favors fat burning at lower intensity cardio levels. Though different genetic advantages sort of throw a wrench in this...so there is need for more study.
The bottom line here is that protein metabolism for energy, whereas the body resorts to muscle breakdown to fuel current processes (running), only occurs after all other options are depleted. In the case of hitting the runner's wall, and your limbs go flimsy and you start staggering...you are 100% glycogen depleted, and fat oxidation has not kept up to meet demands of being hypoglycemic. The proof of this is that most experienced runners have great glycogen uptake and utilization do not hit the wall for a race they have trained for, except for the last "sprint". Those that do hit the wall have overreached their training protocols, and are trying to outperform what their bodies are used to.
From what I understand about long distance runners and swimmers is this. They are "skinny fat" for a reason. They hold higher ratios of fat for a "backup" supply of ketones if they become glycogen depleted. they hold as little muscle (in the form of fast twitch fiber) as possible...as it's not necessary for the nature of their sport. training your legs through weights does very little to aid in endurance. If anything it's only feasible to train them for the last "sprint", where the body will switch from slow twitch to fast twitch to gain an advantage in the last 1/3 mile or so....which is less glycogen dependent.
That being said....marathon runners vary wildly on what they believe is optimal. If you are training 5x a week, and doing long distance each training bout, there is good reason for you to be eating way way way higher than maintenance....in the ballpark of 2000 surplus. I've seen guys train on 1000 surplus and others on 4000 surplus. The most important thing is to ensure full recovery before each training bout, and full glycogen saturation. The more you cram glucose into muscles, the better the muscles are at taking up glucose. The last thing, of course, is altitude and the conditions in which you are training...which has almost a doping-like effect, if you're somewhere like denver or kenya.0 -
I'm training for a half marathon as well and I lift 3 days/week. Thus far, its only done positive things for my running.
Are you doing a full body routine all three days you lift or a split? Do you find you have any crazy leg fatigue?
Sorry, just now seeing this.
I do squats Monday, bench Wednesday, and deadlift on Fridays. I also do coordinating accessory work on all of those days. I run on Thursdays and Saturdays (usually) and take 2 rest days/week. No real issues with leg fatigue. I know it's different for everyone, but for me this has been great. The last time I trained for a half marathon I gained 15lbs (although, wasn't logging food, so there's that) and barely finished. Now - in 2 months - I've shaved nearly 2 minutes off of my average pace and I'm hitting longer distances without issue (5+ miles). Granted, this is just my personal experience, but a couple of months of lifting has helped me make gains that years of running didn't get me.0 -
Lots of great information in here. For the folks who are worried about not lifting enough while training for running and possible muscle loss, I'll share my experience. Of course, only anecdotal and YMMV.
Last summer, I was training to ride in a 200-mile cycling event (100 miles/day). Considering that the previous summer, I was so out-of-shape that riding for 5 miles about did me in, I was having to do some pretty intense training to get to the endurance level needed. While I intended to continue with my lifting program, I found that I just couldn't do it. I didn't have the oomph to lift, too. So, from June-the beginning of Sept., I only lifted maybe 3-4x.
In spite of that, I was pleasantly surprised that, when I returned to regular lifting, I had lost negligible strength. On most lifts, I could either do the same weight but for only a couple of reps before maxing out so it didn't take more than about a week or so to get my reps back up. Or, if I did have to drop the weight lifted, it was only like maybe 5#. Not a big loss and, again, only took a week or two to get back to my May lifting levels.
This may not be the same for runners because cyclists use the upper-body more. Holding your body up over the handle-bars, supporting weight while standing, pulling hard when going up hills, and such. So this may be not be applicable to runners? I don't know. Just thought I'd share anyway.0 -
I would not want to argue with heybales; he seems pretty experienced. But it seems to me three days a week would not be enough to get ready to run 13 miles in a race -- when people generally end up running a bit faster than they expect in a race because of all the other runners around them.
Also, my wife is training for her second marathon in six months, and she regularly does runs that are longer than 60 minutes. Seems to me, if it were really true that you burn muscle every time you run longer than an hour, she would be losing weight and starting to look emaciated. I don't see that.
The Kenyans are the best runners in the world. They don't have fancy training and they don't lift weights. Heck, most of them don't have weights when they are starting out. They just run hills. Over and over again. And then they do it another time.
I think when they are training they often run twice a day -- and at least one of those runs is longer than an hour. Now, if they were burning up muscle every time they did that, wouldn't they eventually have diminishing returns on their training? If this loss meant anything, or was appreciable, wouldn't they eventually become too weak to run anymore?
With all due respect, I ran my last 1/2 Marathon only running 3 days a week. There is other cross training you do throughout the week that helps in other ways. Yes most programs are 4 days but 13 miles is honestly not that great of a distance for some and can be done in 3 days. Now if I was training for a full there would be no way I could do it on 3 days. Please respect those who've found what works for them seeing that they've actually accomplished it and stop trying to argue it. If I wanted advice I'd ask for it but I've found what is right for me. Also not everyone on this site eats in a deficit and when my training is in high gear I actually eat a surplus. Nor does everyone want to run like or have the build of a Kenyan runner.
0 -
Such great (and a bit overwhelming) information here!
I, personally, would like to thank everyone who responded...it's great to hear different ideas/POV/Etc.
There is going to be a lot for me to think about, for sure. For me....as i've stated before, I'm running the half to support my step dad and the only person I feel I need to compete with is myself. Since it's my first (and most likely only) half...I don't have much I have to beat...lol.
I would like to finish and finish strong with a pace I can be proud of0 -
I would not want to argue with heybales; he seems pretty experienced. But it seems to me three days a week would not be enough to get ready to run 13 miles in a race -- when people generally end up running a bit faster than they expect in a race because of all the other runners around them.
Also, my wife is training for her second marathon in six months, and she regularly does runs that are longer than 60 minutes. Seems to me, if it were really true that you burn muscle every time you run longer than an hour, she would be losing weight and starting to look emaciated. I don't see that.
The Kenyans are the best runners in the world. They don't have fancy training and they don't lift weights. Heck, most of them don't have weights when they are starting out. They just run hills. Over and over again. And then they do it another time.
I think when they are training they often run twice a day -- and at least one of those runs is longer than an hour. Now, if they were burning up muscle every time they did that, wouldn't they eventually have diminishing returns on their training? If this loss meant anything, or was appreciable, wouldn't they eventually become too weak to run anymore?
With all due respect, I ran my last 1/2 Marathon only running 3 days a week. There is other cross training you do throughout the week that helps in other ways. Yes most programs are 4 days but 13 miles is honestly not that great of a distance for some and can be done in 3 days. Now if I was training for a full there would be no way I could do it on 3 days. Please respect those who've found what works for them seeing that they've actually accomplished it and stop trying to argue it. If I wanted advice I'd ask for it but I've found what is right for me. Also not everyone on this site eats in a deficit and when my training is in high gear I actually eat a surplus. Nor does everyone want to run like or have the build of a Kenyan runner.
You're only 32 years old. You're just a baby ! Heck, at 32 years, you can do anything, and get up the next morning and do it again.
Seriously, though, I am sorry if I have annoyed you. But, I was just trying to stimulate discussion, as I know that most serious running training programs do not put great emphasis on weight training. I think it has worked.
And, just an FYI, you might want to run like a Kenyan. I have seen the leaders running in serious, big-money marathons, and it is absolutely stunning how big their strides are and how fast they move down the road.0 -
I am late to chime in but this is completely doable. You can easily train for Half on 3-4 days of running per week. If you do three days then your weekly runs will need to be a little longer.
Here is what I will be doing.
Monday - run
Tuesday - CT morning & lif at night
Wednesday - Rest
Thursday -CT morning & lift at night
Friday - Run
Saturday - Long run
Sunday - Yoga & possibly lift.
I will cut back the lifting a few weeks prior to give my muscles time to prepare.0 -
I would not want to argue with heybales; he seems pretty experienced. But it seems to me three days a week would not be enough to get ready to run 13 miles in a race -- when people generally end up running a bit faster than they expect in a race because of all the other runners around them.
Also, my wife is training for her second marathon in six months, and she regularly does runs that are longer than 60 minutes. Seems to me, if it were really true that you burn muscle every time you run longer than an hour, she would be losing weight and starting to look emaciated. I don't see that.
The Kenyans are the best runners in the world. They don't have fancy training and they don't lift weights. Heck, most of them don't have weights when they are starting out. They just run hills. Over and over again. And then they do it another time.
I think when they are training they often run twice a day -- and at least one of those runs is longer than an hour. Now, if they were burning up muscle every time they did that, wouldn't they eventually have diminishing returns on their training? If this loss meant anything, or was appreciable, wouldn't they eventually become too weak to run anymore?
With all due respect, I ran my last 1/2 Marathon only running 3 days a week. There is other cross training you do throughout the week that helps in other ways. Yes most programs are 4 days but 13 miles is honestly not that great of a distance for some and can be done in 3 days. Now if I was training for a full there would be no way I could do it on 3 days. Please respect those who've found what works for them seeing that they've actually accomplished it and stop trying to argue it. If I wanted advice I'd ask for it but I've found what is right for me. Also not everyone on this site eats in a deficit and when my training is in high gear I actually eat a surplus. Nor does everyone want to run like or have the build of a Kenyan runner.
You're only 32 years old. You're just a baby ! Heck, at 32 years, you can do anything, and get up the next morning and do it again.
Seriously, though, I am sorry if I have annoyed you. But, I was just trying to stimulate discussion, as I know that most serious running training programs do not put great emphasis on weight training. I think it has worked.
And, just an FYI, you might want to run like a Kenyan. I have seen the leaders running in serious, big-money marathons, and it is absolutely stunning how big their strides are and how fast they move down the road.
Well you didn't really annoy me until now, but I guess since I'm just a "baby" I should just sit in the corner. Just because your much older than me does not make you more knowledgeable or mature for that matter. I know plenty of people my age, I even have patients my age that act and have the bodies of 50 year olds, so your assumption is wrong. But thanks for the wonderful compliment!0 -
I second this, mostly the first sentence.Quite frankly, you're not going to get great results from one day per week, no matter what you do. However, I would definitely say go full body at every session. Do as much of each compound lift as you possibly can within that day.
this0 -
I've done a 1/2 and preparing for 3 this summer all the while lifting 3x/wk. I do an upper/lower split but cut my lower down to once a week. You can still lift 3 times a week and do your running, you have to find the right balance.
If you don't mind sharing...what does your schedule look like?
Not at all, it's just rather crazy bc of work. I'm a nurse and 1 week I work 60-65 hrs/wk and the next I only have 1 shift so I've structured it based on that.
Heavy Work Week
Su-Upper/Short, easy recovery run
M-Work/Rest
T-Work/Short, easy run (If I'm off at a good time and have energy)
W-Legs/Speed work run 30-40 mins
R-Work/Rest
F-Long Run
S-Work/Easy 1-2 miler after work or walk
Easy Work Week
Su-Work/Rest
M-Upper
T-Mid range Run
W-Legs
R-Upper/Speed Work
F-Work/Rest
S-Long Run
My leg routines differ than most. During race prep I scale back to 60-70% of my max weight and do higher reps. I also add in some plyo work and do more supersets. In the off season I'm back to heavier weights with the 3-5 sets with low rep range. This is what works for me and I have lifted long enough to know how my body responds. The only time lifting has ever effected my running was when I was stupid and cut leg day out 8-10 weeks before my race. It actually hurt me in the long run. I also find those that don't lift when running seem to battle more injuries bc of weak glutes etc. One thing that greatly helps me recover after leg day/run is foam rolling and stretching; very key.
I am kind of meandering back and forth through this thread, but I think you have done a really good job of learning how your body works and responds to training and coming up with a program that not only fits your goals but also your lifestyle.0 -
I give equal priority to running and lifting- I have a condensed full body lifting program that I do 2x a week- but those 2x are pretty hardcore lifting workouts. My more intense running days are always the day before my lifting, and then the day after is a lighter, shorter run or rest day. So basically, my schedule looks like this
Monday- Rehab run
Tues- Shorter run
Wed - Run
Thurs - Lifting
Fri - rest
Sat- Weekly long run
Sun- Lifting
I've been doing this for months, and have been able to progress at both simultaneously, but, fair warning- the gym sessions are INTENSE when you cram it in to 2x a week. Every couple weeks, once a month maybe, I skip a couple of the shorter runs and give myself a couple days off in a row.0 -
I would not want to argue with heybales; he seems pretty experienced. But it seems to me three days a week would not be enough to get ready to run 13 miles in a race -- when people generally end up running a bit faster than they expect in a race because of all the other runners around them.
Also, my wife is training for her second marathon in six months, and she regularly does runs that are longer than 60 minutes. Seems to me, if it were really true that you burn muscle every time you run longer than an hour, she would be losing weight and starting to look emaciated. I don't see that.
The Kenyans are the best runners in the world. They don't have fancy training and they don't lift weights. Heck, most of them don't have weights when they are starting out. They just run hills. Over and over again. And then they do it another time.
I think when they are training they often run twice a day -- and at least one of those runs is longer than an hour. Now, if they were burning up muscle every time they did that, wouldn't they eventually have diminishing returns on their training? If this loss meant anything, or was appreciable, wouldn't they eventually become too weak to run anymore?
With all due respect, I ran my last 1/2 Marathon only running 3 days a week. There is other cross training you do throughout the week that helps in other ways. Yes most programs are 4 days but 13 miles is honestly not that great of a distance for some and can be done in 3 days. Now if I was training for a full there would be no way I could do it on 3 days. Please respect those who've found what works for them seeing that they've actually accomplished it and stop trying to argue it. If I wanted advice I'd ask for it but I've found what is right for me. Also not everyone on this site eats in a deficit and when my training is in high gear I actually eat a surplus. Nor does everyone want to run like or have the build of a Kenyan runner.
If someone is doing enough volume of cardio training, then one can use the running days to just focus on the "running-specific" aspects of training--e.g. long runs and maybe a tempo run. In that case, 3x a week can be quite sufficient.
One strategy is to use the "easy" running days as cross-training days--as a way to give the body a break from the stresses of running, work some "opposite" muscle groups to avoid injury, and still get some cardio training. In fact sometimes it's possible to get even MORE cardio training --e.g. instead of a shorter recovery run, you might actually be able to do more minutes cycling or an elliptical.
Another argument for those trying to maintain muscle mass is that, even given the same volume and intensity of exercise, cycling results in less muscle loss than running. Not all cardio activities are equivalent when it comes to muscle loss (or inhibition of gains).
When I was young-many, many, many, many, many, many years ago---there was a time when it became fashionable for men to wear Greek fisherman caps. Observing this trend, I came to the conclusion that the only men who looked good in Greek fisherman hats were.......Greek fishermen.
I think the same can be said for Kenyan marathon runners.0 -
I gotta say, if someone has a good base already, they might be able to get to 13-mile-race conditioning by running only 3 times a week, but it would be hard.
I still would like to hear from some serious running people about this. I get the feeling that most of the people responding are people who are lifters and exercises, primarily, not runners, and I suspect runners might have slightly different recommendations.
Please, I am not saying strength isn't important. I know a lot of people who run ultra-marathons, or ride the Tour of the California Alps -- Deathride (a 129-mile ride with fearsome climbs). They cross train. But they say they do it because they need strength for what they do, and that cross training allows them to get some work in without more of the same physical stress of their primary activity. But these people have a great cardiovascular base already, and they cross train only about once, maybe twice, a week.
They do not do it because they feel they are losing strength and significant muscle mass if they don't do it !
My real problem with this advice is this: When I lift heavy, my muscles are fatigued (and maybe sore) the next day. I can run, but I cannot run well. I am not making any progress in my running on those days. And so, by my reckoning, if I have two lifting days, when I cannot run because I am two fatigued, and two days after, when I am recovering and cannot really run, that is four days without running. That leaves three days for running -- if I chose not to take a rest day !
Seems like a lot.
Maybe I am just old, and it takes me longer than young people to recover.
I don't know.
The Hal Higdon training programs for running do recommend some cross training. But, I think they recommend one day a week, not more. And, I think their idea of cross training is light weights or an eliptical trainer. It is not heavy lifting.
Sorry to the OP. I fear I have taken this discussion into depth beyond what she wanted or needs.0 -
This is what the Hal Higdon training programs website says on its training-for-a-half-marathon page about cross training:
"Cross-Train: I don't always prescribe cross-training for intermediate runners. That's because you're usually somewhat more focused on pure running than novice runners. But if you find that cross-training helps you prevent injuries, or if you enjoy it, feel free to substitute cross-training on one or more of the easy days. (In this program, that would be Tuesday or Thursday.) Notice I used the word "substitute." Usually it's not a good idea to add cross-training, particularly hard cross-training, to an existing schedule under the mistaken belief that it will make you stronger. It may actually cause you to overtrain, which can have a negative effect on performance, because you never get a chance to rest. What form of cross-training works best? It could be swimming, cycling, walking, cross-country skiing, snowshoeing, or even some combination that could include strength training."
This does not say: 'Oh my GOD ! You must cross train otherwise you are going to lose huge amounts of muscle and become wan and weak, and you'll look like a scarecrow."
I think some of the message here is exaggerated. Sure, if you want to look like you have muscles, running might not be the thing for you. Go to the gym. But, if you want to run, lifting is maybe not necessary, and might even be counter productive if you over do it.0 -
I gotta say, if someone has a good base already, they might be able to get to 13-mile-race conditioning by running only 3 times a week, but it would be hard.
I still would like to hear from some serious running people about this. I get the feeling that most of the people responding are people who are lifters and exercises, primarily, not runners, and I suspect runners might have slightly different recommendations.
Please, I am not saying strength isn't important. I know a lot of people who run ultra-marathons, or ride the Tour of the California Alps -- Deathride (a 129-mile ride with fearsome climbs). They cross train. But they say they do it because they need strength for what they do, and that cross training allows them to get some work in without more of the same physical stress of their primary activity. But these people have a great cardiovascular base already, and they cross train only about once, maybe twice, a week.
They do not do it because they feel they are losing strength and significant muscle mass if they don't do it !
My real problem with this advice is this: When I lift heavy, my muscles are fatigued (and maybe sore) the next day. I can run, but I cannot run well. I am not making any progress in my running on those days. And so, by my reckoning, if I have two lifting days, when I cannot run because I am two fatigued, and two days after, when I am recovering and cannot really run, that is four days without running. That leaves three days for running -- if I chose not to take a rest day !
Seems like a lot.
Maybe I am just old, and it takes me longer than young people to recover.
I don't know.
The Hal Higdon training programs for running do recommend some cross training. But, I think they recommend one day a week, not more. And, I think their idea of cross training is light weights or an eliptical trainer. It is not heavy lifting.
Sorry to the OP. I fear I have taken this discussion into depth beyond what she wanted or needs.
I'm not a world class runner or anything, but I've done enough half marathons to say pretty confidently that you can train for a half and lift. The most important thing for training for a long race is your weekly long run. That has to have highest priority of all your workouts. Like I said in my above post, by condensing your lifting to 2 days a week, you can do both. I'm not doing half- distances now, but all last summer and fall I was clocking weekly 10 milers, I could easily have stretched that to a half. The problem is that if you don't lift often ENOUGH you get terrible DOMS every time- the way to avoid it, counterintuitively, is by lifting more. The day after lifting is a great day to do active rest, a short run, or something like the elliptical for cross training. You're still left with 3 solid running days. Your rest days should pretty much always come the day after lifting.
ETA: But yes, what I'm describing generally would mean you are starting with a fairly solid running base before half training. I don't generally think people should pick up a half training program and expect to be able to diversify if they can't already run a 10k.0 -
If you're doing half marathon, then workout every single part of your body.
But do not do all group of muscles in one day. Set up days where you lift different part of your body. And run your *kitten* off everyday.0 -
I'm bumping this because I stopped training for a half because I couldn't figure out when to lift and when to run.0
-
Thank you, morebean. What you say sounds sensible to me.
I truly do not know how much cross training is the proper amount, and am just trying to bump this thread along to get discussion. And, i am a little worried that running gets a bit of a bad rap. People imply that if you run, and run only, that you will burn up all your muscle and waste away to nothing, and that does not sound credible to me.
Here is what Fitness magazine says about cross training, in its guide for half-marathon preparation:
"Optional Cross-Training -- In between running days, do 20 to 30 minutes of nonimpact cardio (such as cycling, swimming, or using the elliptical) at moderate intensity, or strength-train, focusing on your core and lower body (try push-ups, lunges, and squats)."
That seems to advise a lot less cross training than is being advised here.0 -
Thank you, morebean. What you say sounds sensible to me.
I truly do not know how much cross training is the proper amount, and am just trying to bump this thread along to get discussion. And, i am a little worried that running gets a bit of a bad rap. People imply that if you run, and run only, that you will burn up all your muscle and waste away to nothing, and that does not sound credible to me.
Here is what Fitness magazine says about cross training, in its guide for half-marathon preparation:
"Optional Cross-Training -- In between running days, do 20 to 30 minutes of nonimpact cardio (such as cycling, swimming, or using the elliptical) at moderate intensity, or strength-train, focusing on your core and lower body (try push-ups, lunges, and squats)."
That seems to advise a lot less cross training than is being advised here.
You might get better answers to that question if you start a thread specifically about optimal cross training to supplement a running training program. In this case, the OP indicated that she wanted to lift and asked for advise on how to do it, so that's why the answers are focusing heavily on that.0 -
Thank you, morebean. What you say sounds sensible to me.
I truly do not know how much cross training is the proper amount, and am just trying to bump this thread along to get discussion. And, i am a little worried that running gets a bit of a bad rap. People imply that if you run, and run only, that you will burn up all your muscle and waste away to nothing, and that does not sound credible to me.
Here is what Fitness magazine says about cross training, in its guide for half-marathon preparation:
"Optional Cross-Training -- In between running days, do 20 to 30 minutes of nonimpact cardio (such as cycling, swimming, or using the elliptical) at moderate intensity, or strength-train, focusing on your core and lower body (try push-ups, lunges, and squats)."
That seems to advise a lot less cross training than is being advised here.
There are programs that include strength training of all sorts into preparation of marathon or cycling, at normal and elite levels.
The training I follow recommends 2-3 days of strength training with 3-4 days of running. The triathelete training I'll start later in the year will include at least 2 days strength training. In fact, the best results I have ever seen as a cyclist for myself or my former team mates in college all included cycling specific weight training during the off-season to develop strength, bf% balance and muscle equilibrium. Weight training got a bad rap back then because a body builder is not what you want to be on a bike as a racer. However, cycling and running work a small set of muscles, weight training can help find balance, reduce risk of injury. Strength training has a place in almost every sport and there are sport-specific programs. For running I would suggest taking a look at Tom Holland's book or program or Hal Higdon program - he advises strength training but in a reduced form to focus on running or cross-training. He does NOT recommend it for beginners but does place it on the map, with a lower focus than cross training.
In any case - in all these programs you'll see strength training at a level to develop some various aspects of hypertrophy, strength and/or endurance. But none of these are Stronglift or Starting Strength like programs. My cycling program had winter as a big strength work period even then it was all about mixed volumes and not pure body building.
In terms of exercises themselves, I can recommend: Running Anatomy as a good book on core exercises (and then some) for specific aspects of running.
http://www.amazon.com/Running-Anatomy-Joseph-Puleo/dp/0736082301/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1361108467&sr=8-3
Third, training objectives should always include "success without injury" into the equation. I like finding the limit but when that limit puts you out of a race, it sucks. This means that a WT program should be built around recovery and strengthening weak areas. This is were a program like Holland's excels.
I think part of the key is how does this or that activity help on my long term goals - all arounder or sport specific activity.
And yes, lifting will result in initial losses in speed and running ability. These are transient. What is going on with neuromuscular adaptation and strength development, even long term fiber growth is counter to the efficiency of running but only for a while. As training advances, the focus returns to the primary sport and those strength gains will show up as pluses in endurance and speed. And injury free running!
As to running every day? I'm personally not going to recommend that as a blanket be all, end all solution to getting in place for a marathon. Build a base, strengthen that base by getting your miles in. Give yourself recovery time (identify over training from keeping a journal or the time it takes to return to resting HR, fatigue, etc. (If every 3rd run is a bad run - I'm over doing it. If every 5th run is meh, I'm ok.) This is more of a personal choice. I'm fine with 3-4 solid days (3 days of 45min to an hour + 1 long, slow day) - That leaves me with other days for everything else.
But - caveat, with this - I am not either an ultra-marathoner nor is running my only or even primary focus. I include it as part of being active - cycling will take over again for me.0 -
I'm also in a similar situation to some posters, though less so the OP.
I'm trying to combine 3 days of resistance training (squats/bench/deadlift/weighted pullup doing warmup + 3x5 or so) with some running, rock climbing and soon at some point, some cycling (done plenty before) and swimming (which I suck at).
Only just started the running as I was taking a week rest from the climbing to let my fingers recover.
Plan is to do the lifting and climbing the same day (Mon,Wed,Fri) and running other days (Tues/Thurs/maybe weekend) with ideally at least one proper 'rest' day.
All while trying to do a lean gains style cut program so 2450 on resistance days and 1450+any exercise on other days.
As for the point about a half marathon - I'd tend to agree that you SHOULDN'T need a massive amount of training.
Sure, so far the longest I've ever run is only around 8 miles, but I'd feel that if I adjusted my pace appropriately, I shouldn't need a massive amount more work to get there.
Vague aim to do an 'off-road' half-iron man tri in September, though may put that off for the year after.
Not looking to be competitive, just to finish in time.0 -
This is just my personal experience (so take that for what it's worth). I run 4 to 5 days per week, usually between 3 and 6 miles each time (so clearly not half marathon training) and also lift 3 days a week (NROLW). A typical week looks like:
Mon: 3.5 mile "easy" run, lift day
Tue: 3 mile temp run
Wed: 6 mile long/easdy run
Thursday: either 3 mile temp run, or 4 mile easy run, also lift day
Friday: Either 4 or 6 miles, easy
Saturday: lift day
Sunday: total rest day
So I'd say you can definitely run and lift. I haven't had to face up to tired legs on a run yet as a result of the lifting. If I'm a little sore, I just make that another easy run day and it seems to help my muscles recover even sometimes to do an easy run day after a lifting day. I think it's important to focus on what's important for YOU and what's within your capabilities. I can run 5 days a week and lift 3, but it means I usually only do one hard or tempo run a week. But running is also something I want to keep doing. I recognize I'd get better gains from lifting if I was running less, but I enjoy doing both so will probably keep doing this for a while. Then again, I'm running a bit less than a half marathon schedule, so maybe that helps too.0 -
Wow. Seriously great advice in here. I will think about bumping up my lifting to more than one day a week. I'm running 4-5 days a week because my cardio is bad and I need to work on it. I find if I don't run, and I bike or elliptical I take it easy on myself. Which is not what I'm trying to do. When I said I'm a beginner, I meant it, I ran a half two years ago, but I was lighter and it still took me 3 hours to finish it. At that point I was just happy to finish. I'm trying to get below the 3 hour mark for this half.0
-
I am getting the indication some believe true runners run 5-6 days a week. I am a runner first and have several runner friends. Many of them only run 3-4 times a week. There is actually a very popular book "Run Less Run Faster". It is not necessary to run 5-6 days a week and a lot of people can't run that often as it causes them injury.
What I can say is many runners will tell you strength training is important if you want to improve speed... just as important as speed training. Strength training helps even out the muscles.0 -
bump for future reference0
-
I am getting the indication some believe true runners run 5-6 days a week. I am a runner first and have several runner friends. Many of them only run 3-4 times a week. There is actually a very popular book "Run Less Run Faster". It is not necessary to run 5-6 days a week and a lot of people can't run that often as it causes them injury.
What I can say is many runners will tell you strength training is important if you want to improve speed... just as important as speed training. Strength training helps even out the muscles.
Thank you! I was actually getting annoyed at the thought that some don't consider others as serious runners or runners first bc they focus on lifting as well and/or don't run every day. I didn't know there were certain requirements to be considered a runner.0 -
thanks -- to read later0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions