Question for Weight Lifters

MaraDiaz

Hi all. Running into a problem. I do weights about every other day and I can't figure out why my joints and back are getting twingy but my muscles never get sore no matter how hard I work out?

I've upped the weight and lowered my reps in a deliberate attempt to get some muscle or at least preserve what I have while I lose this last ten or so pounds. Should I lower the weights and concentrate on heart rate, cardio, or whatever until I'm at goal and eating at maintenance? Is that the problem, or is it my technique? I'm still mostly using machines, by the way.

Gallowmere1984

is it my technique? I'm still mostly using machines, by the way.

Probably about half and half on both of these being your problem.

Machines should be used for accessory work, if at all. If you aren't using compound lifts to teach your muscles how to work together, you are likely focusing far more stress on your joints than is a good idea. For example, look at the leg extension: look at the position that it puts your knee in. Does that look like it would be a good idea to run a heavy weight with? Not so much.

Also, tendons and ligaments can take longer to strengthen than muscles. It sucks, but that's just how it works.

MaraDiaz

is it my technique? I'm still mostly using machines, by the way.

Probably about half and half on both of these being your problem.

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

Edit: Thanks even more for the info you edited to add! I'm going to be much more careful and eventually wean myself off those blasted machines.

Gallowmere1984

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

MaraDiaz

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

Gallowmere1984

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

I found that I did best at high weight low rep. Since my deficit was so harsh (1400 cal per day at 245 starting weight) I really couldn't afford many carbs either, as I needed most of my calories just to get a good protein count in for the day.

MaraDiaz

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

I found that I did best at high weight low rep. Since my deficit was so harsh (1400 cal per day at 245 starting weight) I really couldn't afford many carbs either, as I needed most of my calories just to get a good protein count in for the day.

That was part of my thinking with upping the weights and lowering the reps on those machines, but I can't afford to tear up my joints or spine so when I realized my muscles didn't hurt but I was getting twinges in my shoulder joints and back, I posted this thread. Maybe I'll try doing more free weights before maintenance after all, even if I can only do them for a few reps at a time. I really want to preserve the muscle I have and eventually add more!

Thanks again for your help!

Lunatic379

is it my technique? I'm still mostly using machines, by the way.

Probably about half and half on both of these being your problem.

Machines should be used for accessory work, if at all. If you aren't using compound lifts to teach your muscles how to work together, you are likely focusing far more stress on your joints than is a good idea. For example, look at the leg extension: look at the position that it puts your knee in. Does that look like it would be a good idea to run a heavy weight with? Not so much.

Also, tendons and ligaments can take longer to strengthen than muscles. It sucks, but that's just how it works.

I disagree with this post. Go to bodybuilding.com or search for kris gethin, he uses machines a lot in his workouts.

Typically it's caused from not enough healthy fats in your diet. Try a fish oil, or a flax oil. I prefer flax, 1 Tbl spoon a day. I just drink it down. It tastes horrible, but will help lubricate joints.

Lunatic379

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

MaraDiaz

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

I don't disagree and I used to eat my exercise calories back although I'm older, have shot my metabolism in the foot already with a yo-yo dieter past, and am very sedentary except my workouts.

I only have 10 pounds to go, trying to beat the heat (I tend to get very sick with asthma/allergies when it gets hot here) and then I'm going to fuel my body properly. Meanwhile, just trying to retain as much muscle as I can until I get this last pesky bit off me.

Lunatic379

It looks like your well on your way to meeting your goal. So you obviously know what you're doing. You've already lost 100 lbs, why change things up for the last 10?

Try the oils, fish or flax. They work great. Pill form, or liquid.

MaraDiaz

is it my technique? I'm still mostly using machines, by the way.

Probably about half and half on both of these being your problem.

Machines should be used for accessory work, if at all. If you aren't using compound lifts to teach your muscles how to work together, you are likely focusing far more stress on your joints than is a good idea. For example, look at the leg extension: look at the position that it puts your knee in. Does that look like it would be a good idea to run a heavy weight with? Not so much.

Also, tendons and ligaments can take longer to strengthen than muscles. It sucks, but that's just how it works.

I disagree with this post. Go to bodybuilding.com or search for kris gethin, he uses machines a lot in his workouts.

Typically it's caused from not enough healthy fats in your diet. Try a fish oil, or a flax oil. I prefer flax, 1 Tbl spoon a day. I just drink it down. It tastes horrible, but will help lubricate joints.

I take fish oil. Might add in flax oil, too. The thing about machines is, they might work for some people, but either I'm not one of them or I'm doing something very wrong. My muscles should be at least a tiny bit sore, right?


@Lunatic: In less than a month I will turn into a snotty, fatigued lump of allergy and asthma riddled uselessness. That is not even remotely an exaggeration. So I have to get this last ten off with exercise or risk having to starve it off with an even lower calorie diet when it gets hot or wait until November when my energy starts to come back.

I choose hurrying, the other alternatives are just unacceptable. I am going to try to continue with the gym and maybe some 4 am runs if the pollution dies down at night (sometimes it doesn't) but my experience trying that last year was I couldn't do it. Even if I can force myself I will be too fatigued to do the workouts I do now even at a calorie deficit.

d2footballJRC

Cissus Powder. Cissus Powder. Cissus Powder.

It tastes horrible, but it's amazing stuff when it comes to joint and ligament pain..

I also mega dose on fish oil, but I can tell when I stop taking Cissus Powder.

I'm a big free weight fan. Machines are great for some workouts, but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!

amy1612

Muscle soreness is not indicative of how good your workout was. In the slightest. Machines however don't encourage a full range of motion when lifting, which is way barbells and dumbbells are a better use of your time

MaraDiaz

Hm, I guess I shouldn't have assumed I needed to be sore. I just looked it up, and I've been living a lie! I do want a full range of motion, though and the least possible amount of joint strain.

Looking up studies on Cissus and other joint powders and potions now. If independent studies show results for any of it, I might add that, any help I can get is a good thing, especially for my spine.

So maybe I should go out and buy some cheaper fish oil capsules and flax capsules so I can increase the dosage. I'll research that, too.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!

d2footballJRC

Hm, I guess I shouldn't have assumed I needed to be sore. I just looked it up, and I've been living a lie! I do want a full range of motion, though and the least possible amount of joint strain.

Looking up studies on Cissus and other joint powders and potions now. If independent studies show results for any of it, I might add that, any help I can get is a good thing, especially for my spine.

So maybe I should go out and buy some cheaper fish oil capsules and flax capsules so I can increase the dosage. I'll research that, too.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!

Watch the dosage though. There is a point of too much. I try to stick around 3000-4000mg EPA/DHA daily. (Not fish oil pills mg, look at the EPA/DHA numbers.) Also you want to shoot for double EPA over DHA if you can, usually meaning triple strength branded fish oil for best results.

Actually talked about this awhile back..

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/450543-not-all-fish-oil-is-created-equal?hl=fish+oil+epa/dha&page=1#posts-8430678

amy1612

Hm, I guess I shouldn't have assumed I needed to be sore. I just looked it up, and I've been living a lie! I do want a full range of motion, though and the least possible amount of joint strain.

Looking up studies on Cissus and other joint powders and potions now. If independent studies show results for any of it, I might add that, any help I can get is a good thing, especially for my spine.

So maybe I should go out and buy some cheaper fish oil capsules and flax capsules so I can increase the dosage. I'll research that, too.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!

Fish oil is good, I also take glucosamine for joint health. Try doing mobility exercises and perhaps think about using a foam roller....theyre great for working out niggles.

d2footballJRC

Hm, I guess I shouldn't have assumed I needed to be sore. I just looked it up, and I've been living a lie! I do want a full range of motion, though and the least possible amount of joint strain.

Looking up studies on Cissus and other joint powders and potions now. If independent studies show results for any of it, I might add that, any help I can get is a good thing, especially for my spine.

So maybe I should go out and buy some cheaper fish oil capsules and flax capsules so I can increase the dosage. I'll research that, too.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!

Fish oil is good, I also take glucosamine for joint health. Try doing mobility exercises and perhaps think about using a foam roller....theyre great for working out niggles.

Foam Rollers are AWESOME.. I refused to use them for the longest time because I didn't want to look silly.. man I was missing out...

Vailara

I've found that if I'm doing an exercise frequently (more than once a week), then usually I don't get much muscle soreness afterwards, even if I've increased the weight. It's when I do something new or something that I haven't done for a while that I get pain.

I've found that machines seem to hurt my joints more than free weights.

amy1612

Foam Rollers are AWESOME.. I refused to use them for the longest time because I didn't want to look silly.. man I was missing out...

They're the best!! I've found that they're amazing for relieving and preventing stiffness....they've been a godsend as my deadlifts have increased,

MaraDiaz

*adds foam roller to shopping list*

Hm, and no, I changed my mind, I won't go THAT cheap on fish oil. Flax maybe, but not fish. Mercury bad!

Lunatic379

I'm a big free weight fan. Machines are great for some workouts, but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!

Been working out for over a year now, and never done either. I enjoy lifting a lot. If machines are good enough for pro body builders, then they are good enough for me. I'm not saying I only use machines, but use of machines is not a bad thing.

I work out by myself, so squatting to failure doesn't sound like a good idea to me without a spotter.

d2footballJRC

I'm a big free weight fan. Machines are great for some workouts, but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!

Been working out for over a year now, and never done either. I enjoy lifting a lot. If machines are good enough for pro body builders, then they are good enough for me. I'm not saying I only use machines, but use of machines is not a bad thing.

I work out by myself, so squatting to failure doesn't sound like a good idea to me without a spotter.

#1. never said not to use machines at all.. hence.. machines are great for some workouts.
#2. never said you have to squat to failure.
#3. power racks. (Better than a spotter most of the time!)

;-)

d2footballJRC

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

This isn't 100% true. BCAA and high protein can greatly help in this manner. You most likely aren't going to build any muscle unless you are a freak of nature, but you can stop Muscle catabolism with BCAA's and high levels of protein.

(http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/bcaas-are-anti-catabolic-study-shows/)

Lunatic379

Going to failure is how I choose to workout. So when you say "but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!" it kind of implies that I can't be enjoying working out without doing those exercises. I enjoy working out, and don't do either of those. It sounded like you were pushing free weights over machines, I just choose to disagree that one is better than the other. If I misread your post, I apologize.

Lunatic379

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

This isn't 100% true. BCAA and high protein can greatly help in this manner. You most likely aren't going to build any muscle unless you are a freak of nature, but you can stop Muscle catabolism with BCAA's and high levels of protein.

(http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/bcaas-are-anti-catabolic-study-shows/)

You just proved my point with your own post. The reason you're suggesting taking the BCAA's is to limit the catabolism of muscle that is going to occur from the low calorie diet.

d2footballJRC

Going to failure is how I choose to workout. So when you say "but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!" it kind of implies that I can't be enjoying working out without doing those exercises. I enjoy working out, and don't do either of those. It sounded like you were pushing free weights over machines, I just choose to disagree that one is better than the other. If I misread your post, I apologize.

I do push free weights over machines. (They are better.)

Research has shown us that free weights promote quicker strength gains and they require more balance and coordination. Free weights use more muscle groups and tear muscle fibers than machines, per workout. Add in free weights allow a greater range of motion and are cheaper then machines on averages. There isn't much of a down side besides the need for a spotter or a power rack.

d2footballJRC

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

This isn't 100% true. BCAA and high protein can greatly help in this manner. You most likely aren't going to build any muscle unless you are a freak of nature, but you can stop Muscle catabolism with BCAA's and high levels of protein.

(http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/bcaas-are-anti-catabolic-study-shows/)

You just proved my point with your own post. The reason you're suggesting taking the BCAA's is to limit the catabolism of muscle that is going to occur from the low calorie diet.

Or you can just eat high protein, which will give you the same effect as BCAA's. You are making things too black and white.

Lunatic379

Thanks for the answer! Because I'm still low calorie my endurance is not what it should be for doing free weights. I better just stop trying to add more to the machines until I go maintenance then.

I wouldn't quite go that far. It's really an individual thing, but I have been increasing my weight and/or reps at every single workout since I started lifting, and up until a few days ago, I was in a 900 calorie daily deficit for that entire time (five months).

ETA: about weaning from the machines, yeah, definitely. They serve an excellent purpose as I mentioned, as accessories. Anyone who bases their entire strength regimen around them is setting themselves up for disappointment, imo.

Well I'm low carb as well as low calorie, oddly I find I can jog okay and pretty much walk until I'm bored silly and done with it for that reason and never have issues, but weights fatigue me. When I go maintenance I might try playing with those numbers a bit to find something that lets me work out harder without bringing back the horrible cravings.

When you have a very low calorie diet, your body will use muscle for energy. That's why very low calorie diets are NOT recommended for building muscle. Not only will you not build muscle, you will start using what muscle you do have for energy. You are shooting yourself in the foot with a low calorie diet.

This isn't 100% true. BCAA and high protein can greatly help in this manner. You most likely aren't going to build any muscle unless you are a freak of nature, but you can stop Muscle catabolism with BCAA's and high levels of protein.

(http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/bcaas-are-anti-catabolic-study-shows/)

You just proved my point with your own post. The reason you're suggesting taking the BCAA's is to limit the catabolism of muscle that is going to occur from the low calorie diet.

Or you can just eat high protein, which will give you the same effect as BCAA's. You are making things too black and white.

Again, I agree with your post, but you can't eat high protein if you're only eating 1000 calories. Not much room for high protein in that diet. Your arguing with me, and I agree with you, that's what I'm pointing out.

LJCannon

:drinker: bump

Lunatic379

Going to failure is how I choose to workout. So when you say "but how can you be lifting without enjoying squats and deadlifts with free weights!!" it kind of implies that I can't be enjoying working out without doing those exercises. I enjoy working out, and don't do either of those. It sounded like you were pushing free weights over machines, I just choose to disagree that one is better than the other. If I misread your post, I apologize.

I do push free weights over machines. (They are better.)

Research has shown us that free weights promote quicker strength gains and they require more balance and coordination. Free weights use more muscle groups and tear muscle fibers than machines, per workout. Add in free weights allow a greater range of motion and are cheaper then machines on averages. There isn't much of a down side besides the need for a spotter or a power rack.

I see no problem with isolating muscle groups. And there are plenty of body builders who talk about this all over the internet. So to say (they are better) is only your opinion and is not shared by all body builders. Sorry I have to take their word over yours.