why is 1200 cal/day too low?

TheFitnessTutor

If you were lost in the woods with only 1200 calories, would you want your metabolism to slow down? If you needed to run for 2 hours a day while you found your way home(ahem, ahem, cough cough, to the over-exercisers out there) would you want your metabolism to slow down or speed up? Would you want to burn more fat or less fat? Simple.

This makes no sense to me.

We are talking about energy use. When you say, "burn fat" you are talking about your body giving you fuel.

Are you saying that our bodies are able to get more or less energy out of the same amount of fat, depending on the situation? Our bodies have a mechanism for running at peak inefficiency? Any understanding of evolution makes that hard to believe.

You could mean that our bodies just stop giving us the energy to use but that won't work because you won't be able to find the food you need or run the 2 miles/day to get home.

I try to steer clear of evolution as this has spiritual ramifications for some people. Let me ask you this, are you aware that the metabolism slows down and speeds up? We're not a closed system. A calorie is not a calorie. There is also heat and waste to deal with. What makes the metabolism speed up and slow down? Basically you do understand this if you're mentioning evolution. It would be how we got here, and relate to hibernation, etc. During long bouts of no food we don't burn the same amount of energy.

TheFitnessTutor

The days I eat more than 1200 it always causes a gain for me. Everyone is different. If I am hungry I eat more but if not I dont bother. I have lost 50 pounds in 13 months so I think that is slow and healthy for me!

Everyone is not different.

You might gain weight because you NEED to. It might be your metabolism's last dieing horah of an attempt to protect itself! At 1200 calories???? You're planning on eating 1200 calories a day the rest of your life? Every chance your body gets it's gonna want to store! How many calories a day do you think your heart alone burns?

I appreciate your input and have hopefully learned something from your thoughtful responses here,. But you seem to be contrasicting yourself, or I am misunderstanding. You have mentioned a couple times, including above, that "everyone is not different". But in your list for the op, point number 8, you said this:

"8. Anecdotes should be taken lightly if you're serious. Sure many people have done just fine on 1200 calories. But you're not them, you don't have the same expenditure they do, you don't have the same genes they do(to an extent, but you get the point)."

Can you clarify/reconcile that for me?

Yes I can't always cover my bases once I start "running my mouth", but will be doing this more on video soon. It's kinda a balance between the two, or yin and yang as I always talk about. We are all different of course, but we all have the same systems, checks and balances in place, barring disease or malfunction. That's my point. Also the line "we're all different" , if you notice, is usually used as a cop out for, "well, I'm done, I don't know how to describe this any more differently or in depth." That's just the way it is.

Helloitsdan

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

TheFitnessTutor

aaaaaaand

Looks like Gifsoup will be going into my favorites.

tootoop224

The days I eat more than 1200 it always causes a gain for me. Everyone is different. If I am hungry I eat more but if not I dont bother. I have lost 50 pounds in 13 months so I think that is slow and healthy for me!

Everyone is not different.

You might gain weight because you NEED to. It might be your metabolism's last dieing horah of an attempt to protect itself! At 1200 calories???? You're planning on eating 1200 calories a day the rest of your life? Every chance your body gets it's gonna want to store! How many calories a day do you think your heart alone burns?

If everyone is not different, then why do some people stall on 1,200 calories or are starving, while it works fine for others? Also, why do some people feel an obsessive need to eat a lot and get fat while others don't and stay thin? and so many other things that makes us different.

ANSWER: You are wrong. Everyone is different.

Pretty much no. The basic biological processes are the same in everyone, the variability one sees in weight gain are a function of metabolism - but the basics are the same for everyone. Eating significantly below TDEE will result in a metabolic slow down, hormones from the thyroid, fat tissue, etc have a regulatory effect on glucose storage and lypolisis, just to name two of the processes in weight loss.
While eating at 1200 or lower can work ok for weight loss for some there are some significant risks of not eating enough variety to assure micro-nutrient needs which will have a long term effect on things like mental or hormonal function. It will basically guarantee metabolic down regulation and if the gap is large, it will also increase muscle catabolism. So you lose the weight, but then the body functions are reduced and put at some risk for either rapid weight gain (yo-yo effect), eating disorders and/or immune issues. This does not mean that everyone that eats at these levels will necessarily get these - but the likelihood is higher. If, for you, you've avoid these issues - congratulations! But why suggest that others play with fire when it is possible to do it with less risk.

Just like one can smoke a lifetime without getting ill, it isn't the best practice, in a health-focused life.

Wow!!! A well thought out and articulated position, presented in a positive and non-judgemental way. This will never work. Now please go back and change your post to include insults and intolorence, or your forum privileges will be revoked immediately!!!! Oh, it would also be helpful if you could correct someones grammar and spelling occasionally too.
:laugh:

CristinaL1983

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

.7g protein per lb lbm for me = 89 g protein/ day (I have my goals set to 90g/day)
.45g fat per lb lbm for me = 56.7 g fat/day (I have my goal set slightly lower because I did a 40/30/30) but frequently get there.

356+510=866 1200-866=334 left for carbs. Since most of my carbs are veggies (I've never liked bread/pasta much), I get quite a bit of mileage out of that.

Like I posted earlier, I have had my LBM checked twice and it had gone up a couple lbs over the three months (I lost about 30 lbs and quite a bit of body fat). I have not experienced any hormonal issues or anything like that.

I have not had my BMR checked by a pro yet though I'm thinking about doing so just to have the number. For me, 1200 calories is perfectly adequate for loss of body fat and maintenance of LBM.

Again, I think that BMR can vary so much from person to person that it is a much more individual thing than can be represented by an online estimator.

Helloitsdan

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

.7g protein per lb lbm for me = 89 g protein/ day (I have my goals set to 90g/day)
.45g fat per lb lbm for me = 56.7 g fat/day (I have my goal set slightly lower because I did a 40/30/30) but frequently get there.

356+510=866 1200-866=334 left for carbs. Since most of my carbs are veggies (I've never liked bread/pasta much), I get quite a bit of mileage out of that.

Like I posted earlier, I have had my LBM checked twice and it had gone up a couple lbs over the three months (I lost about 30 lbs and quite a bit of body fat). I have not experienced any hormonal issues or anything like that.

I have not had my BMR checked by a pro yet though I'm thinking about doing so just to have the number. For me, 1200 calories is perfectly adequate for loss of body fat and maintenance of LBM.

Again, I think that BMR can vary so much from person to person that it is a much more individual thing than can be represented by an online estimator.

Okay.
What's your

Age
Height
Weight
Body fat%
Occupation
Routine

Just so we can be on the same page.

tootoop224

I'm losing plenty of fat (not muscle) on 1200 cal a day. I don't feel like I'm starving all the time and have had my BF% checked a couple times. My LBM is slightly up and BF% and weight is down.

What works for one person doesn't always work for another. The BMR calculators online give you the average for people of your height and weight. Each person's BMR can be extremely different. There have been posts from people (on this forum) who have actually had their BMR or RMR tested and found it either much higher or much lower (as low as 1000 when it was estimated at closer to 1600). The only way to know for sure is to have it tested. TDEE is based on the estimated BMR and can be farther off (because of the multiplication factor).

If you eat 1200 calories and are starving all the time, your BMR is probably much higher (though there is really no way to know without getting tested). If you have to force yourself to eat 1600+ calories and are not losing weight, your BMR is probably lower.

My point is that the process is the same for everyone (eat less calories than you expend to lose in a sustainable way) but the numbers will not always be the same.

Using a bit of trial and error you can find the best spot for you. If you are not losing weight at 1600 calories, drop it down. If you lose a lot of weight at 1200 calories and you experience decreases in strength or feel weak or fatigued or dizzy, bump it up.

If you are concerned about losing LBM, you can get a DXA scan (the most accurate way to determine BF% and lean body mass/muscle mass) for less than $100. My university does it for $75 for students $90 for people who are not affiliated with the university and offers a package deal where they will discount the price and do two DXA scans 3 months apart.

1200 calories is considered the minimum because nutrients can be relatively easily achieved and still set most people at a caloric deficit.

There is no absolute answer and again, for most people it is a bit of trial and error. Do what works for you (in terms of both weight loss goals and fitness goals. I know I'm doing what works for me and not what works for someone else.

Two intelligent posts in the same thread!!! What the h3ll is going on here?!?!?! :laugh:

nokanjaijo

I try to steer clear of evolution as this has spiritual ramifications for some people. Let me ask you this, are you aware that the metabolism slows down and speeds up? We're not a closed system. A calorie is not a calorie. There is also heat and waste to deal with. What makes the metabolism speed up and slow down? Basically you do understand this if you're mentioning evolution. It would be how we got here, and relate to hibernation, etc. During long bouts of no food we don't burn the same amount of energy.

I don't understand why you feel the need to say that we aren't a closed system. I understand that very well. My confusion is that you seem to be claiming that, at certain levels of calorie restriction, the system becomes *more* closed. I am asking you to explain that.

Animals that hibernate do so by not using energy. The way an idling car won't use as much fuel as one being driven around. They sleep, their heart rate slows considerably, they stop using as much energy. There is a frog that basically shuts down completely, as though it were dead, using no energy until it is activated by moisture.

So, it makes sense if you are saying that low calorie diets will make you lethargic and that, in turn, will cause you to use less calories.

But that doesn't seem to be what you are saying. You were talking about running 2 miles a day making your metabolism slow if you aren't getting enough calories, right? And you made it seem like it was so obvious. Simple was the word you used.

CristinaL1983

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

.7g protein per lb lbm for me = 89 g protein/ day (I have my goals set to 90g/day)
.45g fat per lb lbm for me = 56.7 g fat/day (I have my goal set slightly lower because I did a 40/30/30) but frequently get there.

356+510=866 1200-866=334 left for carbs. Since most of my carbs are veggies (I've never liked bread/pasta much), I get quite a bit of mileage out of that.

Like I posted earlier, I have had my LBM checked twice and it had gone up a couple lbs over the three months (I lost about 30 lbs and quite a bit of body fat). I have not experienced any hormonal issues or anything like that.

I have not had my BMR checked by a pro yet though I'm thinking about doing so just to have the number. For me, 1200 calories is perfectly adequate for loss of body fat and maintenance of LBM.

Again, I think that BMR can vary so much from person to person that it is a much more individual thing than can be represented by an online estimator.

Okay.
What's your

Age
Height
Weight
Body fat%
Occupation
Routine

Just so we can be on the same page.

I'm 29, 5'7'', 171 lbs, 26.something % bf (I've lost about 2-3 lbs since the last time I got it checked), I'm a student right now when I'm not in school I manage a bar full time (obviously a change in my activity level which I reflect appropriately in my caloric intake), routine varies a bit but a general idea is about 3x/ week heavy lifting at the gym, other than that I sit my butt in a chair in class and take notes and sit my butt in a chair at home and do school work. Occasional differences some days more active than others largely dependent on my homework/study load and my kiddo.

dqgirl1

I also feel that it depends on your food choices...I can eat healthy meals all day and feel stuffed but once I add junk in or pasta/bread/lots of cheese I feel starved and need to up my calories...I have lost 53 lbs on about 1200 a day and have worked out at least 4 days or more/week....I think it depends on the person......and your lifestyle

MyChocolateDiet

Let me guess... you selected "sedentary" and "2 pounds a week." I did it, too, when I joined. Then I did some math and within a few weeks, realized that wasn't appropriate for me. It's not appropriate for most people. It's generally accepted as the lowest anyone should go without medical supervision. The site won't go lower than that.

For most people, it's overkill. Like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer.

You only have 20 pounds you want to lose. Aim for one pound a week, and when you get within 10-15 pounds of your goal, select half pound a week. Get regular exercise including strength training. Eat most of your exercise calories. Treat the protein and fat goals as minimums to reach, and carbs as a maximum to stay under. Track your progress through measurements, how clothes fit, and progress photos, not just the scale.

For me, I got 1200 when I first started, too. As it turns out, my TDEE (total daily energy expenditure - what it takes to maintain my weight) at my goal weight is about 2300 calories. Yeah, to lose weight, you need to eat less than your body burns, but not so drastically that you're only eating half of what your body burns. Just 10-20% below is ideal for healthy weight loss.

easiest to understand post regarding this I've come across in all my experience on MFP. (1.5 months lol.)

Helloitsdan

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

.7g protein per lb lbm for me = 89 g protein/ day (I have my goals set to 90g/day)
.45g fat per lb lbm for me = 56.7 g fat/day (I have my goal set slightly lower because I did a 40/30/30) but frequently get there.

356+510=866 1200-866=334 left for carbs. Since most of my carbs are veggies (I've never liked bread/pasta much), I get quite a bit of mileage out of that.

Like I posted earlier, I have had my LBM checked twice and it had gone up a couple lbs over the three months (I lost about 30 lbs and quite a bit of body fat). I have not experienced any hormonal issues or anything like that.

I have not had my BMR checked by a pro yet though I'm thinking about doing so just to have the number. For me, 1200 calories is perfectly adequate for loss of body fat and maintenance of LBM.

Again, I think that BMR can vary so much from person to person that it is a much more individual thing than can be represented by an online estimator.

Okay.
What's your

Age
Height
Weight
Body fat%
Occupation
Routine

Just so we can be on the same page.

I'm 29, 5'7'', 171 lbs, 26.something % bf (I've lost about 2-3 lbs since the last time I got it checked), I'm a student right now when I'm not in school I manage a bar full time (obviously a change in my activity level which I reflect appropriately in my caloric intake), routine varies a bit but a general idea is about 3x/ week heavy lifting at the gym, other than that I sit my butt in a chair in class and take notes and sit my butt in a chair at home and do school work. Occasional differences some days more active than others largely dependent on my homework/study load and my kiddo.

At your height and weight+activity you could lose fat with minimal LBM lost eating 1600-2200/day.
You'll have better energy as well as a higher hormonal state that fosters a better fat loss environment.

MyChocolateDiet

Lets all do some simple math shall we?

If we need .70-1g protein per pound of lbm to maintain LBM.
And we need .45-.70g fat per pound of LBM to maintain good hormonal levels.
If protein =4cals per gram and fat =9cals per gram....
Most people at 1200cals won't get proper nutrients from food to maintain LBM while cutting nor would the help their hormonal state.

Discuss

you said "simple math" but for some reason...

MyChocolateDiet

MyChocolateDiet

ladyraven68

1200 may not be too low, for tiny sedentary people, but why would you want to go that low when most people would lose on 1500+.

All that is needed for optimal fat loss is a moderate sustainable deficit.

CristinaL1983

At your height and weight+activity you could lose fat with minimal LBM lost eating 1600-2200/day.
You'll have better energy as well as a higher hormonal state that fosters a better fat loss environment.

Like I said before. I haven't lost ANY LBM. If you want to argue that point, I can direct you to the DXA scan experts at the University that did my DXA scans.

I have tried to lose weight at a higher caloric intake and did not lose any. Any BMR you are calculating for me is just an estimate. I will probably have it actually tested at some point and will not be surprised at all to find my BMR/RMR is less than 1200.

This is the most frustrating thing about these boards to me. I have had DXA scans done that show that I have gained (not lost) LBM (very small gain so I call it a wash and say it was about the same). I am losing weight at a very steady rate (again fat not muscle) but instead of understanding that BMR is an estimate when done by any online calculator and is not necessarily a realistic number, people continue to treat it as though it is an absolute. It is not, it is an average. I have not suffered any hormonal side effects, my blood work is all great.

As someone who has been in excellent shape before and gained weight as a result of continuing to eat like I was as active as I was before I had 3 surgeries, I take my weight loss as well as maintenance of my LBM very seriously. Aside from the DXA scans, I have blood work done regularly by my doctor to make sure I do not go into a vitamin or iron deficit and to make sure that my hormones and thyroid function are right on track, etc...
I have experienced no drop in energy levels either and as I have dropped fat, my energy level has naturally gone up.

Despite all of this, you are implying (or outright saying) that by following the estimates given by an online calculator, instead of what actually works (by all scientific measurements available to me) I would have greater success.

It just doesn't make any sense. What about an online estimation could possibly be more accurate than real life results. How could you possibly understand how my body works better than I could.

babydiego87

OP you're not going to find a definitive answer here. I started MFP the beginning of this month and have been doing 1200 AND eating 80% of my exercise calories back. My ticker speaks for itself regarding my progress and I have found this easy enough to stick to. However, in the long term if I'm able to sustain is another.

Trial and error, patience and tweaking is all part and parcel of weight loss IMO.

bearwith

It has told me 1400 cals and I have a stone to lose. I sometimes go over by 100-200 but it is doable if u do not touch bread