Losing Fat / Gaining Muscle

pattyproulx

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to nutrition and fitness but there's a bit of a gap that I'm hoping someone can fill for me.

I understand that the general rule is that you can't simultaneously gain muscle and lose fat. The reason is that to gain muscle, you have to have a calorie surplus, and to lose fat, you need to be at a deficit.

Now I also understand, that even at a deficit, you want to work out and get your protein so that you *maintain* your muscle mass while you lose the fat.

Where the gap is for me is if you ate at maintenance every day and lifted heavy, according to this logic, wouldn't your body just remain unchanged. If you need a surplus of calories to gain muscle, and a deficiency to lose fat, and you can't do both simultaneously, wouldn't you just be at a complete standstill in terms of body composition, no matter how hard you worked out, if you ate exactly at maintenance every day?

Love_Metal

I think it is possible for people who have never exercised. Their capacity to gain is much greater. Cleaning up their diet and lifting some weights will stimulate growth for them. Obviously as they progress it becomes harder

pattyproulx

I think it is possible for people who have never exercised. Their capacity to gain is much greater. Cleaning up their diet and lifting some weights will stimulate growth for them. Obviously as they progress it becomes harder

Correct - I had that in my original post but changed it to 'general rule'. From what I understand, as you've stated, beginners for the first month or so can gain muscle and lose fat simulatenously. (Is it longer than this?)

But for someone like me who has worked out for a while, is it true that my body composition would remain unchanged if I ate to maintenance, no matter how hard I lifted. That just doesn't seem right to me. I've never tried it, but it just doesn't really seem to make sense.

Obviously, nobody will ever be able to eat at exactly maintenance, but why I find this de-motivational is that I'm eating at a slight deficit and I feel that the hard work I'm doing in the gym is almost pointless since I can't really gain muscle. Couldn't I just lift enough to maintain my muscle and come up to the exact same thing?

yankeedownsouth

I am in the exact same position as you, and I don't know the answer either!

cwolfman13

At maintenance I would think you could still reduce your BF% and add a bit of muscle, thus changing your body comp...just wouldn't be that bulk, bodybuilding muscle...but I'm fairly new to lifting so I'm not positive about that. Also, in RE to lifting while at a deficit, you can most definitely gain strength and maintain muscle mass, so that's the benefit as I see it.

pattyproulx

At maintenance I would think you could still reduce your BF% and add a bit of muscle, thus changing your body comp

But the prevailing theory states is that you can't *add* muscle without a calorie surplus, or lose fat without a deficit. So if your muscle mass and fat mass can't change at maintenance, your BF% would have to remain the same as well.

Also, in RE to lifting while at a deficit, you can most definitely gain strength and maintain muscle mass, so that's the benefit as I see it.

You're right that strength gain could likely occur. What gets me is that if I lose at a slow-ish pace, I probably don't have to lift crazy hard to maintain my current muscle mass. So where's the motivation to lift beyond that threshold if I can't gain the extra muscle mass anyhow.


I'm thinking I should probably just do it and not worry about it too much. I like to go about things in a scientific and logical manner though so I'm just hesitant to continue hitting the gym hard in hopes that I get stronger, despite the fact that according to my own logic, assuming what everyone claims to be true is true, it won't really make much of a difference.

Dlacenere

http://www.burnthefatblog.com/archives/2010/09/how-to-gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time-2.php

TerranFla1

The way I understand it is that you have to maintain protein levels or lose muscle when losing weight or you will risk going into anaerobic mode and breaking down muscle. Conversely, you need to lower your calorie intake and burn more calories to lose weight. Proteins do contain calories, but the calories we need to reduce are the "empty" carbs that contain no nutrition (ex. alcoholic beverages, calories from fat) while maintaining protein levels with some associated calories. So, it is more of a protein/carb or calorie balancing act, than a pure surplus/deficit.

bostonwolf

Great link. I'd also point you towards Tim Ferris' blog. His second book focused on body hacking and part of it was how to gain large amounts of muscle in a month without gaining far.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/

Take a look.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I've been averaging around maintenance for about a year now but working out consistently. My body NOT changed.

mryak750

I'm already big...meaning big, with fat and muscle underneath...what i want to know is can you lose fat while and create muscle definition....I dont want bigger muscles...i just want to be able to see some definition with the muscles i already have....

yankeedownsouth

I'm already big...meaning big, with fat and muscle underneath...what i want to know is can you lose fat while and create muscle definition....I dont want bigger muscles...i just want to be able to see some definition with the muscles i already have....

This you can do by lifting heavy and eating at a deficit with plenty of protein to maintain muscle mass.

pattyproulx

Awesome! Thanks for the great links. And that's too bad to hear busylady. I guess that's a trap I'll have to avoid.
I'll do what I can and hopefully see some results. If I don't get much for results after a month, I'll switch it up.

I'm already big...meaning big, with fat and muscle underneath...what i want to know is can you lose fat while and create muscle definition....I dont want bigger muscles...i just want to be able to see some definition with the muscles i already have....

Ya, as yankeedownsouth mentioned, lifting weight and eating protein but maintaining a deficit should help you achieve your goals.

Your muscles are defined, they're just covered by fat now. By getting rid of it, the definition will show.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

Why don't you want to do bulk/cut cycles?

waldo56

To be truly at maintenance is a merely theoretical state that would require perfect balance at every moment.

The reality is there is error in calorie counts. There is error in your counting methodology. Sometimes you go long stretches between meals, sometimes the opposite. Eating at maintenence, these should all average out to pretty much a net affect of zero, however you will waiver haphazardly between anabolic and catabolic states, as long as you consistently strength train and take in adequate nutrients above and beyond calories (mostly protein), over time this random fluctuation will cause you to lose fat and gain muscle without a change in scale weight.

But this is an extremely ineffient way to build muscle and lose fat. Doing one then the other is far more efficient. What may take 6 months bulking/cutting may take 2 years recomping (for example in the last year bulking/cutting, I've lost a grand total of 2 pounds, but I've gained 21 lbs of muscle and have lost 23 lbs of fat, decreasing my BF% by 11%; were I to try to have done both simultaneously, that would have taken 2-3 years, at least).

NRBreit

My experience with lifting hard and maintaining constant weight is that you will achieve a super-slow recomp (years of minimal gains). I did this in my late teens/early twenties. I got leaner but I feel like a wasted a lot of prime muscle building years because I didn't have my eating right.

DavPul

Where the gap is for me is if you ate at maintenance every day and lifted heavy, according to this logic, wouldn't your body just remain unchanged. If you need a surplus of calories to gain muscle, and a deficiency to lose fat, and you can't do both simultaneously, wouldn't you just be at a complete standstill in terms of body composition, no matter how hard you worked out, if you ate exactly at maintenance every day?

In my experience you would gain a bit of musculature while lowering your bf%. I always called it 'consolidating' but the term that's popular now is recomposition

ChrisLindsay9

I understand that the general rule is that you can't simultaneously gain muscle and lose fat. The reason is that to gain muscle, you have to have a calorie surplus, and to lose fat, you need to be at a deficit.

There are only three ways you can gain muscle and lose fat of which I'm aware: beginners to weight training (this was me last year), people who are coming back to it after a lengthy break, and people who are taking steroids.

Chikipiwi

bump to read later

Love_Metal

I honestly think in the end your best bet is to split these two goals up for maxium gains. If we take a por bodybuilder for example, they will have an off season and on for a reason, and generally fluctuate between 50-60 lbs to their actual contest weight.

Now I am not saying you should do that, but if you think about someone whose entire life is dedicated to the building of more muscle it makes sense. You will be most anabolic in a calorie driven environment which will allow you to make maximum gains in strength. More strength=more muscle.

I would not get depressed as you lose bodyfat, because you are getting to see hard work finally show through. If its not as much mass as you would like to have there is always next time (building cycle) But i would focus on STRENGTH and keeping your numbers up while cutting to maintain strength.

ncashman

I've been losing body fat but gaining muscle and have been doing crossfit for a year now so its not still new (not to mention I worked out before crossfit). the progress is smaller now but the percentages are changing still. I eat strict paleo - no dairy, grain, processed foods etc even avoid all the little additives like guar gum as much as humanly possible and I eat high fat, high protein low carb. It works for my body. I've put on about 10 lbs and since my body fat percentage keeps going down and my clothes still fit and I don't look any fatter I can only assume most of that is muscle (not to mention I'm getting stronger and can feel and see larger muscles). Ones you've gone past that newbie stage where changes are so rapid its pretty frustrating but keep at it!